Confused about Belles 350a Reference amp

dbaldus

I'm trying to find a used Belles 350a Reference amp and have become frustrated and somewhat confused. I understand that some of the original 350a References would trip certain 15a circuit breakers in homes due to the current draw when powering up the amp. I also understand that they modified some of the amps made later in the production cycle to use a "soft start" circuit to avoid this and that they even modded a few to add this functionality. There is now a new version out ("version 2") that uses a different transformer altogether to avoid this problem.

Am I missing anything here? For example, were there any 350a References made between the time when they realized the issue and version 2?

Basically, I'm worried about buying one of the "originals" (no soft start) and not being able to power it up if my house's wiring can't handle it. I'm also worried that I won't be able to find a used one if I keep waiting for one with the soft start circuit to show up. This seems to leave me with the only option of buying a new one (version 2), which is out of my price range at the moment.

Does anyone know more than me about this? Does anyone know if the versions with the soft start show up in the used market very often? All I've been able to find so far are the originals.

I know there's some Belles fans here on the forum, so any input is much appreciated - I just don't want to end up buying an amp that I can't use because it keeps blowing the circuit in my house.

Thanks!

george daniel

I had an original 350a and it never tripped my 15 amp breakers.ricardo got it from me and had it upgraded to the reference IIRC.Good luck--sweet amp.

Ern Dog

I can't answer your question, but wanted to say that I've always wanted to hear what this amp sounds like. I know it is a highly regarded amp by many and gets great reviews. I hope you find one and post your impressions. I'm sure it will pair up nicely with your Tyler Acoustics speakers.

dbaldus

george daniel wrote: »

I had an original 350a and it never tripped my 15 amp breakers.ricardo got it from me and had it upgraded to the reference IIRC.Good luck--sweet amp.

Did the original 350a have these problems as well, or just the reference version?

I'm assuming I'm completely screwed if my breakers keep tripping every time I power up, unless I'm missing something? I'm lacking understanding on home electrical systems so I'm not really sure if there's any way around a circuit that keeps tripping...

marvda1

i don't think the problem was breakers tripping but the loud thump you would hear through your speakers when you turned the amp on scared a lot of people.

george daniel

I never heard any thumps at power on/off with the Belles 350a,,,adcom,,thats a different story.

george daniel

dbaldus wrote: »

Did the original 350a have these problems as well, or just the reference version?

I'm assuming I'm completely screwed if my breakers keep tripping every time I power up, unless I'm missing something? I'm lacking understanding on home electrical systems so I'm not really sure if there's any way around a circuit that keeps tripping...

Again-- I had a 350a(non reference),,it never tripped a breaker.

heiney9

To trip a 15A breaker would mean some serious current draw at turn on. I doubt that it would be an issue unless the circuit you have it on is already loaded with other current hogging devices.

H9

treitz3

Some models of Carver amplifiers did the same thing. It was in the design. There are three ways to bypass it. You can run a dedicated 20 amp line, power the unit up and temporarily force the circuit breaker closed [no more than 2 seconds and definitely not the preferred or recommended method] or you can keep it on 24/7.

With some of the Carver amplifiers, changing out the filter caps to new ones eliminated this issue. BTW, I got your PM. I'm not that familiar with Belles amplifiers to be honest with you, which is why I haven't responded. I do have a question for you though. Why, if you don't mind me asking, are you interested in just a Belles amplifier?

george daniel

The Belles is an excellent high current/power amp--I never had an issue with mine.The Op appears to be interested in a "ref" version with the soft start feature.

dbaldus

treitz3 wrote: »

I do have a question for you though. Why, if you don't mind me asking, are you interested in just a Belles amplifier?

I've heard great things about the amp and the bang for the buck seems to be quite high. I'd certainly entertain other amps, but at the moment was trying to move on an Audiogon ad so I asked about the Belles.

Maybe I should start looking for other amps in the $2000 - $2200 (used) range so I don't have to worry about this crazy circuit breaking problem? :eek:

george daniel

you could do alot worse than the Belles-- but if you are concerned about the power/breaker issues,, then by all means,,stay clear from Belles.He's only been building them for 30 years,, call him directly and ask.If he is there ,I'm sure he'll talk to you.

David Belles 585-586-0740

treitz3

Well, I've had some amps in and out with the same speakers you have and I have got to say that the Musical Fidelity A3cr pairs the best with these speakers. There is a A5cr on the 'gone now for just under 1K and if it's the same as mine, however, further up in the lineup I just do not see how you could dislike it. I've had amps upwards of 4K in the rig and this MF amp does them more justice for sound reproduction in all aspects than any of the other ones.

I actually bought this as a backup amplifier and now I'm kinda thinkin' that the other amps I have will go up on the auction block and that I will start looking at the one I suggested to you or one's further on up the line. Linear would be a very good word to describe this amp. Everything else it does, it does quite well and the speakers definitely become transparent.

Here's a thread of my observations of this amplifier...http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119126&

The shootout is not done yet but I have a feeling I know who the winner is.

george daniel

I just hate to see the guy not try the Belles because of an issue that may not be an issue,,thats all-- I'm outta this one--good luck to the OP.

heiney9

george daniel wrote: »

I just hate to see the guy not try the Belles because of an issue that may not be an issue,,thats all-- I'm outta this one--good luck to the OP.

I agree George, if neither you nor Ricardo had this issue, I'm betting it's a non-issue or issue specific.

Again, if you're not running a dedicated line and you have other things drawing current then it *might* create an issue if the circuit is already partially loaded. It would be interesting to know the specific circumstances of these incidences. FTR, I have no experience with this particular Belles, but I have experiences with other similar amps and to trip a full 15a breaker on start up is kinda rare.

H9

dbaldus

Guys, I'm not trying to be difficult here or ignore anyone's advice, but this is indeed an issue and not something that I'm just being paranoid about.

The Soundstage review of this amp mentions the issue:

"Lights dim in neighbors? houses when the 350A Reference is turned on -- well, at least in your house. Beware: Power conditioners with 15-amp breakers may trip when you turn on a connected 350A Reference. It is also possible that a marginal 15-amp breaker in your home?s power panel might kick off when you turn on this amp. Belles is considering a soft-start circuit if it can be incorporated without compromising sonics. After power-up, there is no problem operating the 350A Reference from a standard 15-amp AC outlet, and I had no problems with tripping a circuit breaker on a 20-amp dedicated line."

Link to full review here:

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/belles_350a_reference.htm

However, I was skeptical myself as many of you seem to be right now, so I gave Dave Belles a call yesterday and spoke with him about the issue.

Dave said that several people did have this issue with the amp, but if you are able to put it on a 20 amp line then there is no problem. He said the last 50 amps that were made had the soft-start circuit installed and that he charged people $500 to upgrade them to contain the soft-start circuit, however, will no longer do this because there was so much labor involved and they were losing a lot of money on it.

My concern right now is that I'm currently renting and will be moving within a few months to another place. My current place does not have a 20 amp line available in any place I could make into a listening room and I have no idea if my new place will either.

Trust me, I WANT to try this amp. I started this thread to see if anyone knew more than I did about this that would make me feel better about trying it out. It's just hard to throw down $2000 for a used amp when there's a known, lurking issue like this that may make the amp totally unusable to me when I get it home.

Again, I'm not trying to be difficult here, it's just a difficult situation. Hope this makes sense and I do greatly appreciate everyone's advice so far.

Thanks

heiney9

I would say based on the above post, either 100% confirm it has the soft start or pass on this amp because of this potential issue.

H9

billbillw

Note that it says 'marginal 15-amp' breakers. Get it, try it. If its a problem, replace the breaker with a new one. It really shouldn't be something you sweat about.

treitz3

I'm just gonna go ahead and throw this out there....some [not all] breakers are sensitive and can be tripped easily. In some of these cases, it may have been something as simple as going to HD or Lowe's and installing a different breaker [20 bucks, max] to see if it was one of the sensitive [or marginal] one's.

I wasn't going to mention anything and I DO NOT recommend doing this but when I had some Carver gear that did this, I went and changed the breaker itself to a 20 amp breaker, even though everything downstream was only rated for 15 amps. Seeing as how I only had one room with a light and one bathroom associated with the circuit and I was the only one operating the system, I felt it was OK. If anything else was on the circuit, I wouldn't have done it.....but, that solved the issue altogether.

Since the rig is now downstairs, the 15 amp breaker is back in and all is well. Just food for thought. You only need the surge for a second or two over 15 amps.

george daniel

billbillw wrote: »

Note that it says 'marginal 15-amp' breakers. Get it, try it. If its a problem, replace the breaker with a new one. It really shouldn't be something you sweat about.

Thank you Bill +1

billbillw

treitz3 wrote: »

... simple as going to HD or Lowe's and installing a different breaker [20 bucks, max]...

Actually, its less than $6, and that is for the premium brand (assuming he has a QO panel).

http://www.lowes.com/pd_71801-296-QO115_0__?productId=1098937&Ntt=15-amp+breaker&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3D15-amp%2Bbreaker&facetInfo=

Its cheaper if he has a Homeline panel or one from another brand like Eaton or GE.

treitz3

Sorry, it's been a while since the purchase. Thanks.

dbaldus

billbillw wrote: »

Note that it says 'marginal 15-amp' breakers. Get it, try it. If its a problem, replace the breaker with a new one. It really shouldn't be something you sweat about.

Hmmm... interesting suggestion.

I'll admit up front that I don't know **** about home wiring, so bear with me.

That being said, is it really that easy? If the circuit trips every time I power it up, I just go buy one with more of a "tolerance" or something like that (e.g., the premium circuit breaker from Lowe's that was linked to above)?

Or do I really need to do an analysis of everything that is plugged into that circuit and figure out what the current draw is without it? Because, after all, if the current draw goes above 15 amps, shouldn't any 15 amp circuit breaker, regardless of quality, trip?

dbaldus

treitz3 wrote: »

Well, I've had some amps in and out with the same speakers you have and I have got to say that the Musical Fidelity A3cr pairs the best with these speakers. There is a A5cr on the 'gone now for just under 1K and if it's the same as mine, however, further up in the lineup I just do not see how you could dislike it. I've had amps upwards of 4K in the rig and this MF amp does them more justice for sound reproduction in all aspects than any of the other ones.

I actually bought this as a backup amplifier and now I'm kinda thinkin' that the other amps I have will go up on the auction block and that I will start looking at the one I suggested to you or one's further on up the line. Linear would be a very good word to describe this amp. Everything else it does, it does quite well and the speakers definitely become transparent.

Here's a thread of my observations of this amplifier...http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119126&

The shootout is not done yet but I have a feeling I know who the winner is.

I'm definitely contemplating this suggestion, especially considering it would cost me about half as much as trying out the Belles and I wouldn't have to worry about the potential circuit tripping. That and I'm biased toward your opinion since we're running the same speakers.

One of the things that is appealing to me about the Belles is that the bass control is supposed to be phenomenal and accurate. I read through that thread and saw a lot of comments on the linearity of the amp... any comments on the bass response / woofer control of the M3CR on your Linbrooks?

treitz3

Yes, but it is the timing of some that kill the circuit quicker than others. Hence, the words marginal or sensitive. If you want version 2, then all of this is a mute issue, no?

heiney9

Well if this is going to turn into a thread about amp recommendations then I would say, this would be an excellent choice, maybe even better than those suggested so far.

Pass Labs X150.5 or X250.5. Again just throwing a recommendation out there, since the door is now open

H9

dbaldus

treitz3 wrote: »

Yes, but it is the timing of some that kill the circuit quicker than others. Hence, the words marginal or sensitive. If you want version 2, then all of this is a mute issue, no?

Yes and no. The issue was resolved by adding a different transformer in version 2. The problem is that version 2 has only been out for a few months so the used market is pretty much non-existent as far as I can tell. The new amps are out of my price range right now.

dbaldus

heiney9 wrote: »

Well if this is going to turn into a thread about amp recommendations then I would say, this would be an excellent choice, maybe even better than those suggested so far.

Pass Labs X150.5 or X250.5. Again just throwing a recommendation out there, since the door is now open

H9

Haha, I knew this was going to happen at some point - I'm surprised we held off as long as we did

treitz3

dbaldus wrote: »

Any comments on the bass response of the M3CR on your Tylers?

Absolutely fantastic. It's pure, textured, not over podering, accurate, linear and authoritative. This seems not to change with the volume, it just keeps going. Very controlled. I'm trying to think of any deficiencies in regards to the bass but I'm coming up empty.

It has the ability to shatter the room with authority and still has the grace not to fall apart and start blending the lower regions together. This is from listening to many albums over the course of the last month or so. The better the recording, the better the reproduction and impact.

Keep in mind that I do not listen to my music at insanely loud levels. Concert levels, yes but I'd like to keep my hearing, if you know what I mean. One other thing I'd like to add with this amplifier [not having anything to do with the bass] is that I have yet to find another amplifier that is so responsive to changes in an IC before. Every single one I have sounded different.

heiney9

Concert levels is insanely loud, IMO. I listen at levels in the 90+ dB range at 5 feet away with peaks at 92-95dB. Concert levels are in the 100+ dB region consistently, not peaks. So I'd say you listen very loud. If I had to endure 105-115dB in my listening room (typical concert levels at the lower end) I'd be deaf by now :biggrin:

H9

treitz3

Oh, good lord no. I must listen at the same level you do. Anything louder just becomes annoying no matter what it is that I'm listening too. It'll go louder, I just choose not to go there. I've never been one to "test" the Db levels in my sweet spot, so I'm just guessing here...

115Db is WAY too loud.