Amps paired nicely with inductor upgraded SDA CRS+

evhudsons

I suppose I'll have to be a little more careful with the inductors as I have an entry level Pioneer avr. I read in several places that the SDA can be really driven, so what range of amplification would I look for to feed my CRS+ or even the other SDA's like the 1c? I know that may not be an easy answer with 2channel stereo vs HT. I have read on other threads but haven't found an answer for the SDA's specifically. Obviously Ohms and watts per channel are important considerations, but what would be a minimum you think before you could be somewhat happy in the sound quality. I am starting my kitty fund for new amplification and I just want to make a good informed decision which will end the end maximize my joy in my upgraded and modded speakers.

And thanks to everyone for all your helps, really!





Asshats need not apply.

quadzilla

Besides ohm ratings and watts, you should also look at gain. That said, a lot of people will recommend tubes for SDAs, and I have to say, I'm quite happy with my little 45 wpc push/pull KT88 amps driving my 2.3 TLs. However, about as many people will tell you that Carver, as well as other good solid state amps also pair well with SDAs.

Really what you want to look for is going to be any quality high current amp. You'll have to probably listen to several, but that's the fun.

Schurkey

If you're playing with inductors (lower DC resistance), you'll want an amp that won't mess the bed when driving a ~2 ohm load. That's gonna narrow the field a lot.

Given stock-ish inductors, an amp that's happy at 4-ohm nominal load should be fine.

How many watts relates to how big is your listening room, and how loud do you like to listen?

heiney9

A receiver won't get it done, period. Unless you are looking at a TOTL unit from a TOTL brand. You haven't given enough info about your room, listening habits, type of music, your goals with the system, budget, associated gear, cables, etc. You need a high current unit and if it's a well built unit you may not need a lot of "rated" watts. I use a 30wpc single ended class A amp with my 1C's. Still haven't found the limit of the amp. It's also a well designed somewhat expensive amp. Not saying it's all about money, but it helps.

H9

evhudsons

That darned rabbit took off again! Excellent info. I had no idea about high current amps, or gains, or what a totl unit is or even the difference between a receiver and an amp. I'm assuming a receiver has an amp in it and an amp is just an amp? I researched the high current amp last night and got a decent explanation of what it is and why it can do more, even though it may have less wpc. I'm not sure what gain is or how to factor that in, and I don't know what a totl unit is.

My budget is just beginning, so depending on the right amp I'll just start putting money aside so that it is less of a factor although I certainly will factor in cost. I listen to all kinds of music really. Now that my speakers sound awesome again I have picked up more jazz and female vocals, but I love blues and rock. When friends are over I sometimes put on some newer music like r&b and some rap, or country. Primarily for me I listen to Latin Jazz, rock, blues, and instrumental jazz and of course classics like Miles Davis, Freddy King, and so on. I have a separate sub woofer being driven by its own amp which is a pioneer avr only used for the sub. It is fed off the subwoofer-out connection on the avr that I have. It's a living room approximately 15 feet wide and 30 feet long. It is a v shaped roof, 8 feet on wall side to about 20 feet high at the highest. For movies I tend to turn up the volume and as some scenes are drastically and suddenly louder I can see why a high current amp would help. I have a Marantz 2230 vintage receiver I use for the phono and tuner. I run it's preout to my avr. I have no idea if this is a good amp to run the Polks or not, but I like it.

I have home depot speaker wire but I use one length of wire for each speaker terminal. So I have one pioneer avr1020 (entry level) for the crs+, surround sides (bookshelf size), and for now surround back which are my wife's tiny Bose cubes. I'm not sold on surround backs so if it gives me more power per channel if I take them out I will. I don't have a center channel as it messes with the SDA, not only unnecessary but a negative impact IMO.

I've upgraded the crs+ to tl4.1, dynamat, mortite etc. I am waiting now on larry's rings and the inductors I just ordered.

I listen at moderate level, but I do like it loud, and I like it serene depending on what I'm listening too, my mood, and who is home.

I'm new to a lot of this, but I have learned about having a setup that uses an avr that has preouts. I would then use the preouts to connect to an external amp which would power just the CRS+, and the other amps running the surrounds and the sub separately. I'm assuming the separate amp would be the high current amp. Do these amps come advertised as high current? Is there one too powerful? Do high current amps naturally handle lower ohm loads, and how do I know if it does or not?

thanks for the info!

sda2mike

look for an amp like the adcom 535 or 545...60 and 100 watts off high currency....they will make your crs's sing..they can be found on the cheap...i believe you could temporarily use your marantz as a pre, provided it has pre outs...the marantz wont like dipping down in the ohms...it's a sweet rcvr, but don't give it a challenge it's not up for...you need lotsa clean power, man!

inspiredsports

heiney9 wrote: »

A receiver won't get it done, period. Unless you are looking at a TOTL unit from a TOTL brand. You haven't given enough info about your room, listening habits, type of music, your goals with the system, budget, associated gear, cables, etc. You need a high current unit and if it's a well built unit you may not need a lot of "rated" watts. I use a 30wpc single ended class A amp with my 1C's. Still haven't found the limit of the amp. It's also a well designed somewhat expensive amp. Not saying it's all about money, but it helps.

I've been here long enough for you to know that I will always respond/defend that the vintage NAD 7600 (a RECEIVER), that WILL push that load all day long

Otherwise, you are correct because there is no other receiver on the planet that will do so without smoke.

sda2mike

yep...they shoulda called them NADS

heiney9

inspiredsports wrote: »

Otherwise, you are correct because there is no other receiver on the planet that will do so without smoke.

Yeah, well that's just simply not true . There are some, but they are pricey. Kudos to your NADS , but I am not a fan of receiver's in general, even if they can decently power SDA's. Too many compromises, but I understand many like the OP can only go so far down the rabbit hole, we all have our thresholds in this hobby and there are lot's of limiting factors.

H9

Joe08867

Not a fan of receivers for SDA's. I have heard a few integrateds that were up to the task including the Exposure 3010S I use in my system.

NAD makes good stuff. I am not sure if they are the be all end all as far as no smoke goes but they sure do have brass ones.

sda2mike

i ran my sda 2b's for years with my marantz 2270...then i lived in condoes...it performed admirably...then i moved to a large house witha large listening area...so, i got a large adcom amp...the gfa 555...i used the marantz as a pre for a while...i know if i didn't upgrade my amp, that old marantz would have died in a blaze of smoke and maybe sparks...it deserves a mellower mission..it now works the bedroom with some bookshelf klipsch's...that's what i suggest you do..upgrade the power to an amp with a good stable rep...you'll be happy

mike

evhudsons

Awesome, I looked up those receivers and am looking to get one. Do you think a used one would be fine? If so I will look on club Polk classifieds and get one as it comes up. I'll sell the receiver I have now and then get one that can preout to one of the amps mentioned.

Does a receiver amp load drop as well as the external amp? I see you mentioned warnings on using an underpowered preamp.

thanks!

cnh

The only thing you have to worry about, power-wise, is the Amp!

And a 'great' number of people here run 'used' amps. I'd even venture to say that's 'most' of us!

Good Luck!

cnh

evhudsons

Cool, thanks I think that's enough for me to start doing my homework. I'll start with the best amp I can afford soon and use the equipment I have now. I'll keep the avr out of the loop for the crs. I don't have preouts on the avr but I can run analog RCA from my Harmon cd player, and my dvr. I still have an old switch box from when i was using component video. I'll have the switch box run to the marantz then to the amp. I can do this carefully until I upgrade my preamplifier. I have enjoyed my HT, but I wonder if I can do it in analog and still be happy with the sound. If so I'll just use a good preamplifier. If not I'll just have to get a good avr with power and preouts. I think that will work. Great leads on the amp. I noticed as I looked them up that it seems amps have longevity as oppossed to avr's which are outdated before you actually bring them home.

sda2mike

....

evhudsons

I hope I did alright. I had planned on taking a while to choose the right amp, but I saw a quick deal and jumped on it. It was within budget. It is a used but good condition Parasound HCA-1500A Amplifier. I'm going to first run my Harmon Kardon Cd player, tape deck, phono and dvr analog to the marantz and then preout to the parasound amp to run the crs+

I saw a speaker switch box that I can use to choose between the preamp to amp set up, and then the avr setup. so AVR to switch box and Parasound amp to switch box. but that's just temporary.

I plan on selling my avr and getting one with preouts so that I can combine the two setups. A question I have, well two really.

If I run the marantz to the parasound amp, do I still get the "marantz" sound, or do I get the parasound sound? On my avr their is a setting called pure direct, does that mean I can send a signal from the avr to the parasound bypassing the digital setups and therefor get a 2channel signal to the parasound?

Or, did I just majorly get the wrong amp? It is rated at 205 wpc at 8ohm, and 300 or so for 4 ohm. It didn't say anything about dipping below 4 ohm.

If I got the wrong amp I'll just sell to my trusting friend for his 1c's, which I hope to snake from him when his future divorce happens. He's not even married yet but she hates the speakers and rightly blames me for getting the speakers in her house.

One more crazy unrelated question: I loved, loved the 1c's. Has anyone ever used sda's like the 1c, and also the crs+ at the same time, like one on top of the other?

Thanks for all your input, really, I am in complete gratitude.

Everett

sda2mike

that's a fine choice for an amp!

Schurkey

evhudsons wrote: »

I hope I did alright. I had planned on taking a while to choose the right amp, but I saw a quick deal and jumped on it. It was within budget. It is a used but good condition Parasound HCA-1500A Amplifier. I'm going to first run my Harmon Kardon Cd player, tape deck, phono and dvr analog to the marantz and then preout to the parasound amp to run the crs+

Nothing wrong with the Parasound. Not my first choice due to country-of-origin issues. (pretty sure it's from Taiwan, so it's WAY WAY better than Communist Chinese.) It's one of those "designed and spec'ed in America, offshored to cut costs" deals. You could do MUCH worse.

evhudsons wrote: »

I saw a speaker switch box that I can use to choose between the preamp to amp set up, and then the avr setup. so AVR to switch box and Parasound amp to switch box. but that's just temporary.

I don't think I've ever seen a switchbox like that.

evhudsons wrote: »

I plan on selling my avr and getting one with preouts so that I can combine the two setups.

ALSO not my first choice. Get a preamp/processor, and additional separate amps. More flexibility, often higher quality. Typically more expensive, but if you're not in a hurry you can buy additional used amps; and a used pre/pro at your convenience.

It's hard to find quality AV receivers. More accurately, it's VERY EASY to find junk AV receivers.

evhudsons wrote: »

A question I have, well two really.

If I run the marantz to the parasound amp, do I still get the "marantz" sound, or do I get the parasound sound?

To some extent, you get the sound of BOTH. If the components are designed properly, that won't be a huge problem.

evhudsons wrote: »

On my avr their is a setting called pure direct, does that mean I can send a signal from the avr to the parasound bypassing the digital setups and therefor get a 2channel signal to the parasound?

You'll have to check the operator's/owner's manual to see how that works. It's likely that the AVR will bypass most or all of the processing to send a "pure" signal to the main L & R output jacks--but without pre-out jacks, you'll still have problems connecting the output jacks of the AVR to the input of the Parasound. There are ways around that--but they suck and you'll spend more time/money/effort/enthusiasm getting Z-adapters than just replacing the AVR. Soundcraftsmen and Carver both sold impedance transformers (Z adapters) for this purpose, but they've been discontinued for twenty years or more; and I can't even find a link to them right now.

evhudsons wrote: »

Or, did I just majorly get the wrong amp? It is rated at 205 wpc at 8ohm, and 300 or so for 4 ohm. It didn't say anything about dipping below 4 ohm.

You'll be fine if the amp is in good condition.

evhudsons

Ah, the light bulb is starting to emit light. So an AVR is really just a blend of preamp, amp, processor? So in a way it's a stereo in a box. I see now how it can be hooked up, I think. So a preamp/processor would be where I input the hdmi etc, then from there I can send the front channel to the amp I just bought, and then any side surrounds or outside speakers I would send from the same preamp/processor to another amp to power those, similar to how I am powering my subwoofer now. My surrounds are pretty dang small, so it sounds like I could just add a preamp processor for now to send accept my various sources, then send the fronts to the parasound, then the surrounds I suppose I could for now send to the avr as I'm doing the sub. Would that work? If so I can do that until I get two more amps to replace the avr which is new enough I could probably sell locally and get half the money for a preamp.

The parasound I just happened to get a deal on out of the blue. What are your favorite amps?

And thanks a bazillion for breaking that down for me. I'm learning a lot here, and I can't wait to have a proper set up, or at least the beginning stages of a proper setup.

Schurkey

evhudsons wrote: »

Ah, the light bulb is starting to emit light. So an AVR is really just a blend of preamp, amp, processor?

Yup. In the same way that a "stereo" receiver is a preamp, amp, and tuner in one chassis.

evhudsons wrote: »

So in a way it's a stereo in a box.

Sort of, but be careful. The phrase "Home Theater in a box" (HTIB) has VERY VERY negative connotations--it's the sort of junk equipment you'd get on Black Thursday at Sam's Club.

evhudsons wrote: »

I see now how it can be hooked up, I think. So a preamp/processor would be where I input the hdmi etc, then from there I can send the front channel to the amp I just bought, and then any side surrounds or outside speakers I would send from the same preamp/processor to another amp to power those, similar to how I am powering my subwoofer now.

Yup.

evhudsons wrote: »

My surrounds are pretty dang small, so it sounds like I could just add a preamp processor for now to send accept my various sources, then send the fronts to the parasound, then the surrounds I suppose I could for now send to the avr as I'm doing the sub. Would that work? If so I can do that until I get two more amps to replace the avr which is new enough I could probably sell locally and get half the money for a preamp.

I'm not certain about sending the output from the preamp/processor to your existing AVR. The AVR maybe does not have suitable inputs.

evhudsons wrote: »

The parasound I just happened to get a deal on out of the blue.

Every day comes with it's own surprises.

evhudsons wrote: »

What are your favorite amps?

Everyone has their own preferences. I like Made-in-America; and I don't find transistors to be inherently objectionable. I have a poorly-done web site devoted to the (now discontinued, but poised for a comeback) Aragon and Acurus lines of equipment.

http://hbassociates.us/Aragon_FanPage.html

The brand name has been purchased from Klipsch, Indy Audio Labs is taking over support and production.

http://www.indyaudiolabs.com/1home.aspx

Prices on NEW stuff will be high; used equipment prices vary widely. I suggest checking audiogon.com for Acurus and see if anything looks interesting.

Might also want to look at B & K as well. I'm sure it's also American-made. Soundcraftsmen was American-made, but all the home-audio stuff is long out of production. Bryston is Canadian, and approaching Aragon quality (expensive). Nice thing about Bryston is the TWENTY YEAR warranty. There are many brands of equipment that would work for you. Carver is well-loved on this site. Adcom, with few exceptions is well-regarded. Parasound you already know about.

mlhm5

Cannot beat a Yamaha M4 for clean power. Manual says 120wpc, however M-4's typically will measure around 160 wpc @ 1khz @ 8 ohm before clipping (both channels driven at 8 ohm at the same time). There are quite a few out there for less than $300, so after a complete recap, you are still under $500 and that amp can last you for 20 years or can be sold for what you have in it.

Usually the C4 preamp is sold with the M4 and is an excellent partner. New in 1979 it cost $600.

mlhm5

Oh, forgot about the PC series the 4002 was $10K new and you can buy it for $450 now.

215W, 8 ohms, 0.1% THD. 10Hz- 100kHz.

evhudsons

Great, great info and leads! To most who have been in this hobby it's probably all common knowledge but it's new to me. I've never seen an ad on tv for preamp processors or separate amps, just integrated receivers. Same thing at stores. It makes sense, and if I can score some used but good equipment it wouldnt be that much higher than a receiver. Now I see why people said they don't use receivers on SDAs. I have room to grow here. I'm sure the sound quality difference is substantial. I agree with buying American made, at least for higher end audio. It's the same with guitars. You can't beat top American craftsmanship. but I do see hat there are plenty of good brands not made here.
I'll scour the sites you mentioned for deals,

Thanks again!

evhudsons

I received my amp and hooked it up. I had some issues at first but resolved them. The first issue I found was that the amp would cut off after a few seconds. I determined it was due to one of my surround back speakers being out of phase. I didn't realize it had to be hooked up perfectly! The other issue was that a light for overload on my right speaker was showing even when nothing was hooked up. I think it was because my old Marantz receiver was plugged in backwards. I always had a hum with that receiver and found that someone mentioned plugging it in the other way, as the grounding would be affected. The older electronics don't have the wider blade to make sure it is inserted properly. After that no hum, and the overload light disappeared.

After all the mods I've done, this was a big one, no, huge, really huge jump in my SDA universe! My Solen inductors are on the way and I'm prepared for them now.

I can't give a judgemental review of the Parasound hca 1500 because it's the only amp I've heard, but it is simply amazing. I can give a quick preaching to the choir here as an amp compared to just a receiver.
It's a beast, heavy, but quite easy on the eyes. And now the music is easy on the ears too! I don't have to turn it up to have amazingly clear music. DK's assessment of image weight etc are now are becoming so much more apparent. My wife likes to give me a good sport hard time in my hobby, but her eyes bulged out when she heard me fire it up and she just was saying great things before she realized what she was saying. She was simply blown away, just as this is the explosion of the culmination of all the work and upgrades coming to life. It helped slightly that I was playing music to her tastes. :idea:

I tried to play it loud but not to clipping. I came no where near to distortion or clipping. I did hear on some sources my passive sub start to rattle a bit, so I turned it down. The highs are brilliant, the instrumentation superb, the imaging is beautiful in it's 3d stage. The mods to the speakers are all incredible, but to feed these guys some clean high current power was something I had not anticipated doing, and when I did, there are no words to describe what I am hearing now. I know that most of you may be laughing at my newbie reaction, but wholly cow, I simply did not know that this sort of thing could even be!

I had to get rid of my newer pioneer in order to get one that had preouts, but that was an upgrade in itself. Before adding the amp I tried just the avr, and it was better. Adding the amp just sent me into orbit and I've yet to ever come back.

I think I just climbed one more rung in my hobby ladder, but now I can see from above.

I want to thank all of you for steering me unerringly into the SDA universe. There is nowhere else I could have attained such a high level of education and guidance and help in getting to where I am now, and along the path I am still taking. Most of you know who you are that I am thanking.

Thanks, thanks, thanks!

evhudsons

I forgot to ask if the Parasound hca-1500a amp is common ground? I'm assuming so but want to make sure. I found a thread about it but wasn't sure of the answer.

thanks!

Everett

Schurkey

evhudsons wrote: »

I know that most of you may be laughing at my newbie reaction, but wholly cow, I simply did not know that this sort of thing could even be!

A few of us were exposed to high-quality audio from a young age. Most of us were not.

I never heard anything but table radios until I was a teenager. (tuned to "talk radio" where the music was just an interruption of the commercials, stock market reports, commercials, the agricultural reports, commercials, weather reports, commercials, "news", commercials, sports, and commercials...)

Yeah, I think most of us are laughing...because we remember our own "WOW!" experience; the point where we realized that audio doesn't have to sound like children's tin-can-and-string "telephones".

Enjoy the feeling while it lasts...it takes more and more money for less and less of a reaction from this point forward.

JayCee

evhudsons wrote: »

I forgot to ask if the Parasound hca-1500a amp is common ground? I'm assuming so but want to make sure. I found a thread about it but wasn't sure of the answer.

thanks!

Everett

Yes, the 1500a is common ground. I'm using one on my 1C's and I've also used it on 1.2TL's, 2A's and an older pair of CRS's. It's a solid amp and would pair nicely w/your CRS+'s. I really like it w/my 1C's.

PreCd

Schurkey wrote: »

Enjoy the feeling while it lasts...it takes more and more money for less and less of a reaction from this point forward.

Yep that is truth to be heard my friends. I upgraded my Yamaha r-9 that has driven my SDA 2Bs for 24 years now to a Adcom GFA-555 and was thrilled for about a week. Then what you just said happened! Replaced my CD player since, modified my speakers, and have all the caps on the table for the Adcom gear. I caught the bug.......

evhudsons

I'm still in wow zone. I feel like I finally brought my own band home to Play live whenever I want. And for home theater this is spectacular. I'm using an old pioneer avr to run just my subs, but will get another amp to run it instead. I'm sure it will make a good difference.