Longer term review on the RTi12
naturallight
Posts: 689
A longer term review of the 12's since i have about 150 hours on them. They are for lack of a better term.."accurate" These speakers are NOT brite, nor do they lack bass. This is a strict 2 channel stereo system, music only. When you first take them out of the box, they may appear to be brite, but they need time to break-in. They need a good 100 hours before they start to loosen up.
You also need a big high power, high current amp to run these. If you don't, i just don't see them sounding that good.
The nasty term " accurate" pretty much describes these speakers. They will show up any weak link in you audio chain. You pretty much need at least a fairly decent preamp and cd player. I have run thru a number of cd's now. The weak link is the source material. These speakers just show up badly recorded material. NOT the speakers fault. What may be ok on other speakers, are just not on these. At least for serious listening. On my Adcom preamp, i have a bass and treble control. Probably something you need with these speakers. I normally leave them in the 12 oclock position, but some cd's just need correction. Case in point:
Claptons 24 nights double cd. Pretty much recorded perfectly. His vocals are spot on, same with his backup singers. His guitar is perfect. You can feel and hear his fingers on the fretboard. A great CD.
The Doobie Brothers Rocking down the highway double cd, on the other hand is not. I don't know if these were remastered analog tapes of live performances or what the story is with this. But there vocals for the most part sound like there using cheap mic's. Which of course they were not. Probably to compressed by the engineer. To correct this i had to turn the treble UP....to bring out what the vocals should be. But again NOT the fault of the speakers. Your just getting what the engineer did on the cd. Probably on alot of speakers you may not notice this. On the 12's you do. I have NOT had to turn up the bass, on any cd. The back of the 12's sit about 9" off the back wall. The bass is there in spades. It is what it should be, not overly exaggerated. You feel the drummers kick drum..chest feel. There is no need for a sub. At least if your listening to music. The bass is correct for the cd's played.
The sound stage feels very open and spacious. It of course dose not sound like SDA's, but nothing dose. I have not toe'd them in, but i'm also sitting about 12 feet back in the room, and there about 9 feet apart. They still come across as very wide and open. These speakers are very tall, throw alot of sound at you. Due to the size of the room and the make up of the room, they are usually played pretty loud.
On classical recordings, you can pic out were the instruments are on the stage. You have that depth of feel.
You also hear everything the audience is doing, when it's quiet. Every cough, shuffle of feet whatever.
Most cd's are played between 10-11 oclock position on the Adcom. Even in a 14x28 foot room, with a bar at the other end. To sit at the bar, at that volume level..can't really carry on a conversation. They pretty much fill that size room with sound.
I guess the "audiophile" definition of a great speaker, is it has to be "accurate" but not overbearing maybe. I'm not really sure anymore. since the trend seems to be spend mega bucks on a small speaker, put it on a stand then spend alot more on a sub. Which i'm not sure what the point is in that, since you can turn the bass up or down depending on you liking. Which ok, so you spent 2K on some really "accurate" small speakers, but which put out no bass...so whats your point. To be honest, i don't care how much you spend on equipment, at a certain point, you can't make the source material any better then it is. You can correct it, so it's passable, but thats about it.
I can really find no major faults with the 12's. They will play anything from Zappa to classical. They are not one trick ponys. They are very "accurate" not sure i would want a MORE "accurate" speaker. They are not Martin Logans, so maybe could be lacking in some mids, but then again, they don't cost 3K and don't need a sub.
I'm not sure there is a "perfect speaker" But everything should be based on a price point. At the price i got them at, it's an outright steal. Even at there original price of $1600 there still a steal. I'm not sure you could find 3K speakers that will be better. But thats all going to depend on the equipment you have to run them.
You also need a big high power, high current amp to run these. If you don't, i just don't see them sounding that good.
The nasty term " accurate" pretty much describes these speakers. They will show up any weak link in you audio chain. You pretty much need at least a fairly decent preamp and cd player. I have run thru a number of cd's now. The weak link is the source material. These speakers just show up badly recorded material. NOT the speakers fault. What may be ok on other speakers, are just not on these. At least for serious listening. On my Adcom preamp, i have a bass and treble control. Probably something you need with these speakers. I normally leave them in the 12 oclock position, but some cd's just need correction. Case in point:
Claptons 24 nights double cd. Pretty much recorded perfectly. His vocals are spot on, same with his backup singers. His guitar is perfect. You can feel and hear his fingers on the fretboard. A great CD.
The Doobie Brothers Rocking down the highway double cd, on the other hand is not. I don't know if these were remastered analog tapes of live performances or what the story is with this. But there vocals for the most part sound like there using cheap mic's. Which of course they were not. Probably to compressed by the engineer. To correct this i had to turn the treble UP....to bring out what the vocals should be. But again NOT the fault of the speakers. Your just getting what the engineer did on the cd. Probably on alot of speakers you may not notice this. On the 12's you do. I have NOT had to turn up the bass, on any cd. The back of the 12's sit about 9" off the back wall. The bass is there in spades. It is what it should be, not overly exaggerated. You feel the drummers kick drum..chest feel. There is no need for a sub. At least if your listening to music. The bass is correct for the cd's played.
The sound stage feels very open and spacious. It of course dose not sound like SDA's, but nothing dose. I have not toe'd them in, but i'm also sitting about 12 feet back in the room, and there about 9 feet apart. They still come across as very wide and open. These speakers are very tall, throw alot of sound at you. Due to the size of the room and the make up of the room, they are usually played pretty loud.
On classical recordings, you can pic out were the instruments are on the stage. You have that depth of feel.
You also hear everything the audience is doing, when it's quiet. Every cough, shuffle of feet whatever.
Most cd's are played between 10-11 oclock position on the Adcom. Even in a 14x28 foot room, with a bar at the other end. To sit at the bar, at that volume level..can't really carry on a conversation. They pretty much fill that size room with sound.
I guess the "audiophile" definition of a great speaker, is it has to be "accurate" but not overbearing maybe. I'm not really sure anymore. since the trend seems to be spend mega bucks on a small speaker, put it on a stand then spend alot more on a sub. Which i'm not sure what the point is in that, since you can turn the bass up or down depending on you liking. Which ok, so you spent 2K on some really "accurate" small speakers, but which put out no bass...so whats your point. To be honest, i don't care how much you spend on equipment, at a certain point, you can't make the source material any better then it is. You can correct it, so it's passable, but thats about it.
I can really find no major faults with the 12's. They will play anything from Zappa to classical. They are not one trick ponys. They are very "accurate" not sure i would want a MORE "accurate" speaker. They are not Martin Logans, so maybe could be lacking in some mids, but then again, they don't cost 3K and don't need a sub.
I'm not sure there is a "perfect speaker" But everything should be based on a price point. At the price i got them at, it's an outright steal. Even at there original price of $1600 there still a steal. I'm not sure you could find 3K speakers that will be better. But thats all going to depend on the equipment you have to run them.
Post edited by naturallight on
Comments
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Quoting Dorokusai from another post on 07/19/11:
"They really respond well to tubes and a heavy, powerful amplifier."
I agree 100%. I really enjoy the sound from my RTi12's connected to my tube gear. -
Thanks for this review on the RTi12's..just what i needed too here.I have been looking for a review on them for sometime now in a two channel set-up.The one thing i do like about a good speaker is it being accurate.Testing
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Thanks ctank. But just be aware. I'm running and old Onkyo M-504 poweramp, dual mono block, high current amp, plus a Jolida 100a with EH tubes in it. These speakers are very "accurate" but it depends on the equipment your running. If you don't have something close....just not going to sound that good.
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What kind of amp wattage is needed to really get the best out of these speakers?
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Well i would not say total wattage is the deal. It has to be high current. My Onkyo is "supposedly" only 165 watts per. But i think thats underated. But is a true high current poweramp. I would think you need 150 watts out of a true high current amp.
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Would the xpa-5 be decent enough to run these speakers?
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Well they say it's a high current amp. If your looking to use these in an HT set up..you talking to the wrong guy. You probably want a sub.
The amp should work based on the specks. Just depends on what you want the speakers to do. -
..Again thank you for the heads up..Yep i see your point..With the Jolida.naturallight wrote: »Thanks ctank. But just be aware. I'm running and old Onkyo M-504 poweramp, dual mono block, high current amp, plus a Jolida 100a with EH tubes in it. These speakers are very "accurate" but it depends on the equipment your running. If you don't have something close....just not going to sound that good.
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You may want to check if the Emotiva amps are bright b/c if they are, then they may not be a match for the RTi / RTi A series. Personally I went Parasound and am happy I did b/c they are warmer amps. Also, I'd agree that if you can find an amp that is high current (I'd say > 45 amps peak based on my exp w/ the Parasounds), the 12s will improve in clarity and bass response. You may need to dig into the manual to find that spec though..ALL BOXED UP for a while until I save up for a new place
Home Theater:
KEF Q900s / MIT Shotgun S3 / MIT CVT2 ICs | KEF Q600C | Polk FXi5 | BJC Wire | Signal / AQ ICs | Shunyata / Pangea PCs | Pioneer Elite SC 57 | Parasound NC2100 Pre | NAD M25 | Marantz SA8001 | Schiit Gungnir DAC | SB Touch
2 Channel:
Polk LSi9 (xo mods), Polk DSW MicroPro 2000 sub | NAD c375BEE | W4S DAC1 | SB Touch | Marantz SA-8001 | MIT AVt 2 | Kimber Hero / AQ / Signal ICs | Shunyata / Signal PCs -
...i would say yes it would drive them well..but i don,t have the RTi12's..i have Monitor 70,s and driving them with two mono blocks that are 200 watts each.using my H/K3490 as a pre-amp.I really like the RTi12's..and will upgrade soon too them.Would the xpa-5 be decent enough to run these speakers?Testing
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I found a nice deal on these speakers, but not sure if my AVR has enough juice to push these speakers. What are your opinions? I have a Denon 3311CI.
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..what do you think of pairing them with say a Adcom?..i was looking into a used one on the net..really big caps in them and a damping facter of 700.You may want to check if the Emotiva amps are bright b/c if they are, then they may not be a match for the RTi / RTi A series. Personally I went Parasound and am happy I did b/c they are warmer amps. Also, I'd agree that if you can find an amp that is high current (I'd say > 45 amps peak based on my exp w/ the Parasounds), the 12s will improve in clarity and bass response. You may need to dig into the manual to find that spec though..Testing
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I don't know anything about Emotiva amps. There made for HT stuff, which i have no interest in. An old Adcom 555 should work well with the 12's.
I don't know anything about the Emotiva amps, but when they offer a 5 channel 200 watt amp for the same price, i paid for a 2 channel HI-FI amp 20 years ago...kind of think theres a problem there. For HT..probably great. For 2 channel hard stereo listening..probably NOT that wonderful. You don't want a "brite " amp with these speakers. -
I currently have the M70's as fronts and I found a good deal on a pair of rti12's used for 350.00. The thing is I already have the xpa-5 and would like to upgrade my speakers to something better, I'm currently being offered the rti12's for a good price. I read somewhere here that you can probably change the EQ settings on the receiver so the rti's won't be so bright. What do you guys think?
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$350? why are you still here? run and get it FAST.
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I currently have the M70's as fronts and I found a good deal on a pair of rti12's used for 350.00. The thing is I already have the xpa-5 and would like to upgrade my speakers to something better, I'm currently being offered the rti12's for a good price. I read somewhere here that you can probably change the EQ settings on the receiver so the rti's won't be so bright. What do you guys think?
Man, get the speakers and play the amp you already have. If you're not happy, get another amp.
I don't have an amp yet but I'm working up to that for 2 channel audio also. Right now, the Pio Elite SC-35 is playing the RTi A9's with out a problem.Fronts: Polk RTi A9
Center: Polk CSI A6
Rears: Polk RTi A7
Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC-35 (140 watts x 7)
Amplifier: Adcom GFA-555 Mk.II (200 watt @ 8 ohms)
Sub: Polk DSW PRO 500 (10 inch, 200 Watt)
TV: Samsung 59 inch 3D Plasma 600 Hz PN59D7000
Sources: Samsung BD-D6700 3D Blu-ray Player, DirecTV, PS3, iPhone 4 and IPod Classic with Apple Lossless Tracks -
$350? why are you still here? run and get it FAST.
Okay, just got back got them in... dam there huge/heavy. Now to sell my 2 month old M70's and start playing with the RTI12's... -
..Dude great deal you got on them..once you sell you M70,s you should just about break even.Okay, just got back got them in... dam there huge/heavy. Now to sell my 2 month old M70's and start playing with the RTI12's...Testing
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I do find these have a top end to them that can be brighter depending on how they are driven.
For the record I use a Parasound HCA2200 with mine and have also used my Adcom 5802 and some Emo amps before.
I like the Parasound and Adcom the best as the Emo was just very bright. I still do find if I'm running my AVR (pio SC-05) that it can be bright still but if you do a correction on the upper frequency in the settings menu its not so bad.
I've also run a tubed pre on these and it did help with the highend as well.
Overall I love these speakers for HT. They do take a long time to fully get to their potential but once they do their awesome. And the finish in Cherry is just awesome looking. :biggrin: -
I think the 12's are underrated speakers. They are very "accurate" and as such may not be for everyone. For 2 channel stereo music, they are wonderful. But they are also unforgiving speakers. If you have equipment that is bright....they will sound bright. Emo amps, from what i have read, tend to be very bright. They tend to work best with old Halfler, Adcom, Onkyo (entagra,only) probably most tube amps. Your cd player will also effect the sound. If it is bright, your sound will be bright. Basically these speakers will only sound as good as the equipment you have driving them. From other speakers i have heard, the 12's will compete with 3-4K speakers. BUT herein lies the problem. The people who spend 4K on a set of speakers, have at least that much invested in the equipment to run them, if not alot more. Due to the price point of what the 12's were, and now that Polk is selling them on there ebay site, at half of what they used to be, people think they can run them with there receivers.
Just NOT the case. You need a big **** power amp, a true high current amp that is at least neutral, if not leaning to warm. A very good CD player, and preamp. Again, being at least neutral. If not, the speakers are just not going to sound that good. The cost of this type of equipment at min is $2500. Now my comments are based on 2 channel stereo reproduction only. Thats all i care about. I have no interest in HT. I don't need my ears blow off by explosions, or assaulted by Indiana Jones theme music. I'm a part time musician, all i care about is the "accurate" reproduction of music. Be it rock, or classical. To that end the 12's are by far the best bang for the buck speaker there is. I can find NO speaker that will give you what the 12's can, unless you talking about 3K and above.
AS LONG as your running the right equipment.
The 12's also need a LONG time to break-in. If you bought them new from Polk, they are as stiff as can be when you take them out of the box. No matter what equipment your running. These speakers need at least 100 hours on them before you should even consider any serious listening. That dose not mean you can put a cd on repeat, keep the volume down and walk away. They need to be PLAYED...at a decent volume for a min of 100 hours. Then they start to loosen up. Things start to flow. Probably at 200 hours..THEN you should start thinking about "critical" listening. I am not at the 200 hour mark yet, but the speakers just keep getting better all the time.
When they first come out of the box..they are bright. NOW they are NOT. They were never lacking in bass, but it is more defined now.
I can not give a realist comparison to other speakers as i have not been in a decent stereo store in a long while.
The only speakers that i did try, were Axiom M80's. Nice speakers, but not even in the same class as the 12's.
Any other comments i would have, would be from old listening, not side by side reviews, so not very relevant. -
For the folks looking for amps to power their RTi's / RTiA's, don't forget about B&K. B&K and Polk speakers always seem to pair well.
My RTi's do double duty in the great room for HT and music when company is over. I have an Emotiva in my HT system, I tried it just powering the RTi's. I really didn't care for the sound with music. I put a dedicated B&K on the RTi's and it made all the difference. The Emotiva powers the center and surrounds now. I also tried an Adcom that is now in the bedroom system on LSi's. I prefer the sound that B&K gives to the RTi's over any other SS amp I have tried.
naturallight is also right about the break in time. They might need a bit more than you were expecting and I would say the 100 hour minimum mark is pretty accurate. A couple years a ago, there was a gathering at the house. The comment I got from most of the guys is they were surprised that my RTi's didn't sound bright.
ScottWithout music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid. ..... Frank Zappa -
You may want to check if the Emotiva amps are bright b/c if they are, then they may not be a match for the RTi / RTi A series. Personally I went Parasound and am happy I did b/c they are warmer amps. Also, I'd agree that if you can find an amp that is high current (I'd say > 45 amps peak based on my exp w/ the Parasounds), the 12s will improve in clarity and bass response. You may need to dig into the manual to find that spec though..
I've got an EMO and find it to be an extremely bright amp....which is why I paired it with my LSi's, which can be a little too dry for HT at times.
Having owned the RTi's in the past, I personally wouldn't pair an EMO with the RTi's.....would sound way too aggressive on the top end.
Prior to the EMO and the LSi's, I was driving the RTi's with an older Harman Kardon amp....it was an extremely warm amp and the synergy was perfect IMO. Had to ditch the amp when I got the LSi's, as it sucked the dynamics out of the highs for HT. Musically, I loved the HK though. Much more nuanced all around than the EMO.My System Showcase!
Media Room
Paradigm Studio 60 - Paradigm CC-690 - Paradigm ADP-390 - Epik Empire - Anthem MRX300 - Emotiva XPA-5
Living-room
Paradigm MilleniaOne - Rythmik F12GSE - Onkyo TX-SR805 - Adcom 5400
Headphones
Sennheiser Momentum Over-Ear - Shure SE215 - Fiio E18 Kunlun -
I was able to find the csi5 new for 100.00 on CL. Now to sell my cs2 and m70's.....
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For the folks looking for amps to power their RTi's / RTiA's, don't forget about B&K. B&K and Polk speakers always seem to pair well.
My RTi's do double duty in the great room for HT and music when company is over. I have an Emotiva in my HT system, I tried it just powering the RTi's. I really didn't care for the sound with music. I put a dedicated B&K on the RTi's and it made all the difference. The Emotiva powers the center and surrounds now. I also tried an Adcom that is now in the bedroom system on LSi's. I prefer the sound that B&K gives to the RTi's over any other SS amp I have tried.
naturallight is also right about the break in time. They might need a bit more than you were expecting and I would say the 100 hour minimum mark is pretty accurate. A couple years a ago, there was a gathering at the house. The comment I got from most of the guys is they were surprised that my RTi's didn't sound bright.
Scott
I have heard Scott's 12s with B&K and could not believe what I was hearing.
They sounded great !
A friend was with me who had 12s and he was shocked as well.Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs -
That is why I always suggest B&K when people are looking for an Amp. I have owned several and they always sound better than the competition.
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I'm thinking of selling my emo xpa-5 for a 2 channel amp. For the B&K amps what wattage is necessary to power up the rti12's?
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I'm thinking of selling my emo xpa-5 for a 2 channel amp. For the B&K amps what wattage is necessary to power up the rti12's?
Based on their website, 225 watts from the Reference 200.2 amp is what the RTi12's should do best because that the most powerful amp per channel offered.
http://www.bkcomp.com/products/amplifiers/Fronts: Polk RTi A9
Center: Polk CSI A6
Rears: Polk RTi A7
Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC-35 (140 watts x 7)
Amplifier: Adcom GFA-555 Mk.II (200 watt @ 8 ohms)
Sub: Polk DSW PRO 500 (10 inch, 200 Watt)
TV: Samsung 59 inch 3D Plasma 600 Hz PN59D7000
Sources: Samsung BD-D6700 3D Blu-ray Player, DirecTV, PS3, iPhone 4 and IPod Classic with Apple Lossless Tracks
