Spikes - they really are that good!

dorokusai

Totally agree.

evhudsons

So to be clear, couple the speakers to the floor, only de-couple components such as amps and recievers?

I understand the need to stop component vibration but is that due to audible vibrations or does it change the way sound is output?

evhudsons

Just read further the earlier posts. So I should continue to use my brass spikes from meniscus on my amps, but decouple my cd and tape players?

An FYI on the sharper spikes: I'm using them on my hardwood floors but they haven't done any damage. The lower weight of my speakers I'm sure helps, but also the fact that the spike points are tiny. The brass spikes from meniscus had broader spikes but the sharper spikes worked much better. I did the coin trick but found using the sharp spikes did the best job on the speakers and did essentially no damage to the floor. The brass spikes are awesome for my amps so far.

gordynor

F1nut wrote: »

I wouldn't use Sorbothane under speakers. The idea is to couple the speaker to whatever it's sitting on, not de-couple it, which is what Sorbothane really does. Also if you are not aware, Sorbothane stains whatever it comes in contact with...yuk!

So I should use spikes on these surfaces, too (on top of discs, of course)? I was looking at these: http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-DSS3-BC-Black-Chrome/dp/B003BFPDS0/ref=pd_sim_e_1

PreCd

One thing that I have been studying on is how to attach them to the speakers. I believe it would be wise to mention that if attaching them to particle board use the t-nuts. From what I have seen most of the spikes have those screw in inserts.

bobsauto49

Make that 136 or more from Menicus Audio Group! This place really does hurt the wallet!:rolleyes:

evhudsons

Ha ha, one of my brass meniscus spikes came with One un machined. They sent another right away. I offered to send the one back but hey didn't want it due to postage. I took everything apart and lined them up on a shelf. Tonight my wife thought I made a Menorah. I'm not Jewish so I didn't know 9 was the number of branches

Just funny. It's audioKarma. We are listening to her old records on the Marantz and she said we really need to clean the records. I decided to part from my tradition and gave her her early gift of a record cleaner.

I have the new avr but we are enjoying the old school 2 channel right now. The crs speakers are out putting some serious bass. The abr never allowed that.

I'm brass spiking the amps, and am going to isolate the rest of the components. Thanks all for the advice frOm personal experience.

evhudsons

WE appreciate it! Forgive my font changes, the iPhone is acting uP

steveinaz

Get the footers. I bought mine at audio advisor.

audiocr381ve

I have my 2B's on spikes, on pads, on tile floors. Should I keep them on the pads? It sure is a pain in the **** to move them around on the pads, but the best sound is what I'm looking for. What do you guys think?

steveinaz

Why kind of pads? I'd recommed brass footers if you're concerned with messing up the floor.

thsmith

Lasareath wrote: »

Which spikes did you guys buy for your Polks?

I have 1.2TL's and hardwood floor.

Should I use the footers or not?

I'm concerned of the holes the spikes will make with my 185lb speakers.

http://meniscusaudio.com/spikesfeet-c-111.html?page=1&sort=3a

Mysesound points and pads

headrott

thsmith wrote: »

Mysesound points and pads

Unfortunately, they are no longer made for Polks.:sad:

Greg

Tour2ma

Nothing new about this discussion... Here's an '03 version that even gets into Polk's Bass Braces...
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?9719-spiking-vs-isolation

Bottom line... if you can "wobble" your speaker, it needs to be stabilized. And on carpet, spikes are the way to go.

As for other uses... I find it to be amazing that only one other poster in this thread seems to be dubious as to how the same thing, a spike, can both couple and decouple, two diametrically opposed results...

Lasareath wrote: »

I have 1.2TL's and hardwood floor. Should I use the footers or not?

How much do you like your floors? :cheesygrin: If the footers have a non-skid underside and your tl positioning is one and done, they could offer some advantage over the stock Polk feet on bare floors. Otherwise just stick with the stock non-spike feet. Their curved underside will actually concentrate the speakers weight more than flat bottomed footers... as sooner or later small "dents" in your floor will show...

evhudsons wrote: »

So to be clear, couple the speakers to the floor, only de-couple components such as amps and recievers?

... and CDP's and turntables... Yes, those are your goals...

Speaker cabinets try to move in response to the movement of the drivers in the cabinet (that whole Newton's "equal and opposite" law thing). When the drivers are moving forward any backward movement by the cabinet reduces the net driver travel and thus the net output. You want to insure your speaker cabinet will not move by anchoring (coupling) it to something that hopefully is not capable of movement, i.e., the floor. I say "hopefully" because not all floors are created equal. e.g., concrete slab vs 2nd floor or main floor in a pier & beam house. A "live" floor is not a problem you would wish upon your worst audio enemy.

Just an aside, but what gets interesting with Polk's old PR designs is you have the PR's mass moving in opposite direction of the MW's cumulative mass at the same time... to some extent negating each other.

On the other hand the rest of your gear, which generates little, if any, vibration, is best served by being isolated from their major source of vibration, sound waves from the speakers, AKA "acoustic feedback". Well designed electronic gear include measures to isolate vibration sensitive components from internal generators, e.g., rubber grommets under transformers, and external sources, sound waves hitting their cabinet, e.g., MDF, metal with Dynamat or other acoustic dampening liners.

What gear often cannot overcome is the accumulated feedback from the surfaces they sit upon... cabinets, shelving, the floor. (One gear specific example is a turntable's dust cover which is best set aside during play.) Vibration isolating feet can help here, e.g., Vibrapods (or in the old days tennis balls cut in half).

While many believe that spikes are the answer for isolation as well... well, no... they are not...

BlueFox wrote: »

Stability is certainly a desirable trait, but the micro-vibration elimination that spikes provide, which results in increased clarity, is a better benefit from an audio perspective.

Micro-vibration? Meaning very, very, very low amplitude or very, very, very high frequency? Any reference links?

Toolfan66 wrote: »

Just above the carpet is fine.

On carpet, if you can wobble the speaker, you need longer spikes. The goal is for the spikes to penetrate the carpet and pad and reach the underlying floor, substantially putting all the speakers' weight on the spikes' tips. So long as the speakers are not compressing the carpet nap, you should be good to go.

F1nut wrote: »

Steve, the spikes would be much more effective piercing the carpet than sitting on the tile as the tile is basically floating and therefore not coupled to the floor.

Yup... spikes alone are best... however, the tile with it's larger footprint will be more stable than an unspiked speaker/ speaker stand. Spikes on disks on tile on carpet make about the same amount of sense as spikes on disks on non-carpeted floors...

drumminman wrote: »

I turned off the sub woofer in order to really hear any changes.
First I played Delbert Mclinton's Hits on cd. Next up was Susan Tedeschi. Finally, I spun The Band's The Last Waltz remastered 4 CD set.!

drumminman wrote: »

Still undecided about whether or not to turn on the subwoofer.

First, really nice taste in music there...

I'm really looking forward to your report with the sub set as it was before you spiked. With the sub left out you made two changes at once, and there is the possibility that your sub and 2.3's are fighting each other well into the mid-bass harmonics... I assume your 2.3's were/ are on carpet... yes? Just curious, but...
... where is your sub/ 2.3's x-over set?
... have you ever calibrated your system and/or plotted a LF sweep for your sub/ system?
Asking as most of the other issues you described could be attributable to room response.

evhudsons

Thanks!!! That was the explanation I was looking for, very clear and easy to understand.

I spiked my subwoofer and noticed that before the entire wood floor , couch etc would vibrate but after spiking I felt the bass in the air. It was more like feeling the bass rather than hearing it if that makes sense. You still hear it of course but Before spiking it was the walls and floor rumbling. Its almost eerie in movies, and sounds great with music, much more life like especially with standup bass instruments.

rengnath

Thanks for all the information guys. Looks like my RT1000i towers are getting a raise, along with my sub. I ordered some slender spikes for the 1000is and some larger spikes for the sub from Dayton Audio.

drumminman

First, really nice taste in music there...

I'm really looking forward to your report with the sub set as it was before you spiked. With the sub left out you made two changes at once, and there is the possibility that your sub and 2.3's are fighting each other well into the mid-bass harmonics... I assume your 2.3's were/ are on carpet... yes? Just curious, but...
... where is your sub/ 2.3's x-over set?
... have you ever calibrated your system and/or plotted a LF sweep for your sub/ system?
Asking as most of the other issues you described could be attributable to room response.[/QUOTE]

Hey Tour2ma,

I decided to put the sub back in the system. The sub Xover is set at 40 hz IIRC to give a little push to the lowest notes.

The 2.3's are on carpet, but on either side of a fireplace with bookcase/alcoves on either side. Both speaks have to be ~5 feet from the back walls of the alcoves so the fireplace doesn't obstruct between the speaks. There is ~5 feet to side walls bilaterally. On the positive side I have vaulted ceiling, 18 foot peak with lots of angle, and the whole LR is open to the kitchen, as well as to a wide hall on the left. Not Ideal by any means, but not terrible.

Not sure what you mean by calibrate the system. Don?t know how to do a low frequency sweep.

evhudsons

I've calibrated everything except for my sub. My speakers are set to small, and I have adjusted my sub by ear to blend in with the rest of the system. I have the sub lfe crossover set at the highest on the list, 200 hz I think.

drumminman

Mine is a two channel set up in which I'm running the 2.3TL's full range with the sub playing the low notes to add a little presence, not volume. It blends extremely well as it's not possible to hear its output apart from the speaks, or determine its location with your eyes closed.

It's set up just inside the right speak, with the front of it on the same plane.

Tour2ma

LOL... I should hope you couldn't locate a sub crossed-in at 40 Hz... :cheesygrin:

drumminman wrote: »

I decided to put the sub back in the system. The sub Xover is set at 40 hz IIRC to give a little push to the lowest notes.

The 2.3's are on carpet, but on either side of a fireplace with bookcase/alcoves on either side. Both speaks have to be ~5 feet from the back walls of the alcoves so the fireplace doesn't obstruct between the speaks. There is ~5 feet to side walls bilaterally. On the positive side I have vaulted ceiling, 18 foot peak with lots of angle, and the whole LR is open to the kitchen, as well as to a wide hall on the left. Not Ideal by any means, but not terrible.

Not sure what you mean by calibrate the system. Don?t know how to do a low frequency sweep.

The way I read the above and your most recent post, it seems you're happy and that the spikes solved any glaring issues you had. If this is the case, I wouldn't sweat the calibration and sweep. From your description you seem to be blessed with a fairly forgiving bass management room... a lot of irregular and/or non-parallel surfaces which disperse very persistent deep bass reflections. Also helps that your sub is not near a room corner and you have arrived at such a low setting for your sub, 40 Hz...

Since I raised the cal (really an HT/ multi-ch audio concern) and sweep (equally 2-ch) issues, I don't want to leave you hanging, but I don't want to derail this thread further. If you're curious maybe start a thread in the Sub/ Bass Management section. I'll be happy to drop by over there...

'Til then here's a very long, 2008 post in another forum that looks exhaustive, but I have not as yet fully vetted it. Almost certainly some specifics are already outdated, e.g., Radio Shack no longer carries SPL Meters, but basic principles will remain valid...
http://forum.blu-ray.com/receivers/38765-calibrating-your-audio-spl-meter.html

evhudsons wrote: »

I've calibrated everything except for my sub. My speakers are set to small, and I have adjusted my sub by ear to blend in with the rest of the system. I have the sub lfe crossover set at the highest on the list, 200 hz I think.

ev,
I assume you are running a line level (interconnect cable) from your AVR's 'Sub/LFE Out' to your sub's 'LFE In' with the AVR's sub crossover set at 200... yes?

Again, don't want to get into a whole sub cal discussion here, but... a 200 Hz X-over is way high for a sub. Normal max is 110-ish. Issue is human ability to locate the bass source... something you do not want. Localization threshold varies from individual to individual. It is generally thought to start as low as 85 or 90 Hz, but almost all can locate it above 110 Hz.

Where you ultimately set your AVR will depend on your (and yours) hearing, and the capabilities/ limitations of your HT rig.

evhudsons

thanks tour2ma,

I am using the avr sub preout with interconnect to the adcom gfa555 amp. My receiver has to sub outs so I am using both, going to left and right input on the adcom. That then goes to my 4 ohm dr. crankenstein 15inch subs that were car audio in a sealed with plexi and also ported enclosure. The speakers are rated to handle some serious juice so I'm not to worried about blowing them unless they are underpowered. on the AVR I set the crossover that high only because it was there so I tried it. I was curious about the effects or reasons for the varied settings. I think it goes from 200, 160, 120, 90, 80, 60, 40

I'll try the 120 for now and see the difference. I know at one point I had it where you could feel the bass in the air, literally like pressure, and not the thump thump thud bass that I am not a fan of. I'm not getting the good bass now as I was before, and wasn't sure where the issue lie, so thanks for the advice!

I know it may not be the best subwoofer set up using a car audio speaker and speaker box, but it really cranks out some incredible bass that doesn't need to be turned up loud at all to really back up my bass deficient crs+ speakers. My sda speakers do put out really nice bass for such a small enclosure but they would sound better in a smaller room. My room now is big. the sda fills the room extremely well with the bass as an exception, which is why I use the sub. Plus the sub handles any lfe signals efficiently, better than any home theater subwoofers I've heard. It may be the fact that there is quite a bit of square feet of real air in the box, and I've had the speakers such a long time that they are broken in (2012-1993= 19 years, no way, how did I get so old so fast?!). They are sealed on the front side with a plexiglass window, and ported on the back side. the box is commercially produced, but I covered it in thin plywood to stain, and varnish to match the living room. I found no bad effects on sound and it was covered so that it doesn't rattle.

To keep this from going off the thread path, I did put four nails with pads into the subs to semi-spike them, but they are essentially push pins with min ibrads that I nailed in. The sub is too heavy for the regular sharp spikes, but I was wondering if I should go ahead and properly spike them. I have some meniscus spikes that I was going to order for that, and for my friends 1c's.

evhudsons

Ah, I get what you are saying about the sub localizing, I'll try it at 80 first then. I think that was the problem. LOl, I see that with that idea 200 would be rediculous.

evhudsons

Oh yeah much better thanks!

gwh

I spiked my 3.1's and now it seems I have less bass........WTF?:question:
Speakers are setting on stained slab.




G

gwh

Disregard the above post, I just ran some test tones with spikes then with the stock slider feet and there wasn't that much of a difference according to the rat shack meter. Tones were 36,40 42,44,50,66 Hz. So I'm not sure what I was hearing or maybe the spikes make a change to higher mid frequencies or?........ Yeah I'm a little confused.


Rock on!




G

bikezappa

gwh wrote: »

Disregard the above post, I just ran some test tones with spikes then with the stock slider feet and there wasn't that much of a difference according to the rat shack meter. Tones were 36,40 42,44,50,66 Hz. So I'm not sure what I was hearing or maybe the spikes make a change to higher mid frequencies or?........ Yeah I'm a little confused.

Try spiking just one speaker and play the test tones in mono. Use the balance control to make sound comparisons between the spiked and non-spiked speaker.

Tour2ma

evhudsons wrote: »

I am using the avr sub preout with interconnect to the adcom gfa555 amp... to my 4 ohm dr. crankenstein 15inch subs... The speakers are rated to handle some serious juice so I'm not to worried about blowing them unless they are underpowered. I think it goes from 200, 160, 120, 90, 80, 60, 40

I know at one point I had it where you could feel the bass in the air, literally like pressure, and not the thump thump thud bass that I am not a fan of.

To keep this from going off the thread path, I did put four nails with pads into the subs to semi-spike them, but they are essentially push pins with min ibrads that I nailed in. The sub is too heavy for the regular sharp spikes, but I was wondering if I should go ahead and properly spike them. I have some meniscus spikes that I was going to order for that, and for my friends 1c's.

evhudsons wrote: »

Ah, I get what you are saying about the sub localizing, I'll try it at 80 first then. I think that was the problem. LOl, I see that with that idea 200 would be rediculous.

LOL... Crankenstein... I love it. I would think 80 Hz would be as high as you'd want to go with the CRS+ mains. I'd also try 60 and 40, but I think 40 is probably too low...

Probably the "thump, thud" of the previous sub performance was the 200 Hz setting asking your sub's to make sounds that they couldn't reproduce cleanly. The pressurization you felt when you dropped the X-over point is a real, deep bass phenomenon and what sub fiends long for from their HT. The lower the cross frequency to the subs, the more amp power is available to produce "pressure". That your "boxed car subs" have room pressurization capability means you can officially quit apologizing for them. There are a lot of folks with "better" subs that have never felt what you reported. Just don't crack the plaster...

You don't have to worry about under-powering a sub... if a sub's amp clips there's no tweeter to suffer the consequences. At worst when the current supply becomes limiting and the waveform peaks flatten, the bass will get sloppy as the amp begins to lose control of the cone's motion. The flattop waveform results in rapider cone deceleration/ reverse acceleration that may result in the flexing/ distortion of the cone (seeing it produces a "Holy S**t" moment). Not that you should let clipping persist if you hear or see it, but permanent subwoofer damage is unlikely. On the other hand overdriving a sub is a concern as you reach the limits of travel of the cone and then parts start banging into each other. If you ever hear a mechanical "clank", immediately back off or damage will occur.

Will "real" spikes improve your sound? Maybe... Are your sub's now moving? (see below) With spikes on the way to you, it seems to me that unless replacing your makeshift spikes has the potential to damage your subs' boxes you might want to try them. However, once you swap to the new spikes you can't go back, nails will penetrate carpet more easily than fatter spikes will. And that takes us back to: Are your sub's now moving?

evhudsons wrote: »

Oh yeah much better thanks!

You're welcome...

gwh wrote: »

I spiked my 3.1's and now it seems I have less bass........WTF?:question:
Speakers are setting on stained slab.

gwh wrote: »

Disregard the above post, I just ran some test tones with spikes then with the stock slider feet and there wasn't that much of a difference according to the rat shack meter. Tones were 36,40 42,44,50,66 Hz. So I'm not sure what I was hearing or maybe the spikes make a change to higher mid frequencies or?........ Yeah I'm a little confused.

Kudos to you for running the sweeps...

On your surface spikes simply offer no advantage; you cannot increase the stability of something that is already stable. If you were expecting an improvement, which it seems you were, you may have simply "heard" your own disappointment when you didn't get what you were expecting. Far better than hearing an improvement that wasn't there...

If you want to hear the difference folks spiking on carpet hear, try this...
Install your sliders with two in opposite corners slightly (1/16" or so) longer so the 3.1's can wobble a bit...
Listen and measure...
Then level and compare.

phoppmann

I spiked my SDA 2bs ..... Great improvement in bass! The 2bs have a hollow box frame on their speaker's base - I used a couple aluminum angle brackets (as long as the box frame) that I attached to the frame with through bolts, and then the two spikes were mounted to the horizontal section of each bracket. A MUST DO tweak!

sda2mike

what is this 'hollow box frame' that you speak of?

F1nut

He's got the 2B studio model that has a 1" framed riser on the base. On that model I removed the riser, filled the screw holes and mounted 2" high spikes directly to the cabinet close to the corners. The 2" high spikes made up for the 1" loss of the frame and added an inch bringing the tweeter closer to ear level. Seemed to make better sense to me.