Denon 2 channel LFE+MAIN

Tbone289

When listening to stereo music, I often set my Denon AVR's 2-channel setup as "Large" and LFE+MAIN. The midbass seems thin if use the 80Hz crossover as I do with 5.1, and combining LFE+MAIN fortifies the midbass I'm lacking.

My question is, if I'm using the 2-channel LFE+MAIN setting, at what frequency does the receiver low-pass the LFE? Would the "LPF for LFE" setting in the Speaker Setup > Bass Setting menu control the LPF for "mains" bass sent to the sub in 2-ch mode, or is this setting just for ".1" effects content?

I would like to be able to adjust low pass for the "mains" bass that is being sent to the sub in the Large/LFE+MAIN setting.

Erik Tracy

Tbone289 wrote: »

When listening to stereo music, I often set my Denon AVR's 2-channel setup as "Large" and LFE+MAIN. The midbass seems thin if use the 80Hz crossover as I do with 5.1, and combining LFE+MAIN fortifies the midbass I'm lacking.

My question is, if I'm using the 2-channel LFE+MAIN setting, at what frequency does the receiver low-pass the LFE? Would the "LPF for LFE" setting in the Speaker Setup > Bass Setting menu control the LPF for "mains" bass sent to the sub in 2-ch mode, or is this setting just for ".1" effects content?

I would like to be able to adjust low pass for the "mains" bass that is being sent to the sub in the Large/LFE+MAIN setting.

Not sure if the Denon will do what you want it to do - when mains are set to Large, they get it all w/ no low pass...well that is the way my AVR behaves.

Tbone289

With the Denon, if you set the mains to "Large" and LFE+MAIN, the mains will receive the full frequency spectrum, and bass from the main channels will also be sent to the sub (LFE) simultaneously. I'm just trying to tweak the frequency range that is passed to the sub in this setting, similar to using the LPF dial on the back of the sub when using a filtered input.

B Run

I think it's 120hz and lower to the sub, full range for the towers.

Tbone289

It sure would be nice if the (frustrating) manual stated that. I'm going to tweak the "LPF for LFE" setting in the menu and give it a listen to see if it affects 2-channel mode.

deronb1

With my Denon (AVR-391) you can set the front freq from 40hz to 250hz and the bass setting from the main menu from 80hz to 250hz.

I dont know speakers you are using, but mine go below 40hz so I set the front to large and 40hz and the bass setting to LFE+Main and the freq to 100hz. Seems to work the best for my 2 channel stereo listening.

BWilberg266

I recommend checking out Batpig's Denon Guide, here's what I found on his site as he will do a better job of explaining than I can:

The first thing to understand is that the LFE setting in the crossover menu is NOT a crossover!! For some reason, receiver manufacturers stuck this option in the crossover menu, and it is a huge source of confusion for many users.

The "LFE" setting, however, is not a crossover, it is simply a low-pass filter (LPF) on the LFE channel of a surround mix. All it does is put an upper-limit on the LFE channel, and it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the crossovers and "bass management" taking place in the receiver.

It is important to understand that the “LFE” is not the same thing as the “bass” channel. Many people are concerned that they will “lose” bass if there is a mismatch between the LFE setting and the crossovers. However, again, this LFE setting has absolutely nothing to do with the redirected bass from the other speakers. The LFE channel is a totally separate channel and contains “supplementary” bass effects.

That being said, I feel like there was still a crossover level for the fronts even if you have them set to large, specifically for situations like you are talking about. So if you have the fronts set to large, with the sub set for Mains+LFE, and the crossover at 80hz - your sub will only receive the signal of 80 Hz and below from your front speakers when in stereo mode.

In his words:

Mains - Large
Sub - LFE+Mains
In this setup, the mains run full-range, the sub gets the LFE channel. In this arrangement the frequencies below the mains crossover setting are sent the mains AND the sub. This is the so-called "double bass."

If you want to check out his setup guide go to http://batpigworld.com/setup.html

Tbone289

deronb1 wrote: »

With my Denon (AVR-391) you can set the front freq from 40hz to 250hz and the bass setting from the main menu from 80hz to 250hz.

I dont know speakers you are using, but mine go below 40hz so I set the front to large and 40hz and the bass setting to LFE+Main and the freq to 100hz. Seems to work the best for my 2 channel stereo listening.

Thanks for your comments. The speakers I'm using are in my signature. (RT7) The -3db lower cutoff for the RT7 is 49Hz but, ideally, the crossover should be set ~1 octave higher than the -3db lower cutoff, so that puts me in the 80-100Hz range. I have the crossover set to 80Hz for multichannel but, as I stated, I feel the midbass is a bit "thin" with some stereo recordings. Audyssey sets me to "large" for the RT7 as mains, which obviously is not the best choice.

Bwilberg266 wrote:

If I remember correctly the LPF for LFE only controls what the upper cutoff for the information that is being sent to the subwoofer is. So it takes the ".1" track + whatever you have comming from the crossover setting on the rest of your speakers and makes sure there is no content above that LPF for LFE Hz setting that goes to the sub.

Thanks Will. I am hoping this is the case, and will test that theory tonight. I know that's pretty much how it works with multichannel, but am concerned that may not be the case with stereo, as I was thinking it applied to the ".1" or "effects" only. My understanding is that it's just the upper threshold for the effects track only, and the crossover determines the upper threshold for the bass coming from the mains. There is no "LPF for LFE" setting in the 2-channel specific menu, which somewhat supports that theory. I wish there was, because 120Hz is the ideal setting for multichannel due to the DTS/DD effects mastering guidelines, and I would want to lower that value for stereo to, say, 90Hz from the mains. I don't really want to switch the setting back-and-forth depending on source.

Bwilberg266 wrote:

That being said, I feel like there was still a crossover level for the fronts even if you have them set to large

I'm not aware of one, other than the "LPF for LFE" setting. Setting a channel to "large" eliminates a true crossover setting, AFAIK. This occurs in the Speaker Settings menu and the 2-channel specific menu.

BWilberg266

Setting the speakers to large designates that speaker to receive the full spectrum of sound, however when you have Main+LFE enabled for the sub and your speakers set to large you will receive double bass for any signal below the set crossover point for that speaker that is set to large. From my experience from this receiver I know that this is indeed the case as my wife wanted more bass when listening to her music so I had to make sure that the "double bass" was in place. (Boy do I love my wife)

From page 27 of the Denon "Handbook From Hell" under the Crossover Frequency heading:

When LFE+Main" is selected, speakers (crossovers) can be set regardless of the speaker size setting.

and on page 26 it states:

LPF for LFE: Sets the upper limit of the low frequency signals out from the subwoofer.

The LPF for LFE does not change no matter the source or content from what I gather which is why there is only one main setting for it under bass setting.

They should really have labeled it "LPF for Sub Out" rather than LFE which leads you to believe that it only regulates the LFE track on a ".1" source.

I hope this helps alleviate your Denon Subwoofer Settings headache. I want to make sure you enjoy that thing as much as I did!

Tbone289

Hey, no worries there. I love the thing. I've tweaked the hell out of it, and this is the very last thing I'm trying to get just "perfect"!

I will definitely try the LPF for LFE for the 2-channel setting, and see if it indeed does apply to the bass from the mains. According to your quote above, it certainly should.

I think some of the confusion we were having above was due to semantics. When you said, "That being said, I feel like there was still a crossover level for the fronts even if you have them set to large" above, I didn't realize you were actually talking about the low pass filter, not actually a crossover.

Thanks again!

Tbone289

OK. I should have consulted Batpig earlier. It appears that LPF for LFE only affects the LFE ".1" track. See below.

Source: BATPIG'S "DENON-TO-ENGLISH DICTIONARY" SETUP GUIDE AND FAQ

In newer models you will also find an "LPF for LFE" setting here. This setting only determines the upper limit (low pass filter) for the LFE channel in multichannel content with a "point 1" track (e.g. 5.1 or 7.1) . It is not a crossover and it does not affect any of your speakers' bass management. It also is NOT a general "subwoofer setting". It ONLY affects the LFE track, period. Set it to 120Hz (this is the actual specified upper limit for LFE material) and forget about it.

So, according to this, there is no sub LPF setting for LFE+MAIN when listening to a 2-channel source.

deronb1

In the manual, Denon states that "Large" should be set for any speaker that can produce low freqs. It doesn't state how low, however. The size of the speaker is not important, it's the freqs that it can produce.

The manual goes on to say "always set the fronts to 80hz". I think they are assuming that the sub is always going to be used. I like to listen to my mains in stereo quite often without having to go in and change the crossover settings.

There is going to be overlap either way. I just don't want to cut my mains short for some stupid setting. Keeping it on 120hz will not change a thing except "double" your bass for an octave.

If Denon believes the 40hz overlap is the way to go then fine. They are a lot smater than me. I just dont believe in setting speakers that are capable of producing lower freqs to a higher freq.

Tbone289

deronb1 wrote: »

There is going to be overlap either way. I just don't want to cut my mains short for some stupid setting. Keeping it on 120hz will not change a thing except "double" your bass for an octave.

Well, that depends on your setup. It won't double any bass unless you're set to "large" and using LFE+MAIN. If your mains are set to "small", it will crossover at the frequency you set, and there will be no "doubling".

deronb1 wrote: »

I like to listen to my mains in stereo quite often without having to go in and change the crossover settings.

There are crossover settings on my Denon AVR for stereo only, separate from the multichannel arrangement. You may want to see if yours has 2-channel only settings also. You can easily set the subwoofer off here and play only the mains if you like, just in stereo.

Keep in mind that, even if your mains are rated to a low frequency, e.g. 30-40Hz, the frequency response will not be FLAT to 30-40Hz--there will be a frequency rolloff that naturally begins at a higher frequency. Your sub and it's internal amp are much more efficient at producing a 40Hz signal, so you will end up with a much flatter response with the crossover set higher than where the frequency begins rolling off of your mains.

For example, my RT7s are rated to 35Hz by Polk. However, they are at -3db from flat at 49Hz, and probably aren't approaching a "flat" response until about 60-80Hz. Therefore, I set my crossover at 80Hz.

Why?

1. If I were to set the crossover to a lower frequency, by mains would be struggling to produce the lower, non-directional frequencies, and those frequencies would be attenuated due to the lower frequency rolloff of the RT7's driver.

2. My subwoofer can reproduce frequencies in the 20-80Hz range MUCH more efficiently than even floorstanding mains, larger than my RT7's, can. This allows for cleaner bass, and cleaner midrange from the mains because the mains aren't struggling to inefficiently reproduce the bass notes in the range of 20Hz-80Hz.

BWilberg266

deronb1 wrote: »

In the manual, Denon states that "Large" should be set for any speaker that can produce low freqs. It doesn't state how low, however. The size of the speaker is not important, it's the freqs that it can produce.

The manual goes on to say "always set the fronts to 80hz". I think they are assuming that the sub is always going to be used. I like to listen to my mains in stereo quite often without having to go in and change the crossover settings.

There is going to be overlap either way. I just don't want to cut my mains short for some stupid setting. Keeping it on 120hz will not change a thing except "double" your bass for an octave.

If Denon believes the 40hz overlap is the way to go then fine. They are a lot smater than me. I just dont believe in setting speakers that are capable of producing lower freqs to a higher freq.

There is a specific setting for your fronts in stereo/direct mode that is separate from any multi-channel settings so there should be no need to constantly switch things.

The 120hz LPF is the high frequency limiter that cuts off any frequency above that from going to the sub. Setting your speaker crossover at 80 does not create a "window" of 80-120 that has double bass. It would actually be the opposite, with nothing going to your sub between the 80hz-120hz range. A crossover cuts off any frequencies below it which means that when running a stereo signal the sub will receive any signals below 80hz as that is the crossover cutoff from going to the fronts.

In a stereo situation (if you have your fronts set to small) your fronts will play down to 80hz, the sub will play from 80hz and below, and the LPF will not come into play because the sub will not be receiving any information above 120hz. If you have your fronts set to large, your sub is set for LFE+Main, and your crossover is set for 80hz, then the speakers will play the full range and the sub will play anything from 80hz down thus creating a double bass window of 80hz and below.

In a multi channel setting with the fronts set to small, a crossover of 80, and an LPF of 120 the sub would play anything from 80hz and below that is redirected from the speakers, and would play any LFE information below 120hz that is coming in from the ".1"

The suggestion of a 80hz crossover is one that comes from THX for multi channel listening for the most part. And as most speakers can't truly handle the full range asking the receiver to process the full range for the fronts simply takes up extra wattage for running the full range when the speaker isn't truly capable of even reproducing those frequencies anyway. So their suggestion is set all speakers to small and leave them at 80hz as the sub can handle the low frequencies better anyway. Also they suggest setting the LFE at 120. The result of this is that the sub will receive all information from 80hz and below that is redirected from going to the speakers and it will also play the LFE track (or ".1) with frequencies of 120hz or below.

I hope I said all of that clearly.

It really comes down to personal taste though. If it sounds good to you, then stick with what you've got.

BWilberg266

Tbone289 wrote: »

Well, that depends on your setup. It won't double any bass unless you're set to "large" and using LFE+MAIN. If your mains are set to "small", it will crossover at the frequency you set, and there will be no "doubling".

Keep in mind that, even if your mains are rated to a low frequency, e.g. 30-40Hz, the frequency response will not be FLAT to 30-40Hz--there will be a frequency rolloff that naturally begins at a higher frequency. Your sub and it's internal amp are much more efficient at producing a 40Hz signal, so you will end up with a much flatter response with the crossover set higher than where the frequency begins rolling off of your mains.

For example, my RT7s are rated to 35Hz by Polk. However, they are at -3db from flat at 49Hz, and probably aren't approaching a "flat" response until about 60-80Hz. Therefore, I set my crossover at 80Hz.

Why?

1. If I were to set the crossover to a lower frequency, by mains would be struggling to produce the lower, non-directional frequencies, and those frequencies would be attenuated due to the lower frequency rolloff of the RT7's driver.

2. My subwoofer can reproduce frequencies in the 20-80Hz range MUCH more efficiently than even floorstanding mains, larger than my RT7's, can. This allows for cleaner bass, and cleaner midrange from the mains because the mains aren't struggling to inefficiently reproduce the bass notes in the range of 20Hz-80Hz.

Didn't see your post until after I had posted mine...well said!

Tbone289

BWilberg266 wrote: »

Didn't see your post until after I had posted mine...well said!

Indeed. Between the two of us, I think we covered all the bases.

ROHfan

Tbone289 wrote: »

Indeed. Between the two of us, I think we covered all the bases.

You mean you covered all the basses! :cool:

Tbone289

ROHfan wrote: »

You mean you covered all the basses! :cool:

:rolleyes:

:biggrin:

BWilberg266

ROHfan wrote: »

You mean you covered all the basses! :cool:

Oh audio related puns...well played

Tbone289

just a quick update...

I did some testing, and found that, indeed, the "LPF for LFE" has no effect on what is passed to the subwoofer when in two channel, "LFE + MAIN" mode. So, I have no idea where the low pass is set for that mode, but it is set too high for use with my RT7s, resulting in overpowering, muddy mid-bass.

I did find a solution to my lack of mid-bass, but it was not through any AVR setting. One day last week I was listening to some tunes and started to drift off, so I reclined the chair that sits in the sweet spot.....and I quickly realized that the midbass was much better with my ears 3-4" lower than where they usually are. My speaker stands are a bit too short, and the tweeters sit about 1-2" below my ears normally. So, rather than buy new stands, I shimmed the speakers to angle back about 10 degrees or so, and that appears to have fixed the problem!

Now I'm running 2-ch set as "small", with the crossover at 60Hz. The crossover setting is a bit of a compromise since I'm using the somewhat sloppy PSW-505. 80Hz would be ideal, and is the setting I use for HT, but letting the RT7s handle down to 60Hz gives me much better punch and detail for the bass notes. Some day I will have to upgrade to a more musical subwoofer.

BWilberg266

While it wasn't as simple as changing a setting on the AVR I'm glad to hear that you were able to find a solution!

I just added a Velodyne VSX-11 to tighten up my midbass a bit and let the A2-300 focus on the lowest end of the bass spectrum.

Tbone289

That VSX-11 looks like a nice little unit for the price. How do you have that set up? Are you blending the Velodyne with your mains and only hooking up the ED as LFE?

EndersShadow

Tbone289 wrote: »

That VSX-11 looks like a nice little unit for the price. How do you have that set up? Are you blending the Velodyne with your mains and only hooking up the ED as LFE?

I think he's running both the subs as subs and using Audysee XT32 to EQ both subs....but I could be wrong

BWilberg266

Enders is exactly right...God bless the XT32

Tbone289

Ah yes, I just saw your post in the other thread Will. Good stuff, that XT32. Hey, whenever you sell that 3008 lemme know. I'll be ready to move up from the 1910 by then. :biggrin:

Just be sure to dust it off if you decide to take pictures of it, or others might have a conniption.

BWilberg266

You'll be the first on my list if/when I let it go. And considering I got it for a steal myself, it's only fair that I pass the savings along when I let it go.

I love having my fronts bridged with this thing. It gives the music some nice headroom, and streaming FLAC files from my networked PC in the other room is just wonderful. Nothings quite like sitting back with your eyes closed just enjoying the music. Not nearly enough people do that anymore today.

Tbone289

BWilberg266 wrote: »

Nothings quite like sitting back with your eyes closed just enjoying the music. Not nearly enough people do that anymore today.

Agreed! Had I not been doing that, I might never have figured out my midbass/placement problems! I stream FLAC all over the house too, BTW, but of course I have to have a laptop attached w/HDMI to the 1910. Other than ripping a CD when I buy one, I hope to never be bothered with them again. I just wish more music was available for purchase as FLAC.

BWilberg266

Have you checked out HDtracks.com?

They have a pretty impressive selection of FLAC music

Tbone289

BWilberg266 wrote: »

Have you checked out HDtracks.com?

They have a pretty impressive selection of FLAC music

Yeah, but I still want more. :biggrin:

BWilberg266

Spoken like a truly addicted man...I like it

GTB

deronb1 wrote: »

With my Denon (AVR-391) you can set the front freq from 40hz to 250hz and the bass setting from the main menu from 80hz to 250hz.

I dont know speakers you are using, but mine go below 40hz so I set the front to large and 40hz and the bass setting to LFE+Main and the freq to 100hz. Seems to work the best for my 2 channel stereo listening.

I can do the same with my 790. Batpig is the way to go if you can't find it by searching the manual or in the menus.