Feedback on my system build plans, please

the88thpianoman

Long story short, my goal is to get the highest sound quality possible on my very limited budget. I have everything I think I'd like to do figured out, but I would really appreciate some feedback from the more experienced crowd. I've done hours of googling and reading threads from 2004 and up (and somehow MacLeod is in most of them), but I'd like to see if anyone has feedback on the more recent equipment.

A little about myself, I'm not new to car audio; I was even an installer at circuit city before the company folded, but I am somewhat new to the serious pursuit of sound quality. Doing a high quality install is no problem for me, but I'm a little overwhelmed by the choices of components and incredibly divided opinions on which are quality and which are not. Anyway, here's the system I'm planning out:

This is for my 03 grand cherokee. Stock alternator is 136 amp and it has an optima yellow top. I believe these will be sufficient. I will be doing the big three upgrade with 0 gauge wire. Parts I already have are as follows:

Battery terminals, distribution blocks, power/speaker wires, cables, etc. Most of it is from www.knukonceptz.com. RCA's and speaker wires are mid grade, power wires are top grade. I plan on bypassing all of the stock speaker wiring in the Jeep and going directly from amp to speakers.

Headunit: Panasonic CQ8303U, from 05 or 06. Has 3 preouts at 2.5v and 9 band EQ. Been pretty happy with it and don't particularly seen any reason to upgrade.

Dash speakers: Polk Dxi350. Since these would blow if powered by an external amp, I'll be running these directly off the headunit. I have tried listening to my previous system with the dash speakers disconnected, and I really just prefer the expanded sound stage. I know this isn't the professional way of doing it typically, but I am very partial to surround sound. I am looking into whether or not the HU is capable of running bridged to get a little more power out to these. It is 18x4 RMS, so if bridging is possible, it should be between 27 and 36x2 RMS, which would be perfect.

Front door speakers: I grabbed a set of 6x9 momo's a while back on clearance. Using them is a possibility, but I am much more leaning towards selling them since I haven't used them and going with the current MM 691 for the higher power handling and less harsh tweeters. The shallower mounting depth would also help a lot.

Rear door speakers: Polk MM6501. I know it's highly unorthodox to put components in the back, especially while not putting them in the front. I'm mainly doing this for higher power handling, as I don't expect I would hear a great difference between these and the two ways. Most likely I will be mounting the tweeters fairly close to the mid drivers anyway.

Both the MM691's and MM6501's take 125 rms and are 2.7 ohms, and the amp (detailed in the next section) puts out 160x4 rms into 2 ohms, so I think these should be an appropriate match?

Stuff I have on order but could send back for exchange:

Subwoofer: Polk SR124-DVC. This pretty much speaks for itself, I'm looking for high SQ capable of reasonable volume. I can't imagine there would be any reason not to use this sub. Planning on running just the one wired at 2 ohms. I have a 12" sub box laying around that turns out to be about 1.1 cu ft, just a hair shy of the 1.2 polk recommends, which I expect should be just fine.

4 ch amp: Hifonics zxi80.4. http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_23945_Hifonics_ZXi804.aspx I've been reading a lot of good and a lot of bad on hifonics amps, but I can't seem to find much of anything written in the last five years, so I'm hoping there is some more recent experience with these. I had originally ordered the Polk PA500.4 from that website, but they called saying it was out of stock and discontinued and suggested the hifonics as an alternative, so I'm taking the chance, but again it's not too late to send back in exchange for something better.

Sub amp: Hifonics brz1200.1d. http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_23922_Hifonics_BRZ12001D.aspx What can I say, it matches the 4 channel and has 900 rms at 2 ohms, so even at a measly half gain should give the SR124 plenty of power. Since hifonics are now CEA, the power should be there, I'm just hoping the SQ is as well. I don't particularly plan to run it at high volume, I just don't want to underpower the sub. The system is mainly going to see classic rock, and instrumental music like jazz and classical.

Lastly, and I'm not sure this is even necessary, but I figure it couldn't hurt, a 5 farad capacitor made by tsunami that I picked up back at circuit city. I've literally never even hooked this up, so I hope sitting around in a closet for five years without being powered isn't detrimental to it. Barring any words of caution, I'll probably just try this out since I am still using the stock alternator.

Sorry for the long read, just wanted to be thorough. I really appreciate any positive or negative feedback on anything and everything, but especially those hifonics amps; those are the only parts I feel like I'm really gambling on.

EBAN44

I skimmed mostly but a couple of things, just my 2 cents

Don't put 6x9s in your car, let alone in your front doors.
Second run just the mm6501s in the front doors and bridge your amp, you will be able to have the gain down a ton and they will hit hard.

I would not waste money on "high quality" speakerwire or power wire. Go on to monoprice.com and order some wire there for a good price.

Get rid of the dash speaker. It will just throw the sound all around unless you are running a system just to watch 5.1 movies. Time correction will would a lot better to align the sound to the front center.

pentoncm

I know that you say that you are partial to surround sound but you are not experiencing surround sound by just having extra speakers around you. You would need to be listening to a DVD or DVD-A and have a HU that supports the channels.

You probably feel something is missing when you turn off the dash speakers because of (1) bad speaker placement, (2) improper frequency response, and (3) lack of Time Alignment.

I'm going to recommend, because you are serious, to invest in a processor so that you can go active and run those 6501's up front active. Also ditch the rears. You may think that I am smoking crack, but you are not going to get good sound quality if you are running rears at the same level as your front. If you want an expansive soundstage run them active, time align, and get a nice 31 band eq, and it will be much wider than it is for you now. I would recommend aiming the tweeters partially on/off axis somewhere pointed far side of opposite headrest to middle of door window. Tweeter location in the front can work low next to the woofer or up high in A pillars or Sail, just get them angled and time align +eq. Try a couple locations and pick what you like best.

Plus by going active, you won't be wasting tons of amp power in those passive crossovers.

Bit Ten D goes for $600.

I think that box for the sub is going to be a bit small and lack some low frequency extension. I've seen many people here going for boxes in the 1.3-1.5 cu ft region

the88thpianoman

EBAN44 wrote: »

I skimmed mostly but a couple of things, just my 2 cents

Don't put 6x9s in your car, let alone in your front doors.
Second run just the mm6501s in the front doors and bridge your amp, you will be able to have the gain down a ton and they will hit hard.

I would not waste money on "high quality" speakerwire or power wire. Go on to monoprice.com and order some wire there for a good price.

Get rid of the dash speaker. It will just throw the sound all around unless you are running a system just to watch 5.1 movies. Time correction will would a lot better to align the sound to the front center.

Granted I've never heard any car audio with time correction, but I would say I'm not bothered by not having it. It's not about bringing the sound to the front, it's about having sound coming from in front and behind me. I understand that they are not going to carry different signals like a 5.1 setup; perhaps surround sound was a poor choice of phrase. I just mean literally surrounded by sound. I honestly don't understand what is so bad about having rear fill, but while I am setting all this up I will experiment with it and try different combinations.

To clarify the dash speakers, I would definitely have scratched it already if it were a single center speaker. There are two of them in the dash, close to where the A pillars meet the dash, so there is a defined stereo spread. I have thought about running a component set up front, but many people have reported that due to the front door speaker placement, running the tweeters in the dash or on the A pillar results in very tinny sound, and eliminating the dash speakers results in lack of sound fill. Again I'm likely going to experiment, but I do suspect that I will prefer having the mids and highs coming from the dash to supplement the doors.

As for the wires, I did source them pretty cheaply from knukonceptz, I'm not one to overspend on hyped up monster cables and such. Only reason I went top of the line on the main power cables is because the audio is not the only high demand aftermarket electronic equipment.

Thanks a lot for the input.

pentoncm wrote: »

I know that you say that you are partial to surround sound but you are not experiencing surround sound by just having extra speakers around you. You would need to be listening to a DVD or DVD-A and have a HU that supports the channels.

You probably feel something is missing when you turn off the dash speakers because of (1) bad speaker placement, (2) improper frequency response, and (3) lack of Time Alignment.

I'm going to recommend, because you are serious, to invest in a processor so that you can go active and run those 6501's up front active. Also ditch the rears. You may think that I am smoking crack, but you are not going to get good sound quality if you are running rears at the same level as your front. If you want an expansive soundstage run them active, time align, and get a nice 31 band eq, and it will be much wider than it is for you now. I would recommend aiming the tweeters partially on/off axis somewhere pointed far side of opposite headrest to middle of door window. Tweeter location in the front can work low next to the woofer or up high in A pillars or Sail, just get them angled and time align +eq. Try a couple locations and pick what you like best.

Plus by going active, you won't be wasting tons of amp power in those passive crossovers.

Bit Ten D goes for $600.

I think that box for the sub is going to be a bit small and lack some low frequency extension. I've seen many people here going for boxes in the 1.3-1.5 cu ft region

Touched on a couple of your points above the quote. Overall, I do really like what you're getting at here, but that kind of equipment is definitely well out of my price range. It's definitely something to look forward to, but at the moment I'm trying to squeeze good sound out of a small budget. The sub box is definitely something I can do something about though. Polk recommends 1.2 cu ft for the SR124; are people running 1.3-1.5 on this sub specifically, or was that more of a generality? Also, if you have any specific recommendations for a box, I'd definitely like to take a look. I'm actually not 100% certain the box I have is going to stand up to the weight of the SR, I was pretty much just gonna try it and see what happens, but if it's not even large enough for good sound, then there's not much point.

Again, I really appreciate the input from both of you, and from anyone else who wants to chime in. Particularly if anyone has experience with the newer Hifonics equipment?

pentoncm

The size of the box is going to directly affect the q or damping of the sub. A q of approximately .7 will give you a balanced curve lowering the -3db point thus giving you good bass extension. I think I've read on here that a box of 1.5-1.57 gives you this for the SR124. Many people like a bump between the 50-60Hz range so they use smaller boxes. This results however in a reduction in low end response.

Time alignment will center vocals and the kick drum. It will also widen your stage so that instruments seem like they are coming from outside of your door by your side mirror. The reason for this is to make your car sound like a good 2.1 system at home. Would you ever sit next to the left speaker in your house, no you sit in the center. Also when you watch a 5.1 dvd at home, voices don't come from behind you, they come from right in the center. Barely anything comes from behind you. Time alignment is something you need to hear yourself. Once you hear it, you will never go back.

Where are you located? Maybe one of us is close to you.

EBAN44

It has been said over and over, but when you go to a concert do you ever see speakers behind you or sound coming from behind? Nope

A great headunit in my mind, hence im bias is the Alpine IVA-D900 or 901. Its what I use, you can get one for sub 350, It will give you a flip out 7" screen, DVD video, 4 volt preouts, Time alignment for all 4 channels plus sub(I only use the fronts and sub) Also a ton of expandability. Also since you want to keep all those speakers you can later on add a alpine processor, h510(under $200) or get the h701 and then you will gain Dolby decoding and have it simulate stereo with using all your speakers.
It allowed me to make it seem like my sub which is all the way in the trunk sound like its coming from my doors, whenever my friends first got in my car. Their eyes lite up wondering what huge speakers I had in my doors bc of how great the bass is.

Just an option that wont cost a lot. Right now you will just have a very loud system that doesn't sound great since a lot of the sound will be cancelled out with all of those speakers spread out. Plus you are adding a SQ sub to a SPL system. Your sub will most likely not do much for you especially if you keep 6x9s in your front doors, which will blow you away.

pentoncm

the88thpianoman wrote: »

To clarify the dash speakers, I would definitely have scratched it already if it were a single center speaker. There are two of them in the dash, close to where the A pillars meet the dash, so there is a defined stereo spread. I have thought about running a component set up front, but many people have reported that due to the front door speaker placement, running the tweeters in the dash or on the A pillar results in very tinny sound, and eliminating the dash speakers results in lack of sound fill. Again I'm likely going to experiment, but I do suspect that I will prefer having the mids and highs coming from the dash to supplement the doors.

To address this issue, I am betting that the people reporting this issue are not time aligning their woofers to their tweeters. Having the tweeters out of phase will definitely affect the frequency response of the system at the crossover point. You are going to have a big dip here. Instead of the woofers and tweeters blending, there will be tons of cancellation and they will seem separated. They need to reinforce each other. Don't think for a minute that 6.5inch woofers can't play into the upper midrange (especially the MM's), they do and quite well. The problem is that you have too many response peaks on your near side (800Hz to 2.5kHz region) that you can't hear it clearly.

You don't want to run those 3 inch mids in the dash because they are not going to be producing much midbass at all. So in the end your 6x9s are going to be producing gobbs of midbass and tons of midrange and highs. Then you add in some extra midrange and highs. You won't have the midbass to keep up.

Less is more. Don't add in extra speakers to make it sound clearer. The problem is that you need tools to cut away things.

I'm planning on getting the SR124 when it goes on sale at onlinecarstereo.com. It's discontinued and will likely go for $200. The MM6501s if you don't have them already, cost $200 at the same place which is a certified retailer.

Save some money and get something you can tune with.

the88thpianoman

pentoncm wrote: »

The size of the box is going to directly affect the q or damping of the sub. A q of approximately .7 will give you a balanced curve lowering the -3db point thus giving you good bass extension. I think I've read on here that a box of 1.5-1.57 gives you this for the SR124. Many people like a bump between the 50-60Hz range so they use smaller boxes. This results however in a reduction in low end response.

Time alignment will center vocals and the kick drum. It will also widen your stage so that instruments seem like they are coming from outside of your door by your side mirror. The reason for this is to make your car sound like a good 2.1 system at home. Would you ever sit next to the left speaker in your house, no you sit in the center. Also when you watch a 5.1 dvd at home, voices don't come from behind you, they come from right in the center. Barely anything comes from behind you. Time alignment is something you need to hear yourself. Once you hear it, you will never go back.

Where are you located? Maybe one of us is close to you.

I think you're right about that. I'm in Tampa, FL. I would really like to hear what TA sounds like, since I don't think I'm fully envisioning it. I understand the concept, but I'm sure hearing it is irreplaceable.

EBAN44 wrote: »

It has been said over and over, but when you go to a concert do you ever see speakers behind you or sound coming from behind? Nope

A great headunit in my mind, hence im bias is the Alpine IVA-D900 or 901. Its what I use, you can get one for sub 350, It will give you a flip out 7" screen, DVD video, 4 volt preouts, Time alignment for all 4 channels plus sub(I only use the fronts and sub) Also a ton of expandability. Also since you want to keep all those speakers you can later on add a alpine processor, h510(under $200) or get the h701 and then you will gain Dolby decoding and have it simulate stereo with using all your speakers.
It allowed me to make it seem like my sub which is all the way in the trunk sound like its coming from my doors, whenever my friends first got in my car. Their eyes lite up wondering what huge speakers I had in my doors bc of how great the bass is.

Just an option that wont cost a lot. Right now you will just have a very loud system that doesn't sound great since a lot of the sound will be cancelled out with all of those speakers spread out. Plus you are adding a SQ sub to a SPL system. Your sub will most likely not do much for you especially if you keep 6x9s in your front doors, which will blow you away.

That does sound like a more realistic way of getting into sound processing sooner, thank you for the recommendations.

As for having sound behind me at concerts... well, I kind of laugh a little every time I read that. It is true that there is no sound coming from behind you... if you're in the audience. From the stage however, you are completely immersed in sound, and that is how I am used to hearing live music. It's probably fair to say that I am not trying to recreate the sound of attending the concert hall, but rather of being on stage with the orchestra.

pentoncm wrote: »

To address this issue, I am betting that the people reporting this issue are not time aligning their woofers to their tweeters. Having the tweeters out of phase will definitely affect the frequency response of the system at the crossover point. You are going to have a big dip here. Instead of the woofers and tweeters blending, there will be tons of cancellation and they will seem separated. They need to reinforce each other. Don't think for a minute that 6.5inch woofers can't play into the upper midrange (especially the MM's), they do and quite well. The problem is that you have too many response peaks on your near side (800Hz to 2.5kHz region) that you can't hear it clearly.

You don't want to run those 3 inch mids in the dash because they are not going to be producing much midbass at all. So in the end your 6x9s are going to be producing gobbs of midbass and tons of midrange and highs. Then you add in some extra midrange and highs. You won't have the midbass to keep up.

Less is more. Don't add in extra speakers to make it sound clearer. The problem is that you need tools to cut away things.

I'm planning on getting the SR124 when it goes on sale at onlinecarstereo.com. It's discontinued and will likely go for $200. The MM6501s if you don't have them already, cost $200 at the same place which is a certified retailer.

Save some money and get something you can tune with.

I can see I need to learn a lot about tuning and cancellation. As for the dash speakers, it is too late to return them (I've been slowly acquiring these parts for a while), so I'll probably play around with them. The HU has an option to switch the internal amp on and off, so I can cut the dash speakers in and out at the push of a button to experiment with the difference.

The MM691's are the only thing I don't have yet and now am considering not bothering with. I picked up the MM6501's for under $120 on amazon a while back. As for the SR124-dvc, I snagged one of the last couple from sonic electronix (not thrilled about the unauthorized retailer, but the price was right).


As for the overall SQ of the system, it will certainly be far better than my previous setup in the Jeep... Sony 4 way 6x9's in front, 6.5's in back, stock dash 2.5's, all powered by a pioneer basic 4 ch. The sub was a sony xplod 10" that I mounted in literally a random box that I'm guesstimating to be .9ish cu ft, powered by half of a no name 4 ch amp running bridged. I have learned so, so much since putting that combination together, although budget was the reason for most of the skimping and putting together random clearance parts. It's safe to say that any direction I take at this point will provide a massive upgrade to SQ.

Keep the info coming at me please, I'm learning so much by reading the forums here.

MacLeod

You say you're wanting to build a system for ultimate SQ but you're going to run dash, door and rear speakers running full range. Dude, I guarantee you, that's not going to work. Mainly because you'll have the same frequencies coming at you from different distances. It will make you surrounded by sound but that's a lot different than sounding great. Just because more sound comes from the front and back doesn't mean its good sound. Also, speakers firing into the windshield can work but not without a good. it of processing power cause you're gonna need to correct a LOT of issues since you're not listening to the speaker but rather its reflection off the windshield.

I guess you need to define what you mean by "highest sound quality possible". If you're wanting sound all around you, lots of speakers, lots of output so you can listen to top 40 music, you wont need as much as if you're wanting a precise soundstage and imaging with immense detail. For that you're gonna need a different approach.

For best SQ, you want as few drivers as possible. A quality set of component speakers with the tweeters up in the A pillars aimed on axis will do much much more to accomplish this and will sound hundreds of times better than a cheap pair of 3's in the dash and coaxials in the door especially if you're going to run the dash speakers off the head unit.

As for time alignment, you don't need it really. A strong EQ is much. ore important. Time alignment will mainly come into play with centering up your image. It wont affect tonailty much at all.

What I suggest is a good set of components, a head unit with a good crossover and EQ, 4 channel amp to biamp with, a mid range 12" sub and proper amp. That's all you'd need.

the88thpianoman

MacLeod, thanks for chiming in. I guess I do need to clarify a bit. I do want much higher sound quality than my previous setup, which I'm certain will be accomplished. That said, sound immersion is a core part of the experience for me, so I suppose I mean something like, "the highest sound quality possible in a system that provides a lot of sound from every direction." Maybe that's a total contradiction or at best will require some compromise. I'm going to try bi-amping the MM6501's and running the SR124 for a bit and see if I can adjust to not having rear fill. Since I am dealing with much higher wattage than my last system, it's possible I'll get my desired volume out of the single component set. Now, just to make sure I understand something...

I guarantee you, that's not going to work. Mainly because you'll have the same frequencies coming at you from different distances.

Same frequencies coming from different distances means that the sound waves will overlap and some of the sound will cancel. One way to correct this would be to time align so that all the sound reaches me at the same time. Great for me, but a trained ear sitting in the back would hear everything as sounding a bit off. A simple way to correct this is to have one set of mids and highs, so that there is no sound cancellation from any listener's perspective in the vehicle. Is that fairly accurate?

To quote my last post and give you an idea of what I'm trying to accomplish,

As for having sound behind me at concerts... well, I kind of laugh a little every time I read that. It is true that there is no sound coming from behind you... if you're in the audience. From the stage however, you are completely immersed in sound, and that is how I am used to hearing live music. It's probably fair to say that I am not trying to recreate the sound of attending the concert hall, but rather of being on stage with the orchestra.

That's the best explanation of what I'm trying to do.

On a side note, I was hoping you'd chime in. I think I read about everything you'd written about hifonics amps up through about 2005, but cannot find any informed opinions about the 2011 equipment. Any opinions or experience with these?

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_23945_Hifonics_ZXi804.aspx

www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_23922_Hifonics_BRZ12001D.aspx

Again, thanks for taking the time to share your years of wisdom with me.

MacLeod

At the end of the day dude, its your ears and your money. If you like your sound on top of you as opposed to out in front of you then that isnt wrong by any means. Im coming at you as a long time SQ competitor so Im brainwashed to wanting all my sound up on the dash in front of me and well focused. That doesnt mean its better than what you like so if youre dead set on rears Im not gonna try to talk you out of it.

One thing though about rear passengers, theyre going to be sitting right next to a speaker in an even worse position than you so a trained ear is gonna hear crappy everything anyway no matter what. Sitting 2 feet from one speaker while the other 3 are 3-5 times further than that, is not gonna offer the best sound quality anyway. I always say, when the passengers start helping to pay for the equipment, thats when Ill start worrying about how good it sounds to them. :biggrin:

Give it a try though. Bi amp the MM's with the tweeters mounted up in the A pillars and tune on it some. Give it a few days of listening and tuning before you make your decision because itll take a while to tweak it into a proper setting. I do think youll prefer it because when properly tuned, youll still get ambience the same way you do with an orchestra. There arent any instruments behind you but youre hearing their reflections off the back of the music hall. Same with the car. Youll hear the reflections off the back glass and other hard surfaces so once tuned, youll get the ambience youre looking for but itll be a more realistic ambience and your detail and staging wont suffer.

My beef with the Hifonics amps were that their ratings never matched up to what they actually put out. With no magazines anymore to review these things, I have no idea if theyve gotten better. I see a LOT of their amps in the SPL lanes and winning so they obviously get the job done. I think its more a question of if youre getting all the watts you paid for.

pentoncm

The MM speakers are very impressive for the price. My installer was quite impressed that I had so much midbass upfront. He is putting Hertz Hi Energy XL components (larger woofers for midbass) in his car and he was still impressed even though my speakers cost 1/3 of his.

EBAN44

Totally agree, the MM6501s mid bass is great for the price. My friend laughed when he saw them with their new tiny magnet. I am though pushing around 300 watts to each, so they are hitting pretty hard.

One thing though, it did take the tweeters about a solid 2 weeks for them to break in and not sound as harsh/bright. I'm also running them passive with the -3db switch. On my A pillars they were just way to bright.

pentoncm

Neodymium is the key... Polk is awesome for not charging an arm and a leg for these magnets. HAT charges way more for their SE Legatias which have Neodymium.

Go take a JL C2 with a pretty big magnet on the back, the MM will kill it IMO. I've crossed my MM woofers at 30Hz on a butterworth just to see what they could do, I couldn't believe the excursion they have. It sounded like there were subs in my doors.

MacLeod

I havent heard the new MM's but if theyre half the SR's theyre pretty great.

I just said this in a PM to Arun but I really believe the SR mids are the among the best on the planet. They have great detail and midrange but can also dip down very low and put out some very good midbass (and sub bass in the case of the 6's and their 40 Hz performance).

The new MM's are supposed to be basically a scaled down SR so I dont see how theyre not great speakers.

I miss the MM6. I loved those things. I still have my set with one mid autographed by Matt Polk. :biggrin: Those things look like 6" subs!