A Knight's Tale

Dr. Spec

Think ya got a good sub? Here's a subtle yet demanding test that only the best subs will handle with complete grace, authority, and clarity.

Cue up this DVD to 2:03:53 and tell me if you can hear the 3 second synthesized deep bass note. It's subtle but immediately commands your attention. This passage is actually a reference test for me when evaluating a sub.

The note checks in somewhere around 21-22 Hz. If I set my SS filter to 25 Hz (actually kicks in at 22 Hz) vice 16 Hz, the note diminishes somewhat in power so I know it's right around 20-22 Hz.

There is a second, considerably louder and somewhat higher (about 25 Hz) 3 second note at 2:03:59 that is also very impressive when played at Reference Level.

Doc

wlrandall

Thanks, Doc, pick on us guys with PSWs that'll never hear it...

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by wlrandall
Thanks, Doc, pick on us guys with PSWs that'll never hear it...

At least give it a try........

This is one of those passages that makes you say "whoa - did you hear that?" and then you back it up and play again like 5 times in a row.

VR3

WHAT BASS?????? lol All I heard was a blown driver flapping in the wind

Charles Rose

Greetings,

This is my first post in this forum, but I have been following the discussions on low frequency sub response for some time. I figured since I have a copy of the forementioned movie that I would try to see what my PSW650 could do. The first passage was just -barely- audible at a volume of 60 on my Onkyo TX-SR600. Sub at volume of 8 +3db boost. However, the second passage was very impressive (25Hz)! Not sure what reference level is however.

Charles

RT7 mains
CSi30 center
PSW650 sub

wlrandall

OK, Doc, I'll give it a shot...

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by Charles Rose
The first passage was just -barely- audible......however, the second passage was very impressive (25Hz)!

Hi Charles - welcome to Club Polk!

The first note is "at least" 1/3 of an octave below the second note. It is a very difficult test for a sub - so deep it is almost subliminal.

I turned it so loud on playback it waffled my pants. :cool:

Speaking of - see if you can become a member of the PWC. Do a thread search and check back with me.

Doc

danger boy

my little psw350 can't play it. but then that doesn't surprise me. Oh to have a decent sub.

? for sub lovers. is your sub the most expensive speaker in your system? Should it be?

thanks, sorry to hi jack the thread.

Grimster74

I just bought this DVD this past weekend at Wal-Mart for $8. Have not watched it yet, though I've already seen it before, but I will certainly give it a shot tonight when I get home. Dr. Spec, right know I have all 3 ports open and my SS filter is set at 25hz. Is this where I need to be.

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by danger boy
is your sub the most expensive speaker in your system? Should it be?

The sub should cost around 50%-75% of the total speaker cost unless you are going DIY.

Let's say you are:

RTi70 $500
CSi40 $300
FXi50 $400
CSi30 $200

$1400 so the sub might run $700-$900 for a model that would have commensurate quality and performance.

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by Grimster74
I have all 3 ports open and my SS filter is set at 25hz. Is this where I need to be.

This movie has a high rewatchability factor - you'll like it - lots of fun, good soundtrack, light hearted. Much better than I would have given it credit for. Don't miss the extra at the end of the credits - it's a gas.

Try 3/16 for that passage. The 3/25 setting knocks out a bit of it.

This is not a "knock your socks off" passage - it is a subtle tension building note that is menacingly deep and stands your hair on end at Reference Level.

We talk so much about lease breaking DVDs and SPL peaks, sometimes it's fun to appreciate the more subtle but still impressive scenes.

Overall, the jousting scenes with the hooves and breaking lances have good strong bass but could have been cooked a tad hotter and are only really impressive at/near Reference Level with the sub running a bit hot. Then it will shake the room.

burdette

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
The sub should cost around 50%-75% of the total speaker cost unless you are going DIY.

Let's say you are:

RTi70 $500
CSi40 $300
FXi50 $400
CSi30 $200

$1400 so the sub might run $700-$900 for a model that would have commensurate quality and performance.

Doc... something doesn't add up.... if you spend a TOTAL of $1400 + $900 = $2300, then the $900 sub would be about 39% overall. Did you mean the sub should cost 50%-75% of the total of all the OTHER speakers... or 50%-75% of the "total" speaker cost including sub... ?? I think it must be the former... 50%-75% of the value you spent on all speakers EXCEPT the sub.

kberg

Thanks for the KT tip, Doc. I'll check it out. I've had this DVD for a while, only watched it once, and that was before the new sub on the block took over.

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by burdette
I think it must be the former... 50%-75% of the value you spent on all speakers EXCEPT the sub.

Yes, that is what I meant. So if you are looking at a 7.1 system and you spend $2000 on the "7", you should spend around $1000-$1500 on the ".1".

Sorry if I was unclear. It's a different way of looking at it vice a percentage of the total cost sub included, but this was how it was described in some e-zine buyer's guide and it stuck in my head.

Again, just a budget number I read somewhere. It seems to make sense in "our" typical price ranges for commercial offerings (DIY excluded). Like most budget guidance, it seems to apply within a reasonable range of cost, and gets out of whack at both ends of the spectrum.

Ed

burdette

So what have you read lately about the percentage of total budget for speakers... all speakers? Long ago I think the rule of thumb was something like at least 50% on speakers.. but that was back when most people had 2 speakers... just curious.. I know individuals will feel differently once they start laying down cash.

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by burdette
So what have you read lately about the percentage of total budget for speakers... all speakers? Long ago I think the rule of thumb was something like at least 50% on speakers.. but that was back when most people had 2 speakers... just curious.. I know individuals will feel differently once they start laying down cash.

I haven't read anything on the total budget for all speakers. Sorry.

I just helped a co-worker piece together a pretty decent 7.1 system:

RTi70 x 2
CSi40 x 1
FXi50 x 2
80 (in wall) x 2
$1500 all


AVR2803 $600
DVD1200 $300
Hitachi 57" HDTV $2500

Signal Cable interconnects (including DVD-A and video x 2 for digital cable) $350

IB subwoofer with twin Stryke AV15 and a QSC touring amp $800 (including build materials for the transition box and to support it).

Total: $6000
Speaker Cost: $2300 = 38%

Ed

burdette

Ya... HT sort of mucks the picture a bit. NOT counting the twenty-five hundred bucks for a TV, he spent 2/3 on speakers.

I think I'd be in that ballpark of thinking... half to 2/3 on loudspeakers.

Charles Rose

Hey Doc,

Thanks for the offer to join the PWC, but I doubt the PSW650 can produce the level required. The highest db I have measured with it is about 108 db with some BassConnection stuff. It did have the house shakin' pretty good though. 110 db is out of the range of the little 650 at 21 hz (LOTR ring drop sequence).

Just curious though, is the extended version the best version, or is the standard LOTR ok just in case I decide to tempt fate?

Charles

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by Charles Rose
Hey Doc,

Thanks for the offer to join the PWC, but I doubt the PSW650 can produce the level required. The highest db I have measured with it is about 108 db with some BassConnection stuff. It did have the house shakin' pretty good though. 110 db is out of the range of the little 650 at 21 hz (LOTR ring drop sequence).

Just curious though, is the extended version the best version, or is the standard LOTR ok just in case I decide to tempt fate?

Charles

Hey, ya never know. I originally estimated 22-23 Hz, but the ring drop is smack dab at 25 Hz so the 650 might make it interesting, since it is rated to 26 Hz (-3 dB).

The theatrical version is actually the hottest of the three soundtracks (two on the EE version), although I like the quality of the bass best on the DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete soundtrack of the extended version. For PWC purposes, the theatrical will work fine.

elsid88

Dr. Spec and Charles,

I also being a owner of the 650 played both sequences and I have to concur with Charles. The first pass is barely there, yet I didn't push it. My system is calibrated to be @ reference when the dial on my Denon 4800 is set to 0, and I was @ -15 when doing this test. However, the second pass was quite nice. Wife couldn't figure what the heck I was doing, then again she has never understood my plight into the HT adventure.

As far as the LotR "Ring Drop" still waiting on getting a meter to measure.

If I had to do it all over again, I probably would have gone SVS, but @ the time I was impressed with the 650 and liked how it looked and sounded in the HT.

Tom...

avelanchefan

I still giggle at the Ring drop. I remember the first time I heard it, and I was could not believe it. I still play that just for the hell of it.

Grimster74

Hey Spec., it was pretty funny yesterday, as soon as I walked in the house I went directly downstairs, the wife was like, what the hell are you doing, told her I'll be upstairs in a minute. Anyways, tried A Knights Tale yesterday, dropped the SS filter to 16hz and let her rip. Whoooaaaa. It was definately there, only about 3 seconds, but it was there. Once I went upstairs the wife was like what was that all about, told her what I was doing and she was like, you just drive my **** crazy. Told me I just need to sit downstairs and watch everyone of my movies, which is about 200 of them, and get it over with. Wonder if work would understand me taking off a couple of days just to watch movies, NOT.

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by Grimster74
Anyways, tried A Knights Tale yesterday, dropped the SS filter to 16hz and let her rip. Whoooaaaa. It was definately there, only about 3 seconds, but it was there.

Quite an eye opener. Not very loud, but definitely elicits a "whoaa".

I actually played that note at +7 over Reference Level just for kicks. The sub took it easily, pressurizing my ears and rattling stuff in the room.

Power corrupts; unlimited power corrupts absolutely.

kberg

Doc, I tested out KT passages last night with 3 ports open and SS filter to 20 (my current std setting). Before I plug a port and set the SS to 16, can you confirm first that it would make a big difference? I don't know if I would leave it this way, but it seems to me that unless I "typically" don't crank my movies to less than 10 clicks under reference level, and instead keep it at say 15-20, perhaps 1 port plugged and set to 16 would be the way to go?

Thoughts?

Btw, the KT passage at my current settings sounded excellent.

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by kberg
it seems to me that unless I "typically" don't crank my movies to less than 10 clicks under reference level, and instead keep it at say 15-20, perhaps 1 port plugged and set to 16 would be the way to go?

This is a very subjective topic. Personally, I always preferred the sound of an SVS with all ports open.

I lived with the PC+ for a year and tried all sorts of port tunes. I always came back to the native tune of 3/20. That sub digs so deep in the stock tune, you would hard pressed to hear any difference in extension between 3/20 and 2/16. But you will sure hear and feel a difference in impact.

I'd rather see you run it 3/16 at 15 or 20 under RL and take advantage of room gain than run it 2/16.

Again - this is subjective. Try them all and see how you like it.

Doc

kberg

Excellent - thanks for the feedback. I didn't think of the 3/16 possibility.

Charles Rose

Well Doc,

I decided to go ahead and attempt to enter the PWC. As I understand, using the LOTR ring drop sequence, one must be able to reach 110db from at least 10ft as measured with RadioShack sound pressure meter set on Cweighted fast.

I will say that it took a couple of days of experimenting, but I succeeded in getting 111 db at 24ft! This was done by using my room acoustics and pointing the sound pressure meter towards a corner of my living room opposite my sub 24 ft away:) . This area of wave propagation was discovered as I was walking around listening to Steely Dan's (two against nature) tonight. My receiver (Onkyo TX-SR600) was set at a volume of 65 with the internal sub level set at 8. Sub volume was at 8 with 3db sub boost. Dang what a thump that scence makes. My kids were a little scared of the thumps (it took me about six attempts gradually pushing up the receiver volume from 55). The sound was clean and undistorted.

So will this make me an official PWC member (I did feel the hair in my beard blow as I made the measurements:p )?

Charles

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by Charles Rose
The sound was clean and undistorted. So will this make me an official PWC member (I did feel the hair in my beard blow as I made the measurements:p )?

Charles

Oh yeah, Charles! Official member of the PWC with the 650 checking in at 111 dB at 24 feet.

FYI - the opposite corner is often the strongest bass. I get about 120 on C-weighted Fast on that scene in my opposite corner at 16 feet.

Charles Rose

I get about 120 on C-weighted Fast on that scene in my opposite corner at 16 feet.

Wow! That is some sound pressure.

I will have to see how high the little 650 will go some time when the wife and kids are absent. At 111db it felt like the whole house was jumping when the ring hit bottom:cool.

The 650 will give consistent readings with the meter pointed towards one of the woofers on axis at 10-12 ft of 105-106 db with the ring drop, but that is it. It was starting to crackle at little.
But that's quite loud. I can't imagine 120 db of pure thump!


Charles

Dr. Spec

We get very similar readings, proportionally.

Rounding off, I get 115 at the seat and 120 in the rear corner. And you get 105 at the seat, and 110 in the rear corner.

I didn't know you could only hit 105-106 at the seat before it started to crackle. You really should be able to hit 110 at the seat for true PWC membership. The 10 foot minimum requirement was really to keep cheaters from placing the meter a foot from the cone and claiming they were in.

I really never envisioned finding a hot spot in a corner as a means of making the PWC (unless you sit there of course), since the thought never occurred to me. Maybe that's why lawyers were invented. :cool:

Your short lived PWC membership is hereby revoked with extreme prejudice and you are remanded to the nearest computer with instructions to order an SVS Plus subwoofer at which juncture your membership shall be reinstated.

Charles Rose

Well, I'll say that it seemed to be a legitimate measure based on some others made in the PWC thread...The stated critera were met.

However, you are the Judge.

CR