Not a Good Day with the Building Inspector

[Deleted User]

Sorry folks, I have to vent. So I am building a small addition (7 ' x 11") on my kitchen which will become an eating area and free up some space in an otherwise cramped floor plan. Playing by the book here, got a building permit and have had all the requisite inspections. In order to get the framing inspected had to hire an electrician to wire the new building. No problem, hired a licensed electrical contractor, they pulled the permit and did the work. Went for the electrical inspection yesterday. Inspector looked and saw there was a new smoke detector. Asked if the other smoke detectors in the house were hardwired ? I replied no. Long story short, they will not approve the new electrical work unless I get the other smoke detectors hardwired and they all have to be interconnected. Bummed out about this because my house is completely finished. I contacted my electrician to find out where to go from here. I am wondering how many additional thousand dollars this will cost not to mention having my house hacked up so they can pull wiring. GRRRRRRRRRR ! :evil:

BeefJerky

That sounds like a big load of BS to me.

decal

If I were you, I'd go to the County Code office and talk with a supervisor. I can't see them making you redo the whole house. There has to be a way around this. Perhaps changing the new detector to battery power like your existing ones.You may have to file a grievance and apply for a waiver. Inspectors don't know everything, even though they think they do!! BTW, I have never heard of smoke detectors being mandatory. At least not here in Florida. Good luck.

txcoastal1

Before you spend thousands and if you live in a 2-story house that would be a bear to rewire the smokes, I would call a fire/security company and install a UL wireless home system that if you decided, you could also have monitored...Honeywell formally Ademco has had wireless UL systems for years

Cheers
Ron

heiney9

I would fight it all the way to the top. This is the typical B.S. it seems all cities/counties go through on various issues when it comes to the City inspection. I'd fight it as far as you can before spending more money on redoing the other detectors.

H9

disneyjoe7

Ok, sorry but being the fact I worked as an Alarm Tech once, and played with inspector's at times. You're lossing a flight. The old school way is to do a 3/14 romex to other smoke detectors, the 3rd wire will make the other smokes horn work if one should go off. Today I think they make smoke detectors which will work with 2/14 wire (You don't need the 3rd wire) or you could wire it to a ceiling light, a smiple hardward work.

Steve


But can't find anything that works with 2 wire only.

WilliamM2

When I put an addition on in 2006, I was also told that the fire alarms had to be brought up to current code. Hardwired and all connected together. 1 in each bedroom, and hallway. I was told this had to be done with any addition. I have a single story home, and did the work myself, so it only took a couple of hours and about $100. I took the opportunity to make two of them smoke/carbon monoxide detectors, and consider it a nice safety upgrade. I only had one detector in the whole house before, although it was hardwired. Code in 1975 apparently.

Don't fight it, you will lose.

Upstatemax

Thats the problem with doing new work on an older home... Once you open it up, it ALL needs to be brought up to current code.

My Father remodels homes and he is very careful about it. He usually has a higher quote than others, because he gives you a REAL quote...

The conversation usually goes; "Wow, your a lot more than XYZ...", "Can I look at what they gave you?", "here you go", "Ok, they forgot that you'll have to update this and this and this... So yes, my price is higher but they would be coming back non stop looking for more money to bring it to code."

Drenis

It's really all dependent on what your building code laws are for where you live. Hardwired smoke detectors are NOT required by code here.

nooshinjohn

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Ok, sorry but being the fact I worked as an Alarm Tech once, and played with inspector's at times. You're lossing a flight. The old school way is to do a 3/14 romex to other smoke detectors, the 3rd wire will make the other smokes horn work if one should go off. Today I think they make smoke detectors which will work with 2/14 wire (You don't need the 3rd wire) or you could wire it to a ceiling light, a smiple hardward work.

Steve


But can't find anything that works with 2 wire only.

Correct me if I am wrong on this, but are'nt smoke detectors a low voltage application? Connecting them to a light in the room is not going to work without voltage reduction. The requirement was also that they be wired together, so again, what you suggest will not work. Sounds like a bunch od bs to me nap, but it is probably legal. When they made the law, they were likely trying to come up with a way to put more money in the elecrician's pockets by making everything else in the house mandatory as well.

disneyjoe7

John,

There's hardwired which are powered by AC 120vac and connected by Romax wire. The home builder does this smoke detector. There's low power smokes detector that work on 12vdc in a residence usually, but commercially they are 24vdc, by an alarm system.

WilliamM2

In the US, it's part of the NFPA 72 National Fire Alarm Code.

Correct me if I am wrong on this, but aren't smoke detectors a low voltage application? Connecting them to a light in the room is not going to work without voltage reduction. The requirement was also that they be wired together, so again, what you suggest will not work.

The voltage transformer is built into the fire alarm, they also must have 9v battery backup. AS far as wiring them together, you use 14/3, the red wire carries the signal from one alarm to the next, the black, white, and ground are wired like any other circuit.

Upstatemax

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Sounds like a bunch od bs to me nap, but it is probably legal. When they made the law, they were likely trying to come up with a way to put more money in the elecrician's pockets by making everything else in the house mandatory as well.

Trust me, they could care less about more money in the pocket of the contractors...

It all about the letter of the law. Once you open this stuff up, it all needs to conform to current code.

If your house is 30+ years old, you have a lot of work to catch up on. A lot has changed since then for almost every state/county and a lot of it is electrical. You have to idiot proof a house now.

disneyjoe7

Kidde i12060 the i being interconnectable, but I see they should be wired to the same circuit. That doesn't save money, running 14/2 vs. 14/3 saves nothing.


Could you remove the smoke detector instead, then to bring the whole house updated?

WilliamM2

Upstatemax wrote: »

Trust me, they could care less about more money in the pocket of the contractors...

It all about the letter of the law. Once you open this stuff up, it all needs to conform to current code.

If your house is 30+ years old, you have a lot of work to catch up on. A lot has changed since then for almost every state/county and a lot of it is electrical. You have to idiot proof a house now.

Yep, the local electrical codes here were quite strict in the 70's, so I was lucky, the fire alarms were the only thing not up to current code.

Now I also wanted to add another 1/2 bathroom, which meant I needed a new well, pump, and drainfield, to meet current code. Just a little over $20K for a toilet and sink. I skipped that, but still added a "storage" room. That way in the future....they can't see through the walls.:biggrin:

Upstatemax

WilliamM2 wrote: »

added a "storage" room. That way in the future....they can't see through the walls.:biggrin:

Lol, no they can't!

In all honesty, my father and I have NEVER acquired a permit for work we do on our own homes...

That includes; kitchen, decks, porch, windows, batchrooms, full basement remodels, even full additions (that one requires cool neighbors)...

We still do everything to code, it just cuts out all the BS that nobody wants to deal with. We also take A LOT of pictures of every single thing incase we ever need to prove anything we did without a permit is to code.

WilliamM2

That includes; kitchen, decks, porch, windows, batchrooms, full basement remodels, even full additions (that one requires cool neighbors)...

I've never pulled permits for inside work, or decks. But the addition took over a couple months, included a garage, new driveway, removal of 30 - 40 trees, etc. Never would have gotten away with it, too obvious. Around here inspectors actually drive around looking, I had inspectors pass buy, and stop just to see if we had a permit displayed.

mhardy6647

Upstatemax wrote: »

Lol, no they can't!

In all honesty, my father and I have NEVER acquired a permit for work we do on our own homes...

That includes; kitchen, decks, porch, windows, batchrooms, full basement remodels, even full additions (that one requires cool neighbors)...

We still do everything to code, it just cuts out all the BS that nobody wants to deal with. We also take A LOT of pictures of every single thing incase we ever need to prove anything we did without a permit is to code.

Now... just curious here... is this a good thing to broadcast to the world via the Internet?

[Deleted User]

Update. Got off the phone with my electrician and there may be some room to manuever. Seems that adding the hardwiring will be required but they may ease off and let me use wireless interconnect. There is a procedure to go through (i.e. they need to write a letter to the supervisor) so it may take some time seeing as nothing with government happens quickly. Still all very frustrating and it means work on the addition has grinded to a halt. Looks like I won't make it in time for the holidays. Also still not looking forward to the cost either. BTW - Thanks for the support, if nothing else it made me feel a little better about this.

[Deleted User]

FYI - This is the code they are quoting regarding this.

Smoke Detectors IRC 317.1.1
When interior alterations, repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created, smoke detectors shall be installed throughout the existing dwelling unit as required for new dwellings; the smoke alarms shall be interconnected & hard wired. (Exception: when alterations/repairs do not result in the removal of interior wall or ceiling finish, unless there is an attic, crawl space or basement available which could provide access.)
In dwelling units, a Detector shall be installed in each sleeping room and outside of each separate sleeping area in the immediate vicinity of the bedrooms. In dwelling units with more than one story and in dwellings with basements, a Detector shall be installed on each story and in the basement.
Repairs to the exterior surfaces of dwellings are exempt from the above.

Jstas

nap wrote: »

Update. Got off the phone with my electrician and there may be some room to manuever. Seems that adding the hardwiring will be required but they may ease off and let me use wireless interconnect. There is a procedure to go through (i.e. they need to write a letter to the supervisor) so it may take some time seeing as nothing with government happens quickly. Still all very frustrating and it means work on the addition has grinded to a halt. Looks like I won't make it in time for the holidays. Also still not looking forward to the cost either. BTW - Thanks for the support, if nothing else it made me feel a little better about this.

Dude, take it to the supervisor personally. Don't mail it, don't wait. Call ahead, make sure he's there. You can give an account of your situation then too. Believe it or not, it helps.

However, even if things have to be hardwired, they shouldn't have to tear your house apart to do it.

disneyjoe7

Pissing them off won't fix it, TRUST ME. But I fixed a few, work with them and they will work with you. Don't and they will make your life SUCKS.

txcoastal1

Nap if structural damage will out weigh an installation UL fire/burlar alarm through the security sytem...it will pass code as a hardwired system....been in the business 23yrs...just not sure of your local codes****see comments in previous posts

Upstatemax

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Now... just curious here... is this a good thing to broadcast to the world via the Internet?

Not a huge deal. Worst case; they show up and tell me I have been a bad boy, give me a few small fines and it's all done.

If you're not smart about it, then they can really screw you over... If you have zero proof of how it was built, they can force you to tear open walls or remove work and rebuild.

Upstatemax

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Around here inspectors actually drive around looking, I had inspectors pass buy, and stop just to see if we had a permit displayed.

In my county, they don't drive around... It's hit or miss if they even show even if they are called.

Hell, when we were building my fathers addition we had the permit guy go to his neighbors house for the deck and he just waved to us and kept on going.

[Deleted User]

My electrician is going to bat for me, he is fighting the same battle in another county in Maryland. I have faith that he will get it resolved. It really looks like it will end up as the wireless system. As much as I don't like these people telling me what to do, I can see the value in the interconnected alarms. Right now I just want this to go away. Cheers. :cool:

WilliamM2

Is this a single or two story home?

inspiredsports

I am not happy to read all of this. We're planning the addition of an inlaw suite along with a kitchen update to our 1966-built home next summer and I'm sure we'll run into the same issues.

exalted512

nap wrote: »

As much as I don't like these people telling me what to do, I can see the value in the interconnected alarms.

This. It might be a PITA, but it IS safer...and something I would do anyway, ESPECIALLY if there were kids in the house.

Having said that, I grew up in a 100 year old house with one smoke detector
-Cody

pdxfj

It took nearly four months for the City of Portland to approve an electrical permit to change out the 60A 1946 electrical service to a modern 200A service. Of course they approved it only after the weather here got crappy.

I'm not looking forward to inspections and such. The government and city are so inept here one wonders just how dumb people are getting. It's even taking that long for contractors to pull permits..

Best of luck to you.

kcoc321

While I agree it is safer to have them interconnected, I read the Code section, and I think you havea grounds to apeal it based on the section I highlight below...

It says "(Exception: when alterations/repairs do not result in the removal of interior wall or ceiling finish, unless there is an attic, crawl space or basement available which could provide access.)"

Have you agrued this point with them? You are not opening the ceiling of the existing rooms, least from what I understand your scope of work.
Worth a shot.

nap wrote: »

FYI - This is the code they are quoting regarding this.

Smoke Detectors IRC 317.1.1
When interior alterations, repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created, smoke detectors shall be installed throughout the existing dwelling unit as required for new dwellings; the smoke alarms shall be interconnected & hard wired. (Exception: when alterations/repairs do not result in the removal of interior wall or ceiling finish, unless there is an attic, crawl space or basement available which could provide access.)
In dwelling units, a Detector shall be installed in each sleeping room and outside of each separate sleeping area in the immediate vicinity of the bedrooms. In dwelling units with more than one story and in dwellings with basements, a Detector shall be installed on each story and in the basement.
Repairs to the exterior surfaces of dwellings are exempt from the above.