Tuning questions. Whats next?

JBD99ERIDE

Hi guys,
I have posted here like once before but have been reading alot for quite a while to try to learn on my own but I feel like I've hit a wall or am just plain missing something.

I have decided (unless I'm really nuts here) to run an active 3 way front stage since I already had SR6500's in the doors for years and recently got a set of 5250's I put in the kicks in Q-forms (I know)... but it seems to be working pretty well so far with nothing but time alignment done, which leads to the real question...

What is the next step tuning wise?

I'm using A Pio 880prs so limited on the EQ bands but has enough I guess.

LP-125/24db
mid low-125/24db
mid high-4k/24db
high-4k/24db

I played around with different points between the 5250 and 6500 and 125 seemed to work best so far, I wanted to go higher to around 250 only to use more of the 6500 (seems a waste no too) but it seemed way bloated and imaging suffered.

I have had SR6500's since they came out and always loved them but never had the proper equipment, hell I didnt know independent l/r eq's existed until recently.

After reading a bunch of posts from McLeod, arun, and several others I got really really amped up to make my system better. So I ditched the head unit I had and got the Pio and read some more and I feel like I dont know where to go next, logically.

I have not level matched midbass to mids/to tweet nor have I done any left/right balancing.

Some of this car audio stuff seems over my head, my profession is home audio and the two only carry over slightly to each other. Installing ,etc isnt an issue, I'm just lost on tuning.

Sorry if this was a long drawn out post but I wanted to explain myself somewhat.

Looking forward to the never ending madness...
Thank you

arun1963

The pio is a great unit. But it can't run a 3 way+ sub. Hence, I assume you're not running a sub. As a first step I would recommend that you add a sub and run a 2 way. The sr 6.5" will not give any impact below 40-50hz. In a 2way+sub I would cut the sub around 50hz@36db, then run the 6.5" from 50-4khz@24db at both ends and run the tweet 4khz@24db up.

The best part of the pio is the L/R eq. Get an spl meter and a good tuning disk and balance for L/R response. Remember an eq is for cutting not boosting. So balance by cutting both sides. These tuning disks also have technical tracks that let you test your time alignment. The chesky disk or the focal tuning disks are a good place to start.

Vital

I'm not sure i understand your cut off points as well as if you have a sub or not. According to your sig you do but then your LP is 125 and you have 2 (what it looks like to me) bandpasses?

MacLeod

Need to know a little more about your setup.

Are you biamping each set of components or running both mid and tweet running off a single channel thru the passive crossover?

arun1963

Damn I didn't see the sig:redface: . You have two pre outs for the sub. If you're using one to run the sub and splitting the other to run the 6.5", you've got a mono signal going to the 6.5". Just run the sub the 6.5" and the tweets.

Like already mentioned some details on how you've wired things would help.

JBD99ERIDE

Thanks for the replies.

Sorry for any confusion, the setup is slightly different than in the sig. I have a sr104 but it isnt hooked up at the moment, I will most likely hook it back up running from the pre output of the midbass in on the c400.4. Get what I mean?

C400.4-driving 6500 drivers and 5250 drivers
kenwood kac-606 (60x2)- SR tweets.
880 prs -runing all active except sub which I would cross over on the 500.1 and just deal with not having it time aligned, no biggie to me

May be running an ADS amp setup in the very near future which would give me 6/8 ch. I'll be using a P850 or P650.2 or PH15, have acess to all 3 buthavent decided which yet, depends too if I can discern any difference from the 400.4 but would tidy things up a bit in the hatch.

If I missed something please ask.

I have a disc I made of pink noise at 1/3 octave and at specifically the EQ bands available on the 880. i also put stereo and mono pink noise tsacks as well as sine wave tracks gor varios frequencies. I.m just not sure what to do with it...

Will adjusting left/right frequencies via the eq to get left/right balance essentially have the same result as tryng to level match mid to midbass to tweet, etc? Or is it the same thing. This is where i am a bit confused.

Thanks

JBD99ERIDE

Will look into the discs mentioned.

arun- I read in another thread you downloaded the focal discs, was that from their website?

MacLeod- Not bi-amping anything. No passives in the mix

I hope I'm explaining how things are connected ok in the previous post.

JBD99ERIDE

Vital- 3way front: sr6500 drivers from 125 down, 5250 bandpassed at 125-4k, tweets 4k up. No sub hooked up currently, will most likely in the future but it wont be through the head unit or time aligned, which I can deal with.

MacLeod

Id take the 5's down a little lower. Youre gonna want as many octaves coming from the same driver as possible and the 5's will play down to 50 Hz with not problem but 63 is usually the best place to cut them off as they can struggle down around 50.

As for EQ'ing, run down to Radio Shack and buy one of their SPL meters. They run around $40 IIRC and are invaluable tuning tools. If you have a smart phone like a Droid, you can download some SPL meter apps that are pretty accurate but wont go above 100 db in most cases and youre gonna get over 100 db in some instances.

Now what you would do next is run the test tones thru each driver independently and adjust them til theyre equal between left and right. However since the Pioneer has a L and R EQ, it doesnt have one for each driver so this will get a little tricky. Even though youve got your tweeters cut off at 4KHz, theyre still playing down low and I usually EQ an octave beyond the cutoff point.

This is the way I do it. I take the Chesky Ultimate Demonstration Disc and use the 1st track which is a narrator. I combine both L and R EQ's together and then while listening to his voice, I start at 63 Hz and turn the EQ up then down and leave it where it sounds right. I do this all the way up to 6.3KHz which is where the male voice starts to run out.

After Ive got that done, then I move on to level matching left and right sides. So take your test tones and turn off mids and tweets and play the test tones thru the left then right. Use the SPL meter to measure which side is loudest. Hold the SPL meter up to the headrest. Lean over a little and put it where your head is normally and slightly point it towards the speaker that is playing. Once you get to the cutoff frequency, move on to the next driver.

Like I said, you wont get it perfect because youll get like 2.5KHz playing too hot on one side thru the tweeters but you wont be able to fix it without **** up the mids but you should still be able to get it pretty damn close.

After youve got everything fairly level matched, now youll actually start listening to music. Listen to the types you like and adjust as needed.

One thing to remember, you will probably never be done. Youll think youve got it dialed in then the next day hear something you dont like and have to change it. Or you might just get by the tuning bug like me and Ill see you in the MECA lanes in the future.

tk421

two pairs of comps can be hard to tune.

my approach would be to keep in mind how the human ear localizes sound. ITD, IID and HRTF are terms you sound reference. allow the speakers to play within the correct ranges.

reference:
http://hybrid-audio.com/downloads/Hybrid%20Audio%20Legatia%20L3%20Users%20Manual.pdf

u asked for opinions.. so here goes:
-i would use just the 6.5 and set of tweets. but..if u wanted to use all speakers:

-6 1/2 : 50 to 500hz
-5 1/4 : 500 to 2000hz
-main tweets in kicks : 2000hz to 8000hz
-secondary (attenuated and delayed) tweets in a-pillars : above 8000hz

explanation:
the 6's would play midbass/bass and work on IID effect
the 5's would play midrange/midbass and work on both IID and ITD
the tweets do ITD. the main ones in the kicks would give a nice deep stage but to combat a rainbow stage, the secondary would pull the stage up, since our brains use above 8000 for primarily judging height.

use the chesky disc or the iasca test cd to help tune. aim first for bending the tweets with the mids/midbass to get as close as possible point source. do this individually for each side and then bring both L&R into play and delay near side.

level match your gains properly to save ur speakers. i've had my SRs for approx 3yrs and they still sound great. they're still rated as one of the top ten comps of all time by caraudiomag.com

MacLeod

It depends on how he's got them mounted. I guess I shouldve asked that too.

3 ways can work if youre using a smaller mid to be mounted in the kick panels or up on the dash or somewhere for better imaging. In that instance, you need the bigger midbass driver because the smaller mid just cant hit those frequencies with any balls.

But if youve just got the mid and midbass mounted together in the door, then there is no real point in it and youre just making the tuning process harder. Youre better off the fewer speakers you have.

JBD99ERIDE

Thanks Guys,

Mac- I have a Spl meter, no problem. Will also get a copy of the chesky disc, its been on my to do list for a while as I keep seeing you mention it.

The guy I got the q-forms from made a pair of enclosures for them but I think they are WAY too small to work well so I have them stuffed with poly for now instead. The thought had crossed my mind to use the enclosures he made but add a aperiodic vent, wonder how that would do, or if its even worth the effort?

I agree on them playing down into the 50 range but not in the Q-forms. They seem to fall on their face after 80-ish, hense my x-over points. Although earlier tonight I played around a little more with x-over pionts and I did really like running them all pass from 4k down with the 6500 drivers at 250 down and phase reversed. With phase normal, there was no midbass and the image smeared. I found this kinda odd since all the drivers are in correct relative phase. But it was definately not a small difference in bass response with them reversed. This seemed to be the best blend, at leat until I drive to work tomorow and realize it sounds like poo.

I def have the tuning bug and have for years. I've just recently gotten equipment (head unit) to allow me to start learning more and actually tune the system. Time alignment really is pretty amazing, I cant believe I went without it for so many years. And I actually used to think my system sounded good....:rolleyes:


tk421- Slight misunderstanding. I am only running 1pr tweeters, in the kicks with the 5250 drivers, and 1pr 6500 drivers in the doors for midbass. Sub will be reconnected later and crossed over at the amp but not time aligned.

I can't run the 6500 drivers as high as 500 due to head unit x-over restrictions, it would be nice if I could experiment with that. so far as stated above running the 5250 drivers full range from 4k down and the 6500 drivers from 250 down has provided the best blend.

I do have a set of SR tweets mounted to sail panels sitting around from the original install I could try instead of the kick mounted tweets, maybe I will do that at some point. I know what you mean about the rainbow effect but so far it doesnt seem too awful . At least I have the option.


I had MM6's and an mm12 for a while and moved to the SR6500's and SR104 when they first came out. I originally had 2pr of the 6500's, well, still do, but over the years ended up fading all the way to the front and eventually took the rears out of the car completely. Then I started playing with them active through the C400.4's X-over and that led to the new headunit and all this madness. Then I ended up with a set of 5250 drivers and threw them in for grins in the kicks which was when I decided to try the 3way thing and hooked the 6 1/2's in the doors back up.


Sorry I keep writing books....
Thanks!

JBD99ERIDE

Should I take a pic of the speaker placement install? I feel like I've really confused everyone....

tk421

MacLeod wrote: »

But if youve just got the mid and midbass mounted together in the door, then there is no real point in it and youre just making the tuning process harder. Youre better off the fewer speakers you have.

confirmed

tk421

tk421 wrote: »

-main tweets in kicks : 2000hz to 8000hz
-secondary (attenuated and delayed) tweets in a-pillars : above 8000hz

correction!

my bad... both sets should play the same range.

reference:
http://www.teamaudionutz.com/tutorial/2/SQ_system_Set-Ups_and_the_Theories_Behind_Them

Joe08867

tk421, in reference to your last post that all should be the same. That would work if all the speakers were in the same location but considering they are in the kick, door and sail panels, that won't work. You would hear the tweeters well before the the other speakers. And besides the same frequencies across the board would smear the soundstage.

I would use the method tk241 said earlier and send more lows to the 6500s and more mids to the 5250s.. I also wouldn't go below 80hz with the doors personally. The sub will more than make up the difference form 80 down..

JBD99ERIDE

I'm limited in x-over points by the head- 880prs as high as I can go on the 6500's is 250 down and can't band pass them.

There seems to be a bit of confusion as far as my tweeter go. They are in the kicks woth the 5250 drivers. There are no other tweeters, just the one pair.

The link from hybrid audio that tk421 posted was a good read, by the way. Thanks.

I haven't done any further tuning aside from trying different crossover points to see what works best as I have been working on some ADS amps I want to try. Got one installed last night (p840) after rewiring the shredded din cable so well see how it compares to the 400.4 I had. Have two other ads amps to try too... P640.2 and a PH15.

I sort of feel like the general consensus here is that maybe it's a waste of my time/effort to get this working as a 3 way. The reason I did it was I was never super thrilled by the 6500's midrange in the doors off axis( could have been lack of tuning ability though) and I had all the stuff on hand. I will say that I would def use the 6500's if I went back to the original 2 way confit as the 5250's in the kicks have no midbass. I know they would do fine in the doors but there wouldn't be much of a point in swapping them in instead of the 6500 drivers.

arun1963

Joe08867 wrote: »

tk421, in reference to your last post that all should be the same. That would work if all the speakers were in the same location but considering they are in the kick, door and sail panels, that won't work. You would hear the tweeters well before the the other speakers. And besides the same frequencies across the board would smear the soundstage.

I would use the method tk241 said earlier and send more lows to the 6500s and more mids to the 5250s.. I also wouldn't go below 80hz with the doors personally. The sub will more than make up the difference form 80 down..

Time alignment on his hu would fix that.

arun1963

JBD99ERIDE wrote: »

I'm limited in x-over points by the head- 880prs as high as I can go on the 6500's is 250 down and can't band pass them.

There seems to be a bit of confusion as far as my tweeter go. They are in the kicks woth the 5250 drivers. There are no other tweeters, just the one pair.

The link from hybrid audio that tk421 posted was a good read, by the way. Thanks.

I haven't done any further tuning aside from trying different crossover points to see what works best as I have been working on some ADS amps I want to try. Got one installed last night (p840) after rewiring the shredded din cable so well see how it compares to the 400.4 I had. Have two other ads amps to try too... P640.2 and a PH15.

I sort of feel like the general consensus here is that maybe it's a waste of my time/effort to get this working as a 3 way. The reason I did it was I was never super thrilled by the 6500's midrange in the doors off axis( could have been lack of tuning ability though) and I had all the stuff on hand. I will say that I would def use the 6500's if I went back to the original 2 way confit as the 5250's in the kicks have no midbass. I know they would do fine in the doors but there wouldn't be much of a point in swapping them in instead of the 6500 drivers.

Ok one more time........

1. Setup: The p-880 is not meant for a 3 way. It is meant for a 2 way plus sub. So use it that way. Go with the 6.5" and the tweeter and hook up the sub. Cross the sub and 6.5" 50-63hz, put the sub on a 36db slope and the mids on the 24db. Then cross the mids and tweets at 4khz with both on a 24db slope. Leave it here for a while. You basically have 3 tuning functions on your hu xovers/slopes, ta and eq. For a start keep one fixed and play with the others. Eventually you will learn to use all three together.

2. Placement: You can run the 6.5 in the door or the kicks. Both will be fine. Yes there are advantages / drawbacks to each, but for now you have a lot of other and more important things to worry about. Get your tweets out of the kicks. They should be atleast at dash level or a bit higher on the pillars. Your brain locates 'height cues' from 2khz up. A driver playing these frequencies from a higher physical height will help with stage height.

3. Tuning: You have the spl, meter and the the tuning disk. Macs given you a detailed explanation on setting up the eq. I would start by checking on the ta and then doing the eq. A good way to start would be to measure the distance of each driver from the tip of your nose. You sitting and someone else measuring would be good. Once you've set the physical distances, now add a further 15-20" delay to all the drivers. You should feel the stage height rising a bit. You should now have a decent centre image with the bulk of the sound from the front.

Some things you can check. Play only your far mid and the sub, you should feel like the sub frequencies are playing from the mid. Cut the sub and only play the mids. All the tuning cds will have technical tracks one of them is where the same track is played in phase and then out of phase. 'In phase' should focus up in front of you and 'out of phase' should focus up at your speakers.

Take it in small steps and remember, the better your sound gets the more issues you'll discover. So always focus on whats wrong/missing. You have a 2ch setup. Use that as a ref point. Have patience cause this is going to take a while.

One last point, the SR6500 has great midrange.

JBD99ERIDE

arun1963 wrote: »

Ok one more time........

1. Setup: The p-880 is not meant for a 3 way. It is meant for a 2 way plus sub. So use it that way. Go with the 6.5" and the tweeter and hook up the sub. Cross the sub and 6.5" 50-63hz, put the sub on a 36db slope and the mids on the 24db. Then cross the mids and tweets at 4khz with both on a 24db slope. Leave it here for a while. You basically have 3 tuning functions on your hu xovers/slopes, ta and eq. For a start keep one fixed and play with the others. Eventually you will learn to use all three together.

True, but that doesnt mean it cant "work", the sub just wont be time aligned. Had it hooked up like tis originally for years(6500's only), and left it this way for a while after I got the 880. Not trying to argue at all, as I respect your input but it seemed like something was missing from the 6500's in the doors and to me the current config sounds more like what I am used to in 2ch home audio.

2. Placement: You can run the 6.5 in the door or the kicks. Both will be fine. Yes there are advantages / drawbacks to each, but for now you have a lot of other and more important things to worry about. Get your tweets out of the kicks. They should be atleast at dash level or a bit higher on the pillars. Your brain locates 'height cues' from 2khz up. A driver playing these frequencies from a higher physical height will help with stage height.

In part, see above. I do agree with the tweets, they arent ideal down there. A-pillar is out, there isnt any room. Hav some in spare sails I could put back in to try and disconnect the ones in the kicks. I would run 6500's in the doors, I dont want to build kicks, not to mention I dont have the space down there to make an appropriate enclosure for them.

3. Tuning: You have the spl, meter and the the tuning disk. Macs given you a detailed explanation on setting up the eq. I would start by checking on the ta and then doing the eq. A good way to start would be to measure the distance of each driver from the tip of your nose. You sitting and someone else measuring would be good. Once you've set the physical distances, now add a further 15-20" delay to all the drivers. You should feel the stage height rising a bit. You should now have a decent centre image with the bulk of the sound from the front.

Yep, got the tools, just need to finalize some things. Have an issue with the amp I put in last night and still need to decide if I want to use one of the 3 I just acquired, so yeah I'm a bit all over the map at the moment. I'm not gonna do any serious tuning til I finalize the install.

Some things you can check. Play only your far mid and the sub, you should feel like the sub frequencies are playing from the mid. Cut the sub and only play the mids. All the tuning cds will have technical tracks one of them is where the same track is played in phase and then out of phase. 'In phase' should focus up in front of you and 'out of phase' should focus up at your speakers.

Read several threads where you have recommended this. I have done it with pretty good results. It was one of the first things I put into practice after reading on here a while.

Take it in small steps and remember, the better your sound gets the more issues you'll discover. So always focus on whats wrong/missing. You have a 2ch setup. Use that as a ref point. Have patience cause this is going to take a while.

I agree. I do need to get some things finalized before really diving into tuning. Yes I have several 2 ch systems for reference... I luckily have lots of patience

One last point, the SR6500 has great midrange.

Indeed it does. Maybe I am just hard headed and "want" to make this work

Thanks for the continued input guys, Its greatly appreciated!

JBD99ERIDE

Yep, I really am hard headed...:rolleyes:

Finished the a/d/s amp install with the exception of tidying things up and went back to a 2way w/ sub.
SR6500 drivers in the doors and tweets in the sail panels mostly on axis.

Did a quick T/A and things seem more focused than before and the stage seems broader. The sub is still not in as I have to mount the enclosure but hopefully that will be sometime this week/weekend and I can start actually tuning.

Again, thanks guys.
Sometimes simpler is better.

JBD99ERIDE

When trying to level match L/R channels, should I be using sine wave tones or pink noise tones with an SPL meter?

arun1963

I would go with pink noise.

JBD99ERIDE

That's what I used after trying sine tones. So I basically want to go up the eq bands with punk noise tones on left and right an basically even them out? Example- if left ch is +4db at 500hz and right is 0db at 500hz, cut left ch 4db? And do this for all bands? That about right?

Thanks

arun1963

On the p-880 cut or boost is +/- 2db. Start balancing by cutting both sides. So if 500 hz is hotter on one side by by 4db then set it something like -3L/-1R instead of -2L/0R.

JBD99ERIDE

Ok will try. Somehow all my settings got erased from what I did last night so will be doing it over again anyway...

Any particular reason why to not have it -2/0?

arun1963

Better balance.