Audyssey sub calibration?

Nacken23

Hi everyone I have an Epik Empire sub and have done auto-setup on it with audyssey but it seems the volume is a bit low audyssey set it at +1db.
I set my lsi15 to 100hz after the setup and put the sub at 80hz which I have connected through the LFE input.

Also I used the DVE calibration disc on the sub it went from 30hz to 80hz there was a rise of about 6-8db on each Frequency is this right im not sure thought it should be near even on each frequency or am I wrong?

I put the sub in different positions and there wasnt much difference in sound so I now have it in the front of the room near the side wall.

Any advice?

codyc1ark

I'm not 100% about your question here. What AVR do you have, it is plain audyssey, or is it the multieq version? I believe that only the multieq will eq your sub, so that may explain some of the inconsistency. I always run my set up, and bump the sub level up a notch or two when watching movies, I like a little more slam then. Nice sub BTW, good luck.

-Cody

Nacken23

codyc1ark wrote: »

I'm not 100% about your question here. What AVR do you have, it is plain audyssey, or is it the multieq version? I believe that only the multieq will eq your sub, so that may explain some of the inconsistency. I always run my set up, and bump the sub level up a notch or two when watching movies, I like a little more slam then. Nice sub BTW, good luck.

-Cody

The receiver I have is onkyo 876.
When you turn up your sub level after audyssey do you do it on the receiver or on the sub or does it even matter?

When I played the test tones for the sub I got about 40db at 30hz and it went up around 6-8db on each tone and at 80hz I got about 75db does this sound like its calibrated correctly and all I have to do now is turn up the sub level?

codyc1ark

I turn them up on the AVR, but don't save the settings so it's... 'more correct?' when doing 2 channel . I did this after running Audyssey. I'm not sure if your AVR has the sub eq portion of Audyssey, but I don't think so. Let me restate - I only turn the sub up for movies, and leave it at the Audyssey's level for music. The only thing I could think to advise is a external sub eq, like the Velo SMS-1, I don't have one, but have heard geat things about an external sub eq, its on my short list as of right now. Maybe someone with a little more knowlage in this area can chime in, I wan't to make sure I'm not leading you down the wrong path.

-Cody

kuntasensei

Nacken23 wrote: »

I set my lsi15 to 100hz after the setup and put the sub at 80hz which I have connected through the LFE input.

First, what do you mean by "put the sub at 80Hz"? Are you referring to a filter on the subwoofer itself? On the sub, any filter should be bypassed (which should be irrelevant if you're using the unfiltered LFE input on the Epik, but turn it up to 150Hz just in case). If you're referring to the LPF of LFE setting on your Onkyo, it should always be set to 120Hz, without exceptions. Any other setting truncates audio found in the LFE channel of digital soundtracks. Don't worry that this will increase localization of the subwoofer... This setting only affects the LFE channel, not the redirected bass from the other channels, and the 80Hz setting is only made available to maintain compatibility with older THX-spec'd subs that can't produce the full LFE channel.

As far as the rest of your problem, the first thing you need to do is make sure that your sub is in-phase with your speakers as closely as possible BEFORE running Audyssey. MultEQ will fix time domain issues within reason, but if you're vastly out of phase with your other speakers, it may not be able to filter around it. If you're using 100Hz for your LSi mains, find some test tones in the 80-120Hz region and tweak the phase knob on the Epik until you get a nice blend across that range, then re-run Audyssey. I would start with phase at 0, then try 180, then tweak from there depending on which gives you the smoother transition. Note: Disable the equalization before you run test tones at it.

After you've done that, make sure you're following some common sense guidelines to running Audyssey. Make sure you're using either a camera tripod or a boom mic stand for the Audyssey mic, and be OUT OF THE ROOM when it does the frequency sweeps. Also, make sure that when you place the mic in your listening position and the remaining 7 positions, you don't place the mic capsule BELOW the top of your seatbacks. This can give the mic improper readings due to reflection/absorption off of the seats. And this is the most important thing: RUN ALL POSITIONS AVAILABLE. Do the first three in main listening position, then a few feet to the left, then a few to the right... then for positions 4-6, mirror those positions about 1-2 feet further toward the front of your room. Positions 7-8 can be anywhere in the middle of the rectangle formed by positions 1-6. Ideally, since I want it to sound best at MY seat, I do positions 7 and 8 to the left and right of the my main seat, half-way between the lines formed by 1-3 and 4-6.

A few other quick guidelines: Make sure your sub is at least 3-6" away from the wall. And make sure your seat isn't close to a wall either or boundary gain will play hell with Audyssey's readings. I found that pulling my couch a foot forward made a VAST difference in the sound post-Audyssey.

codyc1ark

kuntasensei wrote: »

If you're referring to the LPF of LFE setting on your Onkyo, it should always be set to 120Hz, without exceptions. Any other setting truncates audio found in the LFE channel of digital soundtracks.

I thought the proper THX setting was having everything crossed at 80Hz? I may be wrong. Other then that, all solid advice. You MAY wan't to check out the subwoofer section at avsforums, they have a lot of information about placement and setup as well.

kuntasensei

codyc1ark wrote: »

I thought the proper THX setting was having everything crossed at 80Hz? I may be wrong. Other then that, all solid advice. You MAY wan't to check out the subwoofer section at avsforums, they have a lot of information about placement and setup as well.

Yes, 80Hz is the recommended crossover for THX spec'd systems (and also a good guideline for speakers in general). However, the LPF of LFE is NOT A CROSSOVER, it's a single filter that only affects the LFE channel (whereas crossovers consist of both a low pass and high pass filter). This control only exists to maintain compatibility with THX-spec'd equipment.

The LFE channel is, by its nature, already brickwall filtered at 120Hz by design. Additionally, mixers rarely put sounds in the LFE channel above 80Hz, since they don't want that channel to be directional. However, the sounds that they do place in the LFE channel have harmonics that lend them their perceived tone, and filtering the LFE channel at 80Hz can filter out those harmonics. It's a very minor difference, but since the goal of most home theater enthusiasts is accurate reproduction of these soundtracks in the home, it is important that the LFE channel be passed to the subwoofer without any filtering so that it is properly reproduced.

From Chris Kyriakakis of Audyssey: "It's a filter that is applied to the content of the separate LFE track found in 5.1 content. That content is authored up to 120 Hz and so the only correct setting is 120 Hz." 'Nuff said.

codyc1ark

Ah, very well rounded answer. Thank you, I wansn't saying that you we're wrong, (more so that I was going by what I have read) but I'm glad you had something to back it up, more then I can say for a lot of peeps around here. Good work!

-Cody

Nacken23

Im still learning about sub equalizing so please answer my questions

Im a bit confused so after I run audyssey and then run the sub test tones the sound of each tone should be near the same level on a SPL meter to get the best possible sound from the sub.
Is this what is called a flat response which I have been reading aboutand im am not getting when I run the test tones:mad:

kuntasensei

It's not that simple. The SPL meter's response actually rolls off as bass gets deeper, so you have to apply a correction chart. In other words, even with ruler-flat response, a 20Hz test tone will read 6dB lower than an 80Hz test tone on the SPL meter. See the correction values here: http://www.svsound.com/questions-faqs-rscomp.cfm

I have an Excel file that lets you poke in your readings and it applies the corrections and gives you a graph of the response. Can't find where I originally downloaded it, but if you PM me your e-mail address, I can send it to you.

Nacken23

kuntasensei wrote: »

It's not that simple. The SPL meter's response actually rolls off as bass gets deeper, so you have to apply a correction chart. In other words, even with ruler-flat response, a 20Hz test tone will read 6dB lower than an 80Hz test tone on the SPL meter. See the correction values here: http://www.svsound.com/questions-faqs-rscomp.cfm

I have an Excel file that lets you poke in your readings and it applies the corrections and gives you a graph of the response. Can't find where I originally downloaded it, but if you PM me your e-mail address, I can send it to you.

Thanks for your reply yes please send me the file I will give my email address here- nacken23@yahoo.ie

Ron Temple

Home Theater Shack has excel spreadsheets for corrected values for various SPL meter models. Since it's an excel file I can't attach the one I use. PM me your email addy and I'll send it to you.

Ron

Nacken23

Ron Temple wrote: »

Home Theater Shack has excel spreadsheets for corrected values for various SPL meter models. Since it's an excel file I can't attach the one I use. PM me your email addy and I'll send it to you.

Ron

I got an excel file off another member but it would not work so yes pease send me your excel file my email is nacken23@yahoo.ie thanks

kuntasensei

The file opens up fine for me... Not sure why you can't open it, but the Shack was probably where I got it anyway.

20hz

kuntasensei wrote: »

Yes, 80Hz is the recommended crossover for THX spec'd systems (and also a good guideline for speakers in general). However, the LPF of LFE is NOT A CROSSOVER, it's a single filter that only affects the LFE channel (whereas crossovers consist of both a low pass and high pass filter).
From Chris Kyriakakis of Audyssey: "It's a filter that is applied to the content of the separate LFE track found in 5.1 content. That content is authored up to 120 Hz and so the only correct setting is 120 Hz." 'Nuff said.

I never found good sound w/lfe plug going to sub I have always used a electronic X/O , I am using a energy eac .

kuntasensei

20hz wrote: »

I never found good sound w/lfe plug going to sub I have always used a electronic X/O , I am using a energy eac .

If you're already using a crossover in the AVR when you set the crossover frequency for each channel, why would you use another one in-line to the subwoofer? Cascading filters = BAD! Not only does it reduce audio across the crossover range, it screws with the phase relation between the sub and the other speakers.

Keep in mind that when we talk about the LPF of LFE, we're only talking about filtering the LFE channel, not the redirected bass from the other channels as dictated by the individual channel crossovers. If you aren't running that at 120Hz, you're missing sound that the mixer intended you to hear, however minor (and seriously, it will mostly be harmonics... but they do lend deep bass a specific tone, without which you get nothing but rumble).

Nacken23

I have been reading about a sub EQ called ANTIMODE anyone got one or know if they are any good?
Can buy one on ebay for 240euro

http://cgi.ebay.ie/ANTIMODE-8033-Subwoofer-eq-Suits-REL-SVS-BK-Etc-/320671609501?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item4aa984729d#ht_2605wt_778

Nacken23

codyc1ark wrote: »

I turn them up on the AVR, but don't save the settings so it's... 'more correct?' when doing 2 channel . I did this after running Audyssey. I'm not sure if your AVR has the sub eq portion of Audyssey, but I don't think so. Let me restate - I only turn the sub up for movies, and leave it at the Audyssey's level for music. The only thing I could think to advise is a external sub eq, like the Velo SMS-1, I don't have one, but have heard geat things about an external sub eq, its on my short list as of right now. Maybe someone with a little more knowlage in this area can chime in, I wan't to make sure I'm not leading you down the wrong path.

-Cody

I ran audyssey again and then left the volume on the sub alone and used the sub level in the AVR to put it higher the bass is much better now alot less boomy :biggrin:. and Im sure it will get better the more I use it as I only have it a about a week.
Thanks for your advice

finfan

Nacken23 wrote: »

I ran audyssey again and then left the volume on the sub alone and used the sub level in the AVR to put it higher the bass is much better now alot less boomy :biggrin:. and Im sure it will get better the more I use it as I only have it a about a week.
Thanks for your advice

I have an Onkyo receiver too and my sub is too low. When I watch movies you can hardly hear the sub. What setting did you go in to raise the sub level on the receiver?

kuntasensei

finfan wrote: »

I have an Onkyo receiver too and my sub is too low. When I watch movies you can hardly hear the sub. What setting did you go in to raise the sub level on the receiver?

What are your crossovers set to in your 807? If you left them as Audyssey set them, odds are they are set too low. Go into the speaker settings and try using 80Hz on all channels, and see if that wakes your sub up a bit. If you just feel that the sub needs a boost, go to the levels in the same section of options and raise the sub up a bit. If it's bass in your mains that's lacking, try bumping up the bass in the tone controls, which only alters the sound of the L/R mains.

Nacken23

Problem solved :biggrin: I put the sub in the back corner I thought this would make the boominess even worse I tried it anyway let audyssey do its stuff and what a difference I played the gas station scene on Terminator Salvation :eek:before it sounded boomy now its amazing at any volume And with the sub now at the back near where I seat I can also feel the bass !!!

Thanks for everyones advice cant wait to try out some more movies :biggrin:

codyc1ark

Nacken23 wrote: »

Problem solved :biggrin: I put the sub in the back corner I thought this would make the boominess even worse I tried it anyway let audyssey do its stuff and what a difference I played the gas station scene on Terminator Salvation :eek:before it sounded boomy now its amazing at any volume And with the sub now at the back near where I seat I can also feel the bass !!!

Thanks for everyones advice cant wait to try out some more movies :biggrin:

Nice! I can't stress enough to check out avsforums subwoofer section, I'm fairly sure they have a sticky'd sub set-up thread, that'll help you with your placement if you have other options, but a lot of people pefer the near-field placement for HT (me included). Have you tried the subwoofer crawl? I had to have my ol lady help me, and she just fussed the whole time, calling me crazy and giving threats to commit me, but I guess I'm still here, am I?

Nacken23

codyc1ark wrote: »

Nice! I can't stress enough to check out avsforums subwoofer section, I'm fairly sure they have a sticky'd sub set-up thread, that'll help you with your placement if you have other options, but a lot of people pefer the near-field placement for HT (me included). Have you tried the subwoofer crawl? I had to have my ol lady help me, and she just fussed the whole time, calling me crazy and giving threats to commit me, but I guess I'm still here, am I?

Lol I tried that subwoofer crawl too but I locked the door so no one could see meI had to scream at everyone to be quiet when I ran audyssey but no one would listen to me:mad: but all the craziness was worth it in the end everything now sounds amazing

20hz

kuntasensei wrote: »

If you're already using a crossover in the AVR when you set the crossover frequency for each channel, why would you use another one in-line to the subwoofer? Cascading filters = BAD! Not only does it reduce audio across the crossover range, it screws with the phase relation between the sub and the other speakers

I am NOT using the LFE out at all , I have the 2way elec plugged into the the pre-out for the mains .
Yes I could use the lfe but the xo point is to high ?120? so I dont use that .
with the energy I run the subs to where I want and roll in the mains .
As for mains I use polk monitor 5's , basically its crossed over at 80 hz , so 80 and down goes to the subs and 80 and up goes to the polks .

kuntasensei

What AVR are you using, 20hz? Just wondering what AVR would use 120Hz crossover from the other channels by default, since most use 80Hz.

20hz

kuntasensei wrote: »

What AVR are you using, 20hz? Just wondering what AVR would use 120Hz crossover from the other channels by default, since most use 80Hz.

a sony ES 333 , if it is 80 its not a step slope , there is a lot of upper bass coming out w/it .
it seemed to drown out the deep bass .

kuntasensei

If you're talking about the STR-V333ES, you can adjust the digital crossovers in the receiver itself, eliminating the need for that EAC. Active crossovers work, but introduce phase issues that you really have to fine tune to get right. The digital crossovers in the AVR don't have that issue (assuming you have speaker distances set correctly), and the STR-V333ES appears to have selectable crossover points for each speaker in 10Hz increments, including a LPF for the LFE channel (which you should leave at 120Hz if you want it to properly reproduce the LFE channel). The channel crossovers default to 120Hz in that unit, so if that's what you have, try dropping them down below 80Hz, going subwoofer out only, and ditching the EAC.

Just sayin'... With the digital crossovers in AVRs being designed to avoid the issues of active crossovers, it seems kinda' strange that you would have to use one, especially if your AVR gives you that much control over them. If your AVR doesn't give you the ability to set the crossover points, I'd look to ditch that puppy the next time you feel a little upgradeitis set in. :biggrin:

20hz

kuntasensei wrote: »

If you're talking about the STR-V333ES, you can adjust the digital crossovers in the receiver itself, eliminating the need for that EAC. Active crossovers work, but introduce phase issues that you really have to fine tune to get right. The digital crossovers in the AVR don't have that issue (assuming you have speaker distances set correctly), and the STR-V333ES appears to have selectable crossover points for each speaker in 10Hz increments, including a LPF for the LFE channel (which you should leave at 120Hz if you want it to properly reproduce the LFE channel). The channel crossovers default to 120Hz in that unit, so if that's what you have, try dropping them down below 80Hz, going subwoofer out only, and ditching the EAC.

I had no idea it was adjustable (thanks) I will track that down in the manual asap .
the distances are set fine and the speakers are placed evenly, mains on each side of tv sub behind tv in the cornor (like a triangle) .
But will the sony avr X/O the mains (polk moniter 5's) so deep bass wont fry them ?
I looked its s SONY strda333ES (maybe 8 years old).

kuntasensei

Ah... yours is an older AVR that doesn't let you select the crossover point, meaning it probably uses an 80Hz crossover when you set each channel to SMALL. It will cross the mains over to the sub out at around 80Hz though, without any phase issues.

Do yourself a favor... Save up and get something newer that can handle all the new lossless codecs for Blu-ray and lets you select the crossover points. Older AVRs like yours tend to filter the LFE channel at the same crossover point as the other channels, meaning it's likely throwing out 80-120Hz bass in the LFE channel. Newer AVRs do their filtering before the redirected bass is summed so that you don't have that issue. Or if you're happy with the way it sounds, hey... Just use it!

20hz

yea its old I need a update , maybe I will get a unit w/built in audessy someday .
I have all center and rear on small Thanks for the help w/my avr .