Speakers to small.

Esreuter

Hey again forum.

Well, we are in day 3 of our PCS. Not to bad, company buys the meals and pays for the hotel but man i miss my setup already.

So this leaves me lots of time to research and not test things out. My recent searchings have lead me to this line of questions, I noticed many people asking about the "large" and "small" speaker settings on the avrs.

i am, or was running my M70's and m40's as large speakers as i thought they would be able to reproduce a full range of sound. I would like to know, would a guy save some power and work on the AVR by switching all speakers to small and ajusting the crossover point to 80hz?


are the specs on the polk website just specs, m 70 says it has response from 30 hz to 24khz. is this true or just a spec sheet to make them look better?

what is the lower and upper -3db limit mean anyways?

i ask all of this because soon it will be subwoofer time and i would like to learn as much as possible to maximize my setup.

your help and expertise is always welcomed

ESR:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

SRTer

Esreuter wrote: »

i am, or was running my M70's and m40's as large speakers as i thought they would be able to reproduce a full range of sound. I would like to know, would a guy save some power and work on the AVR by switching all speakers to small and ajusting the crossover point to 80hz?

-are the specs on the polk website just specs, m 70 says it has response from 30 hz to 24khz. is this true or just a spec sheet to make them look better?

what is the lower and upper -3db limit mean anyways?:

Polk Audio specs listed on their website are true and trusted.

Monitor 70's have a range of 30Hz-25kHz. The -3dB limit tells us where the speaker starts to decrease in normal response or volume at certain frequencies. If you play the M 70's lower than 40Hz, the bass note will not play as loud as they are suppose to be.

Playing your speakers on the SMALL setting with a typical 80Hz crossover will allow the Monitor 70's focus on the frequencies most easy for it to create with the least amount of distortion because you are not trying to play them so low.

The AVR doesn't have to work as hard to send enough current to make the lower bass freqs which is a plus too.

The power sub-woofer you should be running will create bass notes from 80Hz and lower with more authority, intensity, and clarity (withstanding buying a cheaply made sub) being that it is specifically made to play lower bass only.

This is why people are asking about what to set thier speakers to.

bsoko2

Here is a nice site with all the info collected for setting up a HT, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=824554. This site should answer just about any question that you would have.

SRTer

DSkip wrote: »

This might be nit-picky, but I don't agree with this. It generally has nothing to do with the speaker and everything to do with the power behind the speakers. AVR's are generally straining when working lower in the FR and it is detrimental to the entire FR. Mids get muddy and the highs get out of balance. You will get better clarity from the M70's cut off at 80. Get an amp and you should be able to run them full range and not lose the SQ an AVR would.

The "small" setting is good for many bookshelves and the like, but in this case the speaker was designed to play well below the 80 hz cutoff.

I don't remember this man talking about buying separate amps. Therefore, I told him what he will need to do considering his setup.

I don't run my RTi A9 and A7 towers on the SMALL setting (with exception to my center channel) with a 80Hz crossover. I also use a AVR which makes plenty real power in 5 channel mode (135 wattsx5). No straining over here. Unless I'm show other people a BluRay, I don't even trun my power sub on.

This is splitting hairs, but we have to consider that everyone is not looking to buy a separate amp or amps. Therefore, we must give them info to help with what they have.

I too would get a amp if I had nothing else to spend on, but I don't NEED it. Wouldnt mind having it either. There are many other who don't require it either.

pearsall001

Here's a great article on the subject: http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/articles/128214.html. I still laugh at how many guys actually think their speakers are "Full Range", they're not even close. I have my LSi system all set to small at 80hz & it sounds incredible for both HT & 2 channel. Proper setup, calibration, room placement, they are all key factors when running a sub/subs in your system. If not done properly one will assume that it just doesn't work in their system. It does take some time but once you get it...there's no looking back.

Almadacr

pearsall001 wrote: »

Here's a great article on the subject: http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/articles/128214.html. I still laugh at how many guys actually think their speakers are "Full Range", they're not even close. I have my LSi system all set to small at 80hz & it sounds incredible for both HT & 2 channel. Proper setup, calibration, room placement, they are all key factors when running a sub/subs in your system. If not done properly one will assume that it just doesn't work in their system. It does take some time but once you get it...there's no looking back.

Nuf said :biggrin:

tonyb

If your looking at subs, don't fret so much about what the M70's will do because the sub will take a big load off of them. Just buy a quality sub that will do justice to both movies and music, set you crossover to 80,adjust from there to your liking,and rock out.

SRTer

Iphone4 double post, sorry.

SRTer

pearsall001 wrote: »

Here's a great article on the subject: http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/articles/128214.html. I still laugh at how many guys actually think their speakers are "Full Range", they're not even close. I have my LSi system all set to small at 80hz & it sounds incredible for both HT & 2 channel. Proper setup, calibration, room placement, they are all key factors when running a sub/subs in your system. If not done properly one will assume that it just doesn't work in their system. It does take some time but once you get it...there's no looking back.

This article is what I'm talking about. Much more detailed information than I can type on a iPhone4. Set it to crossover at 80Hz and buy a nice sub and your home free.

Everyone who has posted agrees basically that this I what needs to be done. So, this thread is pretty much done.

Also, I would like to say. Thanks for you're service and hope you PCS goes well and that none of you items are broken or stolen once you receive every thing.

I was Air Force, 2001-2008.

cnh

That article has been a kind of 'gospel' around here. But I can tell you from experience that if you have the power the M-70s will sound 'better' if you 'do not' cross them over at 80hz.

This is for TWO channel. For HT--do what you want, follow the article if that works for you. I still have mine crossed over lower than 80hz even in HT. To my ears There is no significant difference even in HT. It is however up to the individual owner/listener. Believe me I tried with that 80hz thing, but it just didn't do it for me. 4 mid-woofers and a tweeter at 80hz. M-30s are good at 80hz--they're bookshelves.

It should be added that I do NOT run the sub in two channel most of the time! So crossing over at 80hz there makes no sense.

My advice, try it 'both' ways and let your ears be the judges! Different strokes for different folks. It's all good for someone.

cnh

Dobermann

I found the sound very lacking when I had my Monitor 60's set to small and crossed over at 80 hz. Especially for music, where it just seemed to kill the liveliness of upper bass frequencies. I love my subwoofer but I truly believe most subwoofers aren't cut out for playing up to 80 or 90 hz.

I set my mains to large and never looked back.

Now for movies, the "small" rule may be the way to go. But I don't feel like changing my setups all the time.

Conradicles

To me 80hz is way too high for my sub to be working. I like 50 hz and run the mains as large. Sounds best in my room to my big ears.

pdxfj

When I had my M70's running off an AVR, I had them set to 80hz and never liked how they sounded. Once I added an amp, I messed with different crossover points and discovered they liked to be at 60hz (including the CS2). This really opened them up they sounded great.

Now that I'm running A7's with the A6 center I've been experimenting with 50hz and 40hz crossover points. I may settle on 50hz. With enough power the larger center channel speakers are able to dig deeper than you think and not get at all muddy. Letting them go lower really adds a lot of depth.

SRTer

pdxfj wrote: »

When I had my M70's running off an AVR, I had them set to 80hz and never liked how they sounded. Once I added an amp, I messed with different crossover points and discovered they liked to be at 60hz (including the CS2). This really opened them up they sounded great.

Now that I'm running A7's with the A6 center I've been experimenting with 50hz and 40hz crossover points. I may settle on 50hz. With enough power the larger center channel speakers are able to dig deeper than you think and not get at all muddy. Letting them go lower really adds a lot of depth.

You do know that the -3dB limit on the CSi A6 is 55Hz. This means that you will not get the true body of sound under 55Hz. True, its rated to 45Hz-27kHz but the -3dB is of critical importance.

I too have run my CSi A6 center channel at 50Hz, 80Hz, and full range (LARGE) for months at a time and switching it on certain movie parts like a man riding a horse in the woods on the Game of Thrones with a tested 135 watts on the center.

You will without a doubt miss some of the bass and impact of such a part of a movie. I run the rest of my speakers full range (RTi A9's and A7's)

Mon40CSMM10

Don't overlook the issue that the speakers themselves may need help from an equalizer or tone controls.

Yes, I am aware that some believe eq/tone controls only distort the sound but I just found out that was the problem with the Monitor 40/PSW 110 setup I had been struggling to get proper sound from. Read on...

I kept getting plenty of bass drum, but not enough midbass from instruments such as bass guitars or bass synths. The VSX-517K receiver itself locks out Tone control use from anything other than Stereo. Now, I usually run in Direct mode for AM/FM radio , and in various Pro Logic II modes for movies, music from a source other than the radio, and video games. Therefore, none of those would allow the tone control usage. The only way I got that sort of midbass instrument response at lower volumes was to run at a 150 Hz crossover, not acceptable for music nor movies. Either that, or run without a sub, not acceptable for a main living room sound system. Setting to Large just made everything extremely boomy even when a passive crossover ("bass blocker") was added. Plugging the ports didn't work either, it took away the boomy bass but also took away nearly all the bass.

As an experiment, I changed the Monitor 40's out for a pair of Pioneer CS-G203 three-way speakers (front ported design)--despite now having mismatched components with respect to Front (Pioneer)/Center(Polk)/Surround (KLH), they are all properly calibrated to approximately 75 dB peak per channel at the calibration reference volume, the sound is excellent and right where I wanted it when I set the sub Low Pass dial to LFE and the AVR is crossed over at 80 Hz. I don't even have to set the sub dial any higher than just below the 9 o'clock position, and therefore the sub is just barely backing up the low end since the front speakers can go down to 40 Hz. But then again, those Pioneers are also extremely efficient--the Left front is running at channel level -9.0 dB and the Right channel is running at -9.5 dB channel level when compared to the Polk Center channel running at -3.0 dB channel level. Online reviews of the CS-G203 tend to suggest boomy bass and a harsh tweeter, but I'm not getting that problem with the moderate volumes I am using.

As for the Monitor 40's, they got moved to the other room, and they are running full range without a sub on a Technics stereo only receiver. Testing showed that I could get the midbass response I wanted if I increased the Bass tone control dial on the receiver and also slightly reduced the Treble dial. However, I also found that when increasing the bass, it did tend to also get a little muddy and boomy, so I added a passive crossover ("bass blocker") to them.

I don't have any external equalizers, but in theory the same would be valid for use with an equalizer instead of tone controls.

20hz

Conradicles wrote: »

To me 80hz is way too high for my sub to be working. I like 50 hz and run the mains as large. Sounds best in my room to my big ears.

in my setup the sony es XO is non adjustable and way high it may be 80 but sounds like 120+ , so I went externall elec XO , I usually have it set to 70-90hz . my sub is really smooth 20-80hz and my mains are fine even at 50hz up .
When I upgrade the avr I will get something w/adj x/o and bag the energy eac xo but as conradicles said "sounds best in my big room to my big ears"

Esreuter

Thank you SRTer, I must be clear with you, I am the spouse, my wife is DOD.

So our family thanks you for your support.

I dont want you thinkin I am lying or be shocked when I say I am the civilian.

I keep trying to enlist but my wife says one of us is enough.

Our last move was blaaa. The people nice the company nice, the claims adjuster, let me put it this way, if i ever meet her in person, i am going to remove her ovaries, so she can not contaminate this world.

I know every one wants more than what things are worth, but this lady was just rude from the word go. slow to answer emails, calls, incompetent to answer basic questions and offer guidance.

so yeah, ahhh, the pains of PCS, gotta love em.

For others, yes there is external amps in the future. I have save up slowly, fill the audio coffers again, if you catch my drift.

I am gathering that once i have the proper power in place, I can run my setup full range. I am truly excited for this.

As of right now I am powering of the AVR, so when we find a new home and get our stuff back i will play with the crossover points and learn about them first hand.

The purchase order will be as follows, 1. subwoofer, 2. XO mods 3. external power.

reasoning: I want the sub to round out and compliment the system. This will come first so we can enjoy the full range of audio.

the XO mods will be a practice and learning run before the LSI purchase and hot rodding. Figured i am 3-4 years away from a LSI purchase why not do a inexpensive mod to the XO's

lastly, since the XO mods are only 40-50bucks each this will tide me over while i save for external amplification. and then can really enjoy full range sound.

thats my reasoning.

I will give that article a read now but i have some other duties i have to complete before, wheels up tomorrow morning.

thanks for your help again and always

ESR:biggrin::biggrin:

Lietuvis91

A7s and A9s have dedicated woofers, hence, they should be fed GOOD power and run at Full range. That's what they are built to do.

M70s do NOT have dedicated woofers, they NEED good power to produce any kind of meaningfull mid range and while they will attempt to play low frequencies, they suck at doing it. Running them at 80hz may be too high, as they can go lower and still sound ok, WITH GOOD POWER, but I don't go lower than 60hz, as this starts to compromise clarity of the higher frequencies, even with 205 w/ch parasound 1500a. For everything below 60, I have a solid sub

As always, room acoustics, and personal taste can lead to differences in settings for different poeple.

SRTer

DSkip wrote: »

What AVR do you use? I wish the HK 240 had selectable xovers, although I'm not sure it matters much. My LSi's start to sound anemic off the 240 when running 5 channels. An amp is my next purchase when the funds become available.

And I was nit-picky because I wanted the OP to know his speakers probably aren't the weak link that might cause them to sound better when set to small in this scenario, though I'm sure he's aware of that.

I use a Pioneer Elite SC-35 which has adjustable crossovers and plenty power compared to many other AVR's. This receiver has has the same power as the SC-37 flagship minus some internet streaming and other little things. The SC-35 has held off my Rotel amp purchase because it sounds really good with the RTi A towers I now run. D-class ICE power!:biggrin:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-elite-sc-37-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

I had a Harmon Kardon AVR-254 which didn't cut it on 4 RTi8 towers. They where bright and muddy when set to LARGE (full range). I then replaced it with Pioneer Elite VSX-23 which changed my life!

The auto calibration and power was weak on the H/K AVR-254 particular on how it controlled my sub, and then the Elite sucked me in.

I don't know what AVR the OP is using but their are options for people who don't want are can not afford a amp right now.

SRTer

Lietuvis91 wrote: »

A7s and A9s have dedicated woofers, hence, they should be fed GOOD power and run at Full range. That's what they are built to do.

M70s do NOT have dedicated woofers, they NEED good power to produce any kind of meaningfull mid range and while they will attempt to play low frequencies, they suck at doing it. Running them at 80hz may be too high, as they can go lower and still sound ok, WITH GOOD POWER, but I don't go lower than 60hz, as this starts to compromise clarity of the higher frequencies, even with 205 w/ch parasound 1500a. For everything below 60, I have a solid sub

As always, room acoustics, and personal taste can lead to differences in settings for different people.

This is true, the Monitor 70's help in the lower areas, this is why I suggested the 80Hz without knowing what kind of AVR the man is running while not having an amp.

His M70's are most likely seeing no more than a 35-40 watts in 5 channel mode. They will not sound good like that at full range (LARGE), period.

SRTer

Dobermann wrote: »

I found the sound very lacking when I had my Monitor 60's set to small and crossed over at 80 hz. Especially for music, where it just seemed to kill the liveliness of upper bass frequencies. I love my subwoofer but I truly believe most subwoofers aren't cut out for playing up to 80 or 90 hz.

I set my mains to large and never looked back.

Now for movies, the "small" rule may be the way to go. But I don't feel like changing my setups all the time.

What are you using to power your speakers while configured to full range (LARGE)?

tonyb

I get the whole set at 80 crossover thing, but I'm still somewhat confused on why people buy big floorstanders,say like rti12's, or even bigger,then cross them over at 80. Whats the point of having big woofers in the lower portion if it won't see a signal that will move them ? Why not just buy a good bookie,or a floorstander with a few more mids to it, and a sub ? Just seems like a waste of coin to me.
Personally, I don't use a sub and run mine full out. Then again I have 3 12 inchers in each floorstander, never lacked low end for music or movies.

Dobermann

SRTer wrote: »

What are you using to power your speakers while configured to full range (LARGE)?

Denon 591

Erik Tracy

tonyb wrote: »

I get the whole set at 80 crossover thing, but I'm still somewhat confused on why people buy big floorstanders,say like rti12's, or even bigger,then cross them over at 80. Whats the point of having big woofers in the lower portion if it won't see a signal that will move them ? Why not just buy a good bookie,or a floorstander with a few more mids to it, and a sub ? Just seems like a waste of coin to me.
Personally, I don't use a sub and run mine full out. Then again I have 3 12 inchers in each floorstander, never lacked low end for music or movies.

The arguments go thus:
* No bookshelf or tower on the planet or known universe can 'properly' reproduce bass like a subwoofer (doesn't account for the fact that not all subs are created equal).

* Amps are unduly strained to power towers with nasty bass signals (doesn't account that properly matching amps to speakers can have 'amp'le headroom)

* It is very hard to integrate mains set as large with subs (yet it seems that integrating multiple subs are easy)

I get the intent - but if I may do a Captain Barbossa impression...
The HT 'code' is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. Welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner....arrrrrrr :biggrin:

tonyb

Well, thats my point, if your going to use a subwoofer with tower speakers set to small, your wasting coin on those big 10 or 12 inch woofers in a tower.

Also, a subwoofer for music can draw too much attention to itself and sound localized. Not always the case on a well intergrated system though.

I have found,for music anyway and just my preference, that a well amplified tower sounds more coherant top to bottom than seperate subs. Movies is a different animal.

So back to the Op, why not go for some rtia bookies and a good sub ?

SRTer

tonyb wrote: »

Well, thats my point, if your going to use a subwoofer with tower speakers set to small, your wasting coin on those big 10 or 12 inch woofers in a tower.

Also, a subwoofer for music can draw too much attention to itself and sound localized. Not always the case on a well intergrated system though.

I have found,for music anyway and just my preference, that a well amplified tower sounds more coherant top to bottom than seperate subs. Movies is a different animal.

So back to the Op, why not go for some rtia bookies and a good sub ?

There is an idea, or some RTi A7's.

tonyb

Dobermann wrote: »

Denon 591

In 5 channel mode, the power drops to about 35 watts a channel. Running your speaks large, I would definately be aware of volume levels in surround mode if you like to crank on it.

Often we talk about setting crossovers at 80, this is not written in stone. If you don't like 80, try 70,60, 55, whatever sounds best to you. We recommend 80 only as a starting point. So if you set your towers to small, and don't like the sound,play around alittle bit, get accustomed to the different settings in your receiver. Some are unfamiliar with their own gears capabilities in tayloring the sound.

Dobermann

tonyb wrote: »

In 5 channel mode, the power drops to about 35 watts a channel. Running your speaks large, I would definately be aware of volume levels in surround mode if you like to crank on it.

It's a small room, so the highest I've ever had the volume is like -9 db. I'm good.

I am curious where you came up with that 35 number though. I figured it to be more like 55-60 based on everything I've read. I've looked at bench tests and Denons seem to fare pretty well generally losing only around 30% of spec all channels driven.

Esreuter

Hey all,

I got lots to answer.

First off, please look down on my signature, that will answer your AVR question.

You are all correct in the 5 channel setup I am only pushing something like 45-50 watts. It gets yucky in the 7 channel setup something like 30-40 watts. thus the need for external amplification. And also the reason i started this post, because with adding a sub and adjusting the XO point i can utilize more power per channel because the AVR doesn't have to work so hard. Then i can enjoy full range sound and this can hold me over until i have enough money for external amps.

On the RTI bookies, nien, this is my introductory system. A brief story is in undergrad i built a cerwin vega system only to shake the windows, cant identify any other noise but booom boom. Being older and wiser I am building a system to understand and enjoy clarity. thus my reasoning for building and hot rodding the Monitor series, then after time and learning with this system, stepping up into the big boy arena with the LSI system, the now older ones not the LSIM. So i feel by adding a middle step the RTIs', though would be nice addition and good learning experience, I think stepping up to a great system would be a better idea for my time and coin.

sorry i cant post my results just yet, give me a few weeks to a month, hopefully it wont take that long to get a house. then i can test and hear the difference for my self. all of your experiences and input is very valuable, and i thank you.

ESR:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Geoff4rfc

Esreuter wrote: »

Hey all,

I got lots to answer.

First off, please look down on my signature, that will answer your AVR question.

You are all correct in the 5 channel setup I am only pushing something like 45-50 watts. It gets yucky in the 7 channel setup something like 30-40 watts. thus the need for external amplification. And also the reason i started this post, because with adding a sub and adjusting the XO point i can utilize more power per channel because the AVR doesn't have to work so hard. Then i can enjoy full range sound and this can hold me over until i have enough money for external amps.

On the RTI bookies, nien, this is my introductory system. A brief story is in undergrad i built a cerwin vega system only to shake the windows, cant identify any other noise but booom boom. Being older and wiser I am building a system to understand and enjoy clarity. thus my reasoning for building and hot rodding the Monitor series, then after time and learning with this system, stepping up into the big boy arena with the LSI system, the now older ones not the LSIM. So i feel by adding a middle step the RTIs', though would be nice addition and good learning experience, I think stepping up to a great system would be a better idea for my time and coin.

sorry i cant post my results just yet, give me a few weeks to a month, hopefully it wont take that long to get a house. then i can test and hear the difference for my self. all of your experiences and input is very valuable, and i thank you.

ESR:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

I have my 70's set to 40hz and let my sub take care of the bass. I have an amp putting out 200wpc to the 70's.

I did an experiment by listening to a Chicago song full of horns. The same song back to back with the 70's set to full range and then to 40hz.

I did the test twice and the 70's brought forth the horns way better when set to 40hz. When set to full range, there was less crispness. Don't get me wrong, full range still sounded good, but when done side by side, the 40hz setting brought the sound.

SRTer

Dobermann wrote: »

It's a small room, so the highest I've ever had the volume is like -9 db. I'm good.

I am curious where you came up with that 35 number though. I figured it to be more like 55-60 based on everything I've read. I've looked at bench tests and Denons seem to fare pretty well generally losing only around 30% of spec all channels driven.

I find it strange that you stated in one thread.

"Wattage specs on H/K receivers are very conservative and they usually will outdo their ratings by a good bit. Denon, Pioneer Elite and Yamaha usually approach their rating but don't quite get there.

Most of the regular Pioneer, Sony, etc fall way short of their specs."

You do know the Pio Elite SC's make thier power rating in 5 channel (rated 140 watts/bench tested 135 watts) as where I can think of a current Denon that comes near to this 5 watts difference.

If your running full range towers like this, you are most-likely missing some low end bass impact and clarity.