Subwoofer advice needed on situation:

27dnast

Alright... new speakers are up and running... bass shakers are up and running... now looking to make sure my sub is in it's perfect place.

Very quickly, here is my set-up:

Enclosed room: 11X17 (8 ft ceiling), carpeted

Polk Audio surround set-up: Center: CSiA6, Fronts: RTiA3, Side Surrounds: FXiA4, Rear Surrounds: RTi4

I also have Aura Bass Shakers wired to seating.

So here is the question:

I have one 10-in sub, Energy S-10.3 (Frequency Response: 21-200) and two 8-inch Polk Audio PS10 subs (Frequency Response: 35-200).

My AVR (Pioneer Elite 21THX) is managing the bass via LFE out. X-over set to 80Hz and speakers set to small. I used auto calibration (MCACC) for the set-up and then used an SPL meter to fine tune the results.

The speaker array described above is new... and I have been working on setting up my sub. I had been planning on using the more powerful, more dynamic (and more expensive!) Energy s-10.3 sub all by itself. But I just can't seem to get good tight bass out of it. My placement options, because of seating and room size constraints, require that the sub be in the first 1/4 of the room where the screen and front speakers are. I've tried placing it in the left and right corners... center (under the center channel), just left of center, just right of center, and about 2 feet away from the corners (up the walls that extend down the room). The result is consistently a very over powering (loose) and boomy sound. The low in sounds good, but then it gets loose and boomy and have a very unnatural sounding boomy/loud reverb sound.

Honestly, it just seems like the speakers are doing there part... there is a gap... and then there is this loud-loose-boomy base. It's disjointed and uncomfortable to the ear.

I tried adding one of PSW10's to the mix and the result was not great.

So, I disconnected my subs and hooked up both PSW10's. They are placed along the left and right walls (about 2 ft away from the front wall that has the front speakers and display). They are facing each other, firing across the room.

The bass from this particular set-up is much tighter... much more controlled... and sounds much more woven into the sound coming from the main speakers. What is lacking is there is an audible drop in low frequencies... also, the overall lack of power is evident (but not to an annoying degree).

My x-factor is the bass shaker array... that fire off down to 20Hz. So I still get a benefit of those low frequencies. They add in that body thump.


Anyhow... looking for some opinions and impressions. Why is the far superior Energy sub producing less than optimal results? Any suggestions?

Any thoughts on using two lesser subs?

Basically... any input, insights, thoughts (outside of: buy two new better subs!) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
27dnast

rooftop59

well I am no expert at this but I will give it a try...
It sounds like you have some serious peaks in your room. Have u used the spl meter to graph the in-room response of your sub? Usually the "boominess" comes from an exaggerated peek around 45-55 hz. You might also have a null a little higher up creating a gap. If you find that that is the case, then two subs might even out the frequency response across your room. You could sell the two polks and buy another energy. But before you do that I would suggest trying one or two things. Try running your subs in stereo with the energy as the dedicated LFE. Use the speaker level inputs/outputs on the psw10s and run the speaker wire out of the avr into the sub then into the rtiA3, and then do the same for the other side. Set the speaker size to large and then run your auto cal and tweak. They may help. My other suggestion would be to use on of the psw10s to augment your center channel in the same manner. I have a small center set up like this and it greatly enhances the overall bass response in my room.
Good luck!

27dnast

Thanks for the reply. I have not graphed the in-room response of the sub... honestly that sounds a bit above my head!!!:redface:

I began to wonder, though, if that Energy sub is simply too much for my room space??? Is that possible? 11X17 might sound large, but the ceiling is only 8ft tall and the room is completely inclosed. Makes me wonder... what if I replaced the two psw10's with, say, two psw505's placed in the same configuration (firing across the front of the room at each other). Would those subs simply be too much for the space also??


What kind of ticks me off, is that the psw10's sound better.

Sounds weird to say... but what bugs me is that the Energy goes down to 21Hz and has a far more powerful amp... despite the boominess produced by the energy, it has a much - much - fuller range (it just doesn't sound as good flexing it!) and the Polks only hit down to 35Hz. But I have 2 of the Polks and only one of the Energys!

I wonder how much really exists below 35hz?

Buying another Energy isn't in my budget. They are discontinued and are going for a premium these days (about what I paid several years ago).

I'm guessing you are hinting that the fact that I have the two psw10's firing at each other is helping to eliminate the boominess through the physics of sound waves and their interactions???

I can say this... if I turn off one of the PSW10's, the bass is drastically reduced... but playing both gives a much more pleasing response.

ugh

rooftop59

I say DEFINITELY try running the subs in stereo with the energy as the dedicated LFE. I bet you will be BLOWN AWAY by the results.

As for the frequency response graph, its not very hard. If you have an spl meter, download a test-tone cd (plenty of free ones just do a search) and then just connect the energy sub only and start with 80 or 90 hz and work your way down to about 20 hz. normalize the volume for 80 db at 80hz. Then mark how high the volume is about every 5 hz. If it is 5-10 hz louder (or softer) at a certain frequency then you have a peak or a null. Two sounds help to even out those spots.

27dnast

Okay... couple of question with your suggestion.

1) You are saying I should wire my psw10's speaker level to my right and left rtia3's and then run the third sub - the energy - off of the LFE?

- Do I set all speakers to large? Or just the right and left?
- What do I set the LFE crossover (on the AVR) to? 50Hz? 80Hz?
- What do I set the crossover on the subs to?
- Where do I place those subs? Right in front of (or next to) the left and right channels?

I'm guessing that since my center channel won't be wired to a sub, the AVR X-over will probably need to remain at 80Hz? The speaker claims to go down to 45Hz... so I guess a 50Hz crossover is possible. Seems fairly complicated.

Do dedicated subwoofers have enough crispness in the low to midrange to really make this worth it?

And how will this help control the boominess coming from the Energy Sub?

2) My next question... in terms of the frequency graph. I'm assuming you meant to say that if a certain frequency is "5-10 dBs louder" that I know I have a peak. Say I do find a frequency point at which this occurs. What do I do about it?

Sorry for the bazillion questions... just trying to understand.

rooftop59

Answer to question 2) is yes, that is what I meant to say. And if you do have a peak, the only thing to do is move the sub around and try to eliminate the peak, purchase an eq, or use multiple subs to even out the response.

As for 1) Set your mains to large and crossover your center and surrounds at 80 as a starting point. Place each of the psw10s just to the side (inside or out whatever works best) of the mains. Set the crossover in the psw10s to somewhere between 60-80 hz (experimentation is your friend here) and start with the volume at about a quarter and experiment. I would first play a cd that you know really well that has decent bass in pure stereo (just the main speakers) to get the crossover and volume dialed in on the psw10s. Then plug in the energy sub via the sub preout on your receiver. Run your auto cal and tweak. I am assuming that you have a peak or dip in your room, and running all three subs should help even that out, and will give you some pretty mean bass. i am jealous...

27dnast

Out of curiosity... essentially wiring the psw10's to the L and R speakers is like making the rtia3's into a tower configuration, giving each side a subwoofer, midrange, and tweeter?

Wouldn't I want the crossover to be slightly higher?

If I set my AVR to x-over at 80Hz for my center channel and surrounds, then my avr won't send anything 80 and below to my front R and L... correct? So wouldn't I want to set the crossover on the psw10's somewhere in the 100 range??? If I set them at 80... 80 Hz isn't coming through the speaker wire to them... right??? Or, if I set the main R/L to LARGE, does that mean the 80hz crossover won't apply to those speakers??

Just a little confused about that.

You sound pretty confident about all of this. Have you ever heard this done???

rooftop59

If you set your center and surrounds as small and the crossover to 80 then the information being sent to those speakers that is below 80 hz will be rerouted to go to the sub. If you leave your mains set to large then all the information that is going to your mains will go there without being rerouted (the crossover does NOT apply to speakers set to large). And yes, you will be essentially turning your bookies into 3-way towers.

I have never tried this with my mains, but as you can see from my sig I am doing the same thing with my center, and it made a huge difference in my setup. I run my center as large, with the rest of the speakers set to small with varying crossover frequencies. It works very well.

27dnast

Okay...

This is probably not the response to my post that I was expecting! That's not a bad thing. If I have a moment tonight or tomorrow, I'll give it a whirl.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

thsmith

Learn REW (room eq wizard), free at hometheatershack.com. need a PC and sound card that does true mic in and a RS SPL meter and some time to learn.

Might try co-locating the to PA subs stacked in a corner.

codyc1ark

This is just a thought, but have you toyed with the idea of selling all three, and upgrading to a big boy? FWIW, I don't think your going to be happy with any of the combos. I don't know what that Energy is worth, but I'm sure you could get $50/each out of the PSW10's plus selling the energy, and that'd be a start for a sub budget. Start with one sub, add a second when you can afford to. I'd check the major sub companies for sales, like Epik, HSU, Outlaw, and ED to start with, if you can sell all three, I don't think a $400.00 budget is out of your reach from what it looks like you've got into your current setup if you can get rid of your current subs. Oh, and, I moved from a single PSW10 some months ago, to an Outlaw LFM-1+, and it has by FAR been the single best upgrade for HT. Good luck!

-Cody

27dnast

Here's what baffles me... the Energy s10.3 was a $500 sub. It had great reviews... has a 200W amp (max 1000w). It has a 21-200 FR.

It's not a a beater.

My concern is that anything ultra powerful is going to sound crappy in our room...

If the prior suggestion about speaker level doesn't fly... I wonder if selling off all three subs and buying 2 better subs (like a PSW505) and positioning then where I have positioned the psw10's (firing across the room at each other) would make sense???? Those are fairly affordable right now...

rooftop59

That energy s10.3 is no slouch. I owned a mirage prestige s10, which is almost identical, and I now own an HSU VTF-3 (comparable to the outlaw mentioned above) and the mirage compares quite well overall (especially in a room the size of the OP's). What it comes down to it that there is a peak or null in the room and only three things can fix that: 1) placement (which he already tried) 2) EQ or 3) multiple subs to even out the peaks. A sub that is louder and deeper will not fix the issue with the room, period. It will just be louder and deeper with the same boominess!

The other option not mentioned above is to sell the psw10s and buy a cheap used EQ to level out the room peaks with the energy sub. But I really think that using all three subs as mentioned above will help even out the response and give him a better overall experience than the dual psw505s because the energy digs a little deeper than the psw505 and is more musical. But at the end of the day it is hard to say without getting in that room or seeing a frequency graph...

27dnast

Alright... I like that logic... seems logical to me, at least. I was guessing it's partly the room...

I'll start by making a frequency graph.... have a few busy days coming up.

I'll post my results and we'll work from there.

27dnast

rooftop

Out of curiosity... do you believe that the addition of two sub wired speaker level to my front R/L speakers will help even out the primary sub because the frequencies given off (currently) between my R/L speakers and my sub aren't playing nice together (around the X-over)?

codyc1ark

rooftop59 wrote: »

That energy s10.3 is no slouch. I owned a mirage prestige s10, which is almost identical, and I now own an HSU VTF-3 (comparable to the outlaw mentioned above) and the mirage compares quite well overall (especially in a room the size of the OP's). What it comes down to it that there is a peak or null in the room and only three things can fix that: 1) placement (which he already tried) 2) EQ or 3) multiple subs to even out the peaks. A sub that is louder and deeper will not fix the issue with the room, period. It will just be louder and deeper with the same boominess!

The other option not mentioned above is to sell the psw10s and buy a cheap used EQ to level out the room peaks with the energy sub. But I really think that using all three subs as mentioned above will help even out the response and give him a better overall experience than the dual psw505s because the energy digs a little deeper than the psw505 and is more musical. But at the end of the day it is hard to say without getting in that room or seeing a frequency graph...

Great advice, his first step should be selling the PSW10s, but unless you manually eq your room, you tell me where you can get a 'cheep used EQ'. I'd like one as well! For his setup I just don't think that sub is going to cut it, a 34lb sub wouldnt convince me. The best advice I can give when looking at subs is, go big or go home. The sub will make or break an HT, and I don't see that lightweight doing the job. Please don't take this as bashing, I know that my sub is NOT the end all be all, but 27 should make a good choice, sell all three and invest in a sub that will live up to the rest of his system. :biggrin:

-Cody

PS, I wish you we're closer, the VTF was on my list, and would love to hear an A/B.

27dnast

I just did some fairly extensive research on EQ's... seems like the BFD 1124 is a really inexpensive but effective EQ unit.

Maybe EQ-ing is the real way I should end-up going??? The other option of trying to run multiple subs seems enticing... but almost like a band-aid.

Has anyone tried the BFD?