Monster HTS3500

Glowrdr

So, I've got a Monster HTS3500. Well, recently (in the last week or so) the unit keeps wanting to turn itself off. I'd get home from work and see that it was off, but none of my clocks or anything else would be reset (telltale sign of power outage)

Well, I turn it back on and all is well. I'm watching TV as I write this, and the unit shut off on me. This is the first time I've actually witnessed it in real life.

Besides the canned "It's Monster, It's crap" response - any ideas? It's worked fine for the past 4-5 years with no issues. Is there a life expectancy of these things, or is there just something wrong with mine? I plan on checking into the warranty of the unit, but I need to wait until Monday to do so. All of the lights are lit on the front, so that would appear to me that I didn't take a hit in the recent storms.

If I can get a freebie from Monster, I would most certainly take them up on the offer. But if they leave me high and dry - any recommendations? I'd like to keep under $200 if possible. I paid more for this originally, but financially I've got more responsibilities than I did 5 years ago too. The only requirement that I really have is that it needs to be a rack-mountable style unit. Not that I am mounting it - but I purchases this one for $400 over the $200 powerstrip version just for the fact that I had an extra shelf to fill.

Are Monster power centers worthwhile, or should I be looking at APC or some other brand? Thanks for the input all.

Glowrdr

I do like the SurgeX stuff, but then once I actually started checking on prices - there is no way I can drop $800 for a starting unit. (Without knowing the prior models, I'm just pricing current ones)

Anyone able to give any thoughts on the APC H15 ($223) or the Belkin PF60 ($139)? Tough to read through all of the marketing to make a direct comparison as everyone's product seems to be the best one. I'm really liking the Belkin for price and the "coolness factor" when on display - but I want to be sure I'm not overlooking any benefits from another product.

Gadabout

I have 2 of the monsters, but they haven't given me any of the issues you describe. I know that doesn't help much, but on the 2ch system I have a Belkin PF60. I prefer the features of the Belkin over the monster.

I do like APC products but have only bought their battery back-up units

To Westom ... who is sure to post in this thread:
I have a Square D whole house surge protector. I'm sure none of this is up to you standards and I don't care. You cannot enlighten me, I'm too stupid to understand.

Scott

Edit: Let me know if I can answer some specifics for you on the Belkin.

Glowrdr

Pricewise, and looks - I actually prefer the Belkin. Although some of the reviews I've seen seem to think the APC has a better voltage leveling system.

My current Monster doesn't do any type of leveling, and I happen to live in an area that I see brownouts (is that what it's called when all your lights dim for a second?) so I am interested in something to combat the effect on my equipment. I'd say 40% of the time it will turn off my receiver or SAT box, but it's not enough to reset clocks or anything.

Does the Belkin prevent things like that from happening? Or is that the true purpose of a UPS based system? I've read the stats and understand the boost and trim aspect, but I guess what I'm unsure of, is what levels I'm likely to be seeing during these flickering moments - if it will stay in an acceptable level (89+ volts), or if the unit would just power down regardless.

sk1939

APC makes some nice gear. I too have only dealt with their UPS's (commercial grade however) so I don't know about the H15, but they tend to have decent support for their products.

The APC has a better surge rating, AVR protection (1500VA capacity), and a better support.

APC Rear Panel : http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3568/3383441351_59d7e877f4.jpg

The Belkin is a lot cheaper, by about $80, has better total spike protection, an additional outlet, more isolated filter banks, and network protection. I haven't read anything that makes me think that the Belkin does AVR, Belkin's own documentation says that it only does noise filtering. The biggest giveaway is that APC provides a rating (1.5kVa) which generally means it has something that uses a transformer (rectifier for UPS, isolation transformer, AVR etc.). Alternatively you could get the Belkin, and then get a TRIPP LITE LC1200 ($90) for AVR, and still just be $10 ahead of the price of the APC unit.

Belkin Rear Panel : http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image.php?image=1620778&is_user=0

I personally don't use a power center-type device (not counting a Furman PDU), but given that you suffer from brownouts, something with AVR is practially a must.

Polkie2009

Have you considered a used SurgeX unit? Maybe if Monster screws you over ,you can find a used SurgeX around $200.

Gadabout

Glowrdr wrote: »

My current Monster doesn't do any type of leveling, and I happen to live in an area that I see brownouts (is that what it's called when all your lights dim for a second?) so I am interested in something to combat the effect on my equipment. I'd say 40% of the time it will turn off my receiver or SAT box, but it's not enough to reset clocks or anything.

Does the Belkin prevent things like that from happening? Or is that the true purpose of a UPS based system? I've read the stats and understand the boost and trim aspect, but I guess what I'm unsure of, is what levels I'm likely to be seeing during these flickering moments - if it will stay in an acceptable level (89+ volts), or if the unit would just power down regardless.

My monsters don't do any type of power leveling. They are mainly over/under voltage protection by shutting things down. If I'm not mistaken, they shut things down at around 80v AC.

I took another read at the Belkin manual. From my reading it looks like the Belkin is over voltage only. I mainly put it on the 2ch system for the filtering and also the delayed timers when powering up so everything goes on in sequence. (I thought it did under voltage as well.)

Since you have issues with brown outs / low voltage times, you would be better off getting a UPS system. It will beep when you get a low voltage condition but the battery will supply the correct voltage during the fluctuation. If the power goes completely out just remember to power everything down before the battery looses it's charge.

Scott

Glowrdr

Anyone have any idea if I'd truly need a UPS to combat the low voltage, or is this what the "voltage boost" function of conditioners is supposed to do? I don't want to spend money on something that isn't going to work for me, but I wasn't hoping to get into the $400+ range for a true HT UPS solution.

If I see the lights dimming - is it too late for a conditioner w/o a battery backup? Probably not a question that can be truely answered but I figure maybe someone has run into that before perhaps during a storm or something.

sk1939

The H15 and the LC1200 would work for overvoltage, and most brownouts, but brownouts below 88V or so would cause a shutdown. A UPS would fix the super low brownouts or loss of power. UPS's have the issue of going to battery should an overvoltage-undervoltage occur, wearing the battery. If you have a lot of brownouts, your UPS will be hitting the battery a lot shortening it's life. Devices like the LC1200 use a transformer which fix that by using the transformer rather than a rectifier/battery combination.

LC1200 Specs:
Input voltages over 128V are reduced by 9.6% (+/- 3V)
Input voltages between 103 and 112V are boosted by 8.9% (+/- 3V)
Input voltages below 102V are boosted by 18.8% (+/- 3V)

You could also look at an isolation transformer which provices the following:
-Removes EMI/RFI noise, utility switching transients, background spikes and power problems generated by other on-site loads, utility grid-switching and lightning related surges.
-Line isolation with additional surge suppression components offer continuous line filtering of a full range of power line noise in all modes.
-Active filtering with no wearable parts reduces surges in the worst of power environments to harmless levels

20hz

I had that problem I live in a duplex its so bad when my neighbor runs the vacuum cleaner MY voltage drops below 90 volts and my panamax shuts off .
A upc wont maintain it will just shut off if its low .
I got a sorenson computer grade voltage isolator transformer mine weigths like 50+ lbs and is good for like 8 amps .
What the sorenson does it keep the voltage stabile (117volts) .
And pg&e came out ran a test and said " its perfectly fine" well I think if my tv goes off when the neighbor runs the vacuum its not , considering we are on differeant circuits , they get their own bill .
Well I still got the beast but I suggest looking locally for one shipping would be big bucks .
If you cant find one let me know ..

Outfitter03

Glowrdr wrote: »

Anyone have any idea if I'd truly need a UPS to combat the low voltage, or is this what the "voltage boost" function of conditioners is supposed to do? I don't want to spend money on something that isn't going to work for me, but I wasn't hoping to get into the $400+ range for a true HT UPS solution.

If I see the lights dimming - is it too late for a conditioner w/o a battery backup? Probably not a question that can be truely answered but I figure maybe someone has run into that before perhaps during a storm or something.

Operating with voltages out of specification is never good. That being said, most equipment has some form or another of installed protection for under voltage situations. Usually in the form of internal fuses or breakers. As the voltage decreases the current increases and will cause the fuses to blow or the breaker to trip. Unless you are operating right on the edge (high volumes), short brown outs usually will not cause a protective function as even fast acting fuses have some time delay.

High voltage conditions are much worse. Most equipment does not have high voltage protection. The unit will draw less current and the high voltage will stress the components and possibly cause failures, specifically in semi conductors or electrolytic capacitors if outside of their operating range.

Some of the units offer constant voltage sources. I just purchased a Furman unit for my workplace as the equipment it is attached to is very voltage sensitive. The Furman has a range of input voltages it will handle through the use of a multitap transformer to maintain a constant output voltage. If the voltage goes outside that range, it will automatically shut down protecting the equipment.

So to summarize, power conditioners can include the following features, but the functions are separate:

Auto shut off for high and/or low voltages.
Surge protection.
Voltage regulation.
Noise filtering.
Battery backup utilizing a DC to AC inverter.

The battery backup is mostly required for computers as they can be sensitive to rapid shutdowns and this can result in loss of data and corrupted files.

Glowrdr

Cool - thanks for the answers guys. Sounds like I should be able to get by with a decent conditioner, rather than the UPS solution at this time (aka account balance)

Marty913

Just a comment or two on the original question (HTS3500), I have a HTS2500 that is approximately the same age as yours (a little older actually). It also began to act flaky a few months ago including just shutting down on occasion. I can't say whether yours is broken or acting normally buy in my case I think the MOV's are reaching end-of-life. I'm guessing Monster probably does not use the highest quality components, or anything near reflective of their prices. Mine was a gift so I figured I would just replace it with either the Belkin or the H15 and am pretty close to ordering.

My understanding from reading the manuals is that the basic difference between the two is the above-mentioned voltage regulation with the H15 (particularly the low voltage boost) versus the flexibility (bank outlet control and monitoring per bank). The joule rating on the Belkin is a little higher and some would argue the cosmetics are a little better on the Belkin. Of course the $90 price difference is a consideration.

Anyway, I'm leaning toward the Belkin but haven't made a final decision yet. I like the idea of voltage regulation but my power here in North Florida is pretty stable (hurricanes aside) so it may boil down to basic surge protection, filtering, cosmetics, and price. Tough call.

Glowrdr

Well I just got off the phone with Monster, and I must have overlooked the fact that there is only a 5 year warranty. No point in even dealing with them at this point.

As much as I like the Belkin for the coolness factor, and its protection - my situation is pretty much a nail in the coffin for needing something like the H15. I can't really afford a UPS system unless I'm at the right place at the right time and can snag one for a steal. If anyone wants to take on a challenge and PM me if something becomes available - I'm all for it.

(Monster did try to sell me their ONE system that did voltage regulation, it was $1700...lol)

Polkie2009

So your Monster is indeed out of warranty? (you mentioned you've had it 4 -5 yrs.)

Glowrdr

Yeah, I haven't gone to Best Buy to check on the receipt. But, I've lived at my house for 9 years, and I bought it here. I've been married for 4 next month - and this was here long before my wife was. I'm now guessing 6-7, but I'm almost positive it's over 5. Not to mention the fact that I probably should move onto the proper gear needed (although I could always sell the warranty replacement that is unlikely I'd even get). I assumed it was 10 for some odd reason (maybe from another recent Belkin purchase or something?)

Edit - Just checked Amazon. Date first available at Amazon.com: August 15, 2000. I bought it new from Best Buy, so I could assume they might have kept the same model for 2-3 years perhaps. But there's no way this thing was still in the store 6 years after the manufacture date

sk1939

Well I guess the H15 looks like a good option for you then. Alternatively like I said, you could always get an external AVR solution like the LC1200 as well, and use whatever conditioner you want. With all AVR solutions the one thing you have to be careful about are if you have power amps. Some AVR's might not be able to handle the sudden inrush of current. The APC H15 should be able to handle it, but some other units might not.

Furman makes AVR solutions they're somewhere around $800 for the commercial grade unit or $1400 for the nicely polished residential solution, and Panamax's solution is $730.

If you get a chance I would also look at the Furman P-8 Pro which has isolated filter banks, and seperated filtering sections for analogue and digital equipment. It dosen't have AVR however, but I think it's worth a cursory look.

Glowrdr

I do not have any amps, and when the time and finances come around, I probably wouldn't hesitate to replace some existing equipment to suit my needs.

At first I was thinking an all-in-one like the H15 was the best option. But now I'm almost wondering about your idea (sk1939). I notice most surge protectors have a 5 year warranty, but the line conditioners are usually lifetime (think I remember that, could be wrong though)

I wonder for long term cost, and warranty coverage - if I'm better off having the warranty "seperated" on the 2 different products? Not that I plan on being broke for 5-10 years where I'd need to start replacing out of warranty items, but it was just a thought in the back of my head.

Are there any benefits one way or another? Are the surge/conditioner units built to be more compatible and work in tandem better? Or are seperates the way to go with the thought that you buy a uni-tasker that's good at what it does?

sk1939

Having the warranty seperated can be both good and bad. On the plus side should something go wrong it means you only have to replace one piece of gear, which would probably be of lower cost than replacing a unit that combines two pieces of gear.

The benefits of them being seperate are the ability to mix and match pieces (e.g APC AVR, Belkin conditioner or APC AVR, Furman Conditioner, or Tripp Lite AVR, APC conditioner, etc) . The benefit of them being a single unit is the simplicity, and the ability to reduce troubleshooting to a single piece of gear, as well as taking up less space.

The problem with buying a uni-tasker in this case is the fact that the price will be high. The cheapest APC solution is ~$250. You can get an APC AVR for ~$50, and a Tripp Lite Isobar for another ~$60, and have a decent solution for less than half the price for example. The advantage again with seperates is that you can mix and match components, simplicity as far as internal components (less stuff to fail), as well as the cost. The advantage of a unified solution is the feature set, and the simplicity of having one box.

Glowrdr

K - last question then. lol I'm going to be headed to bed so I don't want to start researching anything tonight. But, would a Line-R be the thing you are talking about? I wasn't sure if that was something that I could use, or if there are different "ratings" on AVR's as well. I'll find out on my own, but if you could confirm this - it may make my research a little easier. I do think it will be in my best interest to buy seperates for now. Once I am ready for a more rebust solution, I may check into something more along the lines of the S15 (or similar)

Thanks again for all of the help and info everyone. I'm a big techy, but I've only ditched my HTiB last December (as you can probably tell by everything current in my sig), so I'm pretty green in this specific area

sk1939

There are line ratings for AVR's, most of them are rated by VA. 1200 VA like the Tripp Lite I mentioned is about 760W @ 120V of capacity.

20hz

Glowrdr wrote: »

Well I just got off the phone with Monster, and I must have overlooked the fact that there is only a 5 year warranty. No point in even dealing with them at this point.

As much as I like the Belkin for the coolness factor, and its protection - my situation is pretty much a nail in the coffin for needing something like the H15. I can't really afford a UPS system unless I'm at the right place at the right time and can snag one for a steal. If anyone wants to take on a challenge and PM me if something becomes available - I'm all for it.

(Monster did try to sell me their ONE system that did voltage regulation, it was $1700...lol)[/QUOTeI

I thought Monster did NOT warrenty equipment damaged when it was plugged into their equipment wheras Panamax did
CHECK IT OUT !

Glowrdr

$100,000 Connected Equipment Warranty (Not that it really matters to me though, as I will not be a returning customer)

I would assume their protection warranty would also only be for the 5 years? Doesn't make much sense for them to honor insurance claims for items after they have given up on the product itself.

Glowrdr

Just an update on my long-standing indecisiveness - after waffling back and forth from the H15 and the PF60, I decided to give my dads beige Smart-1000 a try (needs new battery though). Even though I would be maxing it out, figured it was worth a shot as I can't watch TV for an hour now without my Monster shutting down.

Well, before I even picked up the 1000, I was checked CL and found a brand new in box Smart-1500 (black) for $125. This will give me some safety overhead, an AVR that I need, with the added bonus of battery backup for my DVR. It has a very low surge rating, but as I've stated before - I'm not exactly sure what the point of no return for a surge is anyways (there is connected equipment coverage anyways)

The only thing I will have to find out, is if I will really miss any of the filtering. If I do, I may just buy a cheap strip with some isolation built in and connect that to the UPS.

sk1939

Don't EVER plug a UPS into a surge protector you will KILL the UPS. The UPS you have is line-interactive/sine-wave anyways, meaning that it runs constantly from the battery, and is constantly recharged while outputting relatively clean power. For $125 I say you got a good deal considering that is a $700 unit (just bought a bunch).

dcmartinpc

I know I am coming into this late in the game, but have you looked at the Tripp Lite LCR2400? It is industrial looking and very basic, but it is a line conditioner with Automatic Voltage Regulation. I run 2 of them currently and love them! I even have my Parasound HCA-3500 plugged into it and I have never had a problem pulling the current I need!!! Great device, and can be had for about $250 if I remember correctly...

Don't mean to muddy the waters, but I really like this unit and it works so darn well, I wanted to at least mention it. It is not a UPS, but I don't like plugging amplifiers or receivers into battery backups anyways. Anything with a high transient current draw I only run on big power conditioners like the LCR2400 or plug straight in the wall!

Don

Glowrdr

Ok.. so the CL guy was a little wishy washy, seemed to be "too busy" to meet with me. I ended up weighing my choices and I pulled the trigger on the PF60.

Granted, no AVR or battery. But, it's really all that I need to replace what I currently have. I've got brownouts, and flaky power. But I really never started having issues until recently, so I think I can attribute a lot of that to a dying power center (not all power issue, but the ones with my equipment shutting off all the time) Plus with the lifetime warranty, I won't have any residual expenses down the road.

FYI in case anyone has been considering this particular model - I found that ProVantage had an excellent deal on them @ $137 (+shipping)