Above ground pools?

Ron-P

What brand is it Joe?

maximillian

Just bought and installed my 21' x 52" above ground this past month. There are lots of hidden costs. I bought it from Namco for $3K total. Installation was $1.6K since my lawn slopes and they had to dig 36" on one side. I also bought the extra padding that they recommend to protect the liner. Pool installation permit $50. There will be other permits for the rest of the work too. 10,000 gallons of water was $325. I still have to do the electrical work for the pump (run an underground cable from the garage). The electricity cost isn't going to be cheap since it is a 10 amp, 125V motor. I have 2 retaining walls to make. One of them so far cost me about $250 in bricks. The other one should be cheaper since it will eventually be hidden under the deck. Yes, wife wants a deck. That will be several thousands of dollars. Then there is the cost of chemicals.

I have to check chemical levels every week and add as needed. So it looks like I have become a slave to this thing. I really preferred not to get a pool and use the public swimming holes. But wife and kids nagged me into submission. They turned down a Disney cruise idea so they could have a pool. Happy wife, happy life.

disneyjoe7

Ron, About the V thing... Have you considered putting down a plastic sheet and then placing sand over it to level it under pool liner?

steveinaz

My pool has a Salt Water Chlorine Generator (SWCG). It is extremely convenient as I don't need anyone to babysit the pool when we're gone. Not to mention the benefits of softer water, easier on the eyes, no swim suit fading, etc. I currently have a QuikChlor, but it will be replaced this winter with a Pentair system. You still need to stay on top of your pools chemistry, but I'll never have a traditional chlorine pool again.

Ron was thinking fairly modest (I gather), so I didn't even mention it. Salt systems aren't cheap. The good news is, you can add salt to any pool, just be careful of certain coping materials as they can be sensitive to salt.

Ron-P

As an update. I re-ordered up the 12x30 pool. My neighbor came over with his BobCat and stripped away about 80% of my lawn, I'll hand dig the rest, level it and then hopefully get the pool up and running tomorrow.

Sherardp

Ron-P wrote: »

As an update. I re-ordered up the 12x30 pool. My neighbor came over with his BobCat and stripped away about 80% of my lawn, I'll hand dig the rest, level it and then hopefully get the pool up and running tomorrow.

Congrats bro. Now you can follow up on the other thread " Good Pool Music", and have everything set to go once you get it installed. As if you couldn't tell, I'm super jealous.

Perhaps I'll take some pics of me in the kiddie pool eating a good dog, listening to my Atrium 60's out front. Let us know how you like it bro. Congrats and enjoy it.

steveinaz

Enjoy buddy---my pool was one thing that I was certain I woud have buyers regret about---I was WRONG.

Ron-P

Jstas wrote: »

As far as your concrete, if you think the grass lumps will be hard, concrete will be worse. But since you keep bringing up weight, 2115 gallons at 8.34 pounds per gallon is roughly 17,639 pounds of weight. Even if it's just a small section of the pool on the concrete, the level is quite high.

Most normal driveways won't support that weight long-term, without cracking let alone a backyard patio. Just a thought.

So, here's what I have figured. My pool is 12' x 30" which hold 1,700 gallons, multiply that times 8.34 gives me a total weight of 14,178 lbs. Now, the total SF of my pool is 117, divide that into the 14,178 gives me 121.17 lbs over a SF area. Is this correct? If so, there should be no issues at all with this thing sitting on my concrete.

jgido759

Hey Ron, nobody seems to have mentioned this, but you might need to check with your town as to what permits, if any, are needed BEFORE you install your pool.

Here in NJ, I needed a $30 permit just to find out weather or not I could put the pool in my yard (needed a hand drawing as to the location within the backyard). Local code needed it to be at least 15' from any property line and 20' from the house.

Then, I had to pull a construction permit ($60) and an electrical permit (again, another $60). Electrical code is pretty strick in that everything had to be bonded together (filter, WATER, anything metal within so many feet of the pool) including burying a 8AWG bare copper wire completely around the pool and touching the structure every other metal post.

Just something else to consider.

Ron-P

No permit required as long as do not exceed 5,000 gallons.

jgido759

Nice. Here in NJ, it's anything over 24" deep.

steveinaz

Here in Cochise county you have to meet these:

-minimum 5 foot non-climbable wall, or fence around the pool min 5ft in height, no more than 4" spacing between bars and a spring loaded self-closing gate with lock 4'6" off the ground. (the minmum 5ft must be from the outside side of the wall/fence)

For example, most houses here have cinder block walls around the back yard; these are fine to use as your "barrier" as long as the walls are at least 5ft high, have no "foot-holds" and all gates entering the yard must meet the height requirement, and the bars on your gate must be less than 4" spaced---or you can have smooth metal mesh placed on the gate. The gate must also open "out" and be self-closing/latching. The latch must be at least 4ft 6" off the ground. They figure it's much harder for a little one to pull a gate open--then to push it open--makes sense to me.

-pool alarms on all doors with direct access to the pool area (if using external wall as your barrier)

-pool deep end must have a ladder or swim-out

-pool edge can be no closer than 4ft from any property line

Inspection must pass before they will plaster the pool. The inspection is FREE, and done by the city.

Ron-P

Now, how about this saltwater kit for $169? Would this be money better spent vr buying chemicals and such?

http://www.amazon.com/Intex-Krystal-Clear-Saltwater-System/dp/B002V1H11C/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1310149995&sr=8-2

jgido759

steveinaz wrote: »

The gate must also open "out" and be self-closing/latching.

Man, did I argue with my inspector about this! We have a self closing/latching gate w/lock on the ladder for the above ground pool so we really didn't need one on the yard fence. But, I did already have a self closing/latching gate on my 6' stockade fence that opened IN! The inspector wanted me to change it and I told him that I have 2 large dogs in the yard. Hence, if the gate opened OUT and the dogs jumped against the latch (which they do), the gate would open and they would be free to roam the neighborhood. :eek::biggrin:

steveinaz

Ron,
For that price, I'd be a little weary about it. I don't know that unit personally though. Keep in mind, this only takes care of sanitizing (providing chlorine gas). You'll need a salinty test kit to properly adjust your salt levels. I've tried the salinity level strips---they are very difficult to read, I'd recommend a drop kit. I buy 40lb bags of salt from the pool store, and they're like $8 a bag---cheap.

43lbs of salt would net 3000ppm in a 1700 gallon pool, just for reference. I'm not sure what ppm of salt that system requires.

SWCG (Salt Water Chlorine Generators) generally run on between 2700-3600ppm, about 1/10th the salinity of the ocean. Consider, the human eye's salinity is about 9600ppm--this is why salt water pools are easier on the eyes.

Lemme do some research on it...stay tuned...

Ron-P

Thanks Steve.

I found a complete chemical start up kit for for $20. I think I'll just run that this summer an then if the pool work out well I'll invest in a salt water kit next year.

steveinaz

DO NOT get the one with the copper algaecide enhancement---BAD NEWS. Properly maintained pools do not need this crap. It will give you fits, and likely turn any blondes in your familty to Greens. Seriously, Stay away from copper du-hickies, BROMINE, etc, etc. All gimmicks, that everyone ends up hating. Trust me on this, there must be 40 threads in the poolforum of people asking hot to convert their bromine/copper pool to chlorine.

steveinaz

Ron-P wrote: »

Thanks Steve.

I found a complete chemical start up kit for for $20. I think I'll just run that this summer an then if the pool work out well I'll invest in a salt water kit next year.

I think that's a good idea, for a pool that small. Maintaining it will be easy. Buddy all you need is chlorine and possibly (likely) pH up or down type chems to start. Of course you'll need some stabilizer too, or your chlorine will pretty much burn up everyday in this summer heat. You'll see what I mean when you take your readings. Start with about 50ppm on your stabilizer.

2 pointers:

1. Chlorinate at night (it'll last longer) this also allows the chlorine to expend it's energy killing germs instead of fighting sunlight.

2. If you get tired of putting chlorine in each day, up the dose. Chlorine disappates quickly; so instead of maybe throwing 2 cups in everyday (example only) try 3 cups every other day---of course checking with your test kit that you're staying between 2-5ppm. Chlorine levels of 12ppm are perfectly safe to swim in, so need to panic if you over do it a bit. Chlorine is one chemical that it's ok to over do it (or err on the side of too much). It's burns off pretty quick.

FYI--If your using typical Clorox (6%) bleach, it looks like 14ounces nets you 4ppm of FC in a 1700 gal pool. What the heck, lets call it 2 cups.---IGNORE this if you're using powdered chlorine, and use the pool calculator link instead.

FUN POOL TIP: Ever smell that strong chlorine smell at a public pool? That's a reaction causing that smell due to..........you guessed it, urine and sweat. That's why well maintained pools don't have this smell.

steveinaz

..oh, use 11oz of HTH coinditioner/stabilizer to net you 50ppm in 1,700 gals. Stabilizer (CYA) takes a long time to dissolve, so you might want to pre-mix it in a bucket of pool water first.

Jstas

Ron-P wrote: »

So, here's what I have figured. My pool is 12' x 30" which hold 1,700 gallons, multiply that times 8.34 gives me a total weight of 14,178 lbs. Now, the total SF of my pool is 117, divide that into the 14,178 gives me 121.17 lbs over a SF area. Is this correct? If so, there should be no issues at all with this thing sitting on my concrete.

I don't think that's exactly how it equates. But it's not the pool on the concrete that is so much of an issue but rather the pool being on two dissimilar surfaces, one drastically softer than the other.

Also, weight ratings of concrete aren't just about how much steel is in them and what the quality/mix of materials is. The footing/base they are poured on matters too. My dad had their drive replaced many years ago now with 6,000 pound concrete. Typical driveways are around 3,000-4,000. His truck is pretty big and heavy and he got the heavier driveway so that the truck being parked on it didn't crack or cause the slabs to pitch and become uneven it like the old one.

When they poured it, they excavated 2 feet down, repacked an aggregate and then built up the base like they would a city street with various layers of stone and other aggregate. Then they poured the concrete. 20 years later and it still looks new. They did a great job with it!

Patios and such are rarely over a 2,000 pound weight rating and typically closer to a 1,000 pound rating. All concrete has rebar in it when you get over a certain size slab. It's not necessarily for weight capacity and strength but to keep the slab from shrinking during curing and to minimize cracking from thermal cycles. Many patios are free-formed with nothing more than a packed dirt base. Heavy weights on them can make them shift and tilt. The problem with that is when the concrete becomes elevated higher on one side than the other, the higher side loses it's support. Concrete itself is very brittle and without something for it to sit on, it can actually collapse under it's own weight. It may hold up a bunch of stuff and be durable as all get out but it has low shear strength. So when it's up in the air with no underlying support, cracks form when it's trying to tear itself apart. Put weight on the elevated end and it's done for.

Unless of course you're using structural stuff but that would be one hell of an expensive patio.

With your pool sitting on the end and for all intents and purposes, hanging over the edge, you have a good chance of having the slab cantilever up. It may not even be noticeable to you until the base underneath washes away in a bad rainstorm or you put some weight on it like a family BBQ. The next time you notice it, you'll have a crack. That crack lets water in and begins undermining the base support for the whole slab. Eventually it'll weaken and degrade and may even start to crumble. It's an expensive fix whether you bust it up and replace it or just bust it up and level it.

I don't want to see that happen to you. That's where my concern is coming from.

inspiredsports

I don't know if this was already addressed, but I don't believe your concrete will properly support the pool.

5 years ago I placed my eight person hot tub that holds 500 gallons (approx. 4,000# plus tub weight) on a 12'X12' segment of my fully settled and heavily re-bar/mesh reinforced 24X36' patio.

Within a year the 12X12 segment holding the hot tub was at least a half inch lower than the other 5 segments from the weight of the tub.

steveinaz

I think we had to have a 4000psi (whatever that means) concrete slab poured for our Coleman spa years ago. It was pretty big.

I'm no engineer by any stretch, but I believe the structural integrity of the above ground pools relies heavily on even distribution of the water (load) to keep everything standing plumb. I think spanning across two different surfaces will upset this integrity---but I'm spit-balling. Not to mention it will likely make keeping your liner in place as you fill a real pain in the butt.

tonyb

I brought up my concerns on the weight thing with his patio early on. Here in the midwest, a standard patio is 6 inches thick. Your neck of the woods may vary. I've also seen guys looking to save a buck and put 4 inches in....with no rebar. Then stick a hot tub on it only to just fall apart after one season.
All were saying Ron, is your taking a risk, maybe you'll be ok, who knows. But if your wrong, the cost of a new patio far exceeds what the pool will cost you. Not to mention how pissed the wife would be.

Ron-P

steveinaz wrote: »

DO NOT get the one with the copper algaecide enhancement---BAD NEWS. Properly maintained pools do not need this crap. It will give you fits, and likely turn any blondes in your familty to Greens. Seriously, Stay away from copper du-hickies, BROMINE, etc, etc. All gimmicks, that everyone ends up hating. Trust me on this, there must be 40 threads in the poolforum of people asking hot to convert their bromine/copper pool to chlorine.

Here's the one I got Steve, it says non-metalic algaecide. Let me know if this will work, just to get me started and get familiar with the chemicals.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002WKQ1B8

Ron-P

Jstas wrote: »

I don't want to see that happen to you. That's where my concern is coming from.

Thanks. Here's the thing, my concrete patio is already a mess, it has some very bad cracks in it thanks to some very big palms that used to be there. And as you know, palm roots do not grow down, but out. So they lifted my slab in several places. Also, I cut two 3'x3' holes in it too add some foliage to. So, if my concrete slab cracks under the weight of the pool, it's no big deal.

It's all going to get removed eventually and replaced with a wood type deck down the road.

I could try to move the pool back into the yard deeper but that means cutting down some of my tropical plants. I'd rather risk the pool damaging the patio than taking out my plants.

steveinaz

The shock can be used for sanitizing (it's just chlorine). I wouldn't bother with any of the other stuff--algaecide/clearifier/stain away, as you don't have any of these problems. Really the chemicals you need are:

Chlorine
Muratic acid or Soda ash (for adjusting pH -/+)
CYA-Stabilizer/conditioner

steveinaz

Here's your "start-up"

Go to Walmart, buy:
Chlorine
HTH stabilizer

Fill pool and add:
Chlorine (how much you use depends on which product you buy)
11oz of the HTH (this will protect your chlorine)
Check your pH

SWIM!

When you get out of the water, if your cold---build a fire with those test strips; because that's about the only purpose they serve. It's impossible to know how much chemicals to add when strips don't tell you "ppm" (parts per million). Only a good drop test will tell you specific measurements.

steveinaz

Go here:

http://www.poolsolutions.com/index.html

steveinaz

This is from the Poolforum, I did not write this:
________________________________________________

OK, the BEST and fastest way to get up to speed is to go to the sister site, PoolSolutions.com and start reading. Click on "Site Map" and go to the section marked "Info From Pool Solutions" and read everything there. No joke. It's very interesting and informative and will give you a wonderful foundation.

All the chemicals and shorthand gets confusing. The idea is to keep your pool sanitary by killing all the algae, germs and viruses in it, and to keep its chemical level not too acid and not too alkaline.

These 2 things, Chlorine(sanitation) and pH are the keys to pool care. Everything else is to keep them correct.

pH is from high school chemistry--1 is super-acid (think pure hydrochloric or sulfuric acid). 14 is super-alkalkine (think pure lye). 7 is neutral. We want just slightly higher than neutral--7.3-7.8

We lower pH if it's too high with acid--Muriatic Acid (Hydrochloric Acid) or Dry Acid (a powder). You can get Muriatic Acid at most hardware stores.

We raise pH if it's too low with ordinary 20 Mule Team Borax which you can find in a green box in the laundry aisle at Walmart. You can use Soda Ash as well (sodium carbonate -- called Washing Soda) but it will raise both PH AND alk. If you only want to raise the PH, use Borax.

Chlorine is our sanitizer. It kills algae, bugs, germs, viruses and is the ONLY sanitizer you should use for fecal matter. It also gets rid of excess suntan lotion, and other stuff. Our BEST way to add chlorine is with good, old LAUNDRY BLEACH! Yup, plain, unscented bleach is the best.

We measure chlorine in our test kits. Sometimes they test "chlorine". This is actually Total Chlorine--the TC you asked about. Our better test kits test for Free Chlorine (FC) which is the stuff that does all those good things. The better tests also test for Combined Chlorine or Combined Chloramines--CC. This is the used-up chlorine that smells like disinfectant and irritates eyes. Its presence means you are metaboliziing something.

TC = FC + CC. This is always. If you know 2 of the 3, you know the third. Test strips measure TC and FC, but not CC. Sometimes the TC is lower than the FC--that means the strip is no good. Generally, a good FC is 3ppm (parts per million). A good CC is 0, and a good TC is also 3ppm. But, how much chlorine your pool needs depends on what your CYA level is. See the sticky called "Best Guess CYA Chart" in the "Using Chlorine and Chlorinating Chemicals" section of the forum for the correlation between chlorine and CYA. If you don't use the appropriate amount of chlorine based on your cya level, you're going to have algae problems.

Other tests are Total Alkalinity (TA or T/A), Stabilizer (CYA or Cyanuric Acid or Conditioner), and Calcium Hardness--Ca or CH.

There are lots of other tests--TDS, SI, Acid Demand, Base Demand and they all sound important. They aren't and, unless something REALLY strange happens, you never, EVER have to think about them.

Of the three TA, CYA, and Ca, these are important.
TA, Total Alkalinity, is a measure of how well your water can keep from changing its pH. We like to see this be between 80 and 125 ppm. HOWEVER, in a vinyl pool it doesn't matter if it goes to 180...only past 200ppm does it become a problem. We raise TA with Baking Soda--good old Arm&Hammer. Lowering it is a pain in the patoot.

CYA is stabilizer. You need this to keep your chlorine from breaking down too fast and leaving you with none. You have to buy this at the pool store. Aim for 30-50ppm Add less than you think you need because the ONLY way to lower it is dilute it by draining off water.

Calcium Hardness is virtually irrelevant for a vinyl pool. But pool store guys will swear on their saintly mother's life that you need it for your vinyl pool. It's simply not true and is a waste of money. Calcium in the water prevents the water from sucking calcium out of concrete, plaster, or tile walls. It is not an issue in vinyl pool. It only matters to you if gets EXTREMELY high--500ppm.

That's about it: Chlorine, pH, Total Alkalinity, and CYA are what you need to control. We use bleach, Borax, baking soda (the 3 Bs), muriatic acid and CYA/Stabilizer. You only need to buy CYA at the pool store--the rest can be purchased anywhere.

steveinaz

Here's the "Best Guess Chart" for figuring out how much free chlorine you should maintain, in relation to your CYA (stabilizer/conditioner) level: