need protocol advice

scottyboy76

you put something for sale on club polk, list for local sale.


Finally agree to ship to honorable well intentioned,fellow polkie who sends you 450 m.o.
380 for goods you are selling
60. for shipping
10 for extra packing supplys.

you actually spend 18 dollars for shipping co. reinforced single wall box, 32 feet of their bubble wrap and their pro packing service.
No insurance was bought,even though in one of many emails back and forth, it was mentioned moneys were being sent for ins., but math is as stated above.

As luck would have it, 2 binding posts on one of 5 units were damaged,still not sure if buyer will fix himself or is wanting to have a shop do it.

Want to do the right and customary thing by cp protocol, both partys, i believe are honorable and are just trying to feel their way through this.

bottom line, in one of emails, insurance was mentioned, but money sent did not provide for that, so no insurance was taken out.

Dennis Gardner

Insurance didn't break it, poor packing did. Now the ball is back in the seller's court to do the right thing, and I think you know that. We are all family here, and I'm sure the buyer will understand how things sometimes happen. Do the right thing.....good Karma is still to be had.

Can't tell by your post whether you are buyer/seller so no bad juju meant by my post.

CNWDI

In other news, CodyC1ark quoted me a very reasonable price that included shipping double-boxed, which ended up being bubble wrap around the (heavy) AVR in the inner box and then peanuts in the outer box--a reasonable combo. The outer box had obviously been smacked around, but the inner box was essentially pristine once I got it unearthed. The AVR was 100%, and all's right with the world. Now I just have to re-run the Audyssey setup since his speakers were definitely different from mine...

gdb

Never ship w/o insurance is my practice, no matter who has to pay for it.

Strong Bad

Edited...

Ya gotta get insurance when shipping things like that. I'm sure everyone will agree on that.

Lesson learned!

Dennis Gardner

The only really good packing for a heavy AVR/amp is the original dense block styro type that keeps the posts from contacting anything. Even this is sometimes not enough to keep something from contacting posts etc. in hard falls. I never depend on bubble wrap alone and peanuts aren't even considered for anything but the lightest of packages.

scottyboy76

I believe we can work this out, i believe there is shared blame,seller has never shipped anything, much less this type of thing.buyer chose fedex and suggested location to ship,and was sending money for ins.

Money was not sent for ins. but if more experienced, seller would have backtracked emails and keyed in on the importance of insurance,and contacted buyer, who surely would have provided more money.definitely a learning exp.

By the way, roughly, generally speaking, how much would 500 bucks ins. on a package be?

EndersShadow

scottyboy76 wrote: »

By the way, roughly, generally speaking, how much would 500 bucks ins. on a package be?

When I shipped 2 amps to JuanR I paid 2 bucks per 100 w/ UPS and the first 100 bucks was free.

I insured everything for I think 500-800 (number escapes me) since it was beyond cheap.

CNWDI

Strong Bad wrote: »

Edited...

Ya gotta get insurance when shipping things like that. I'm sure everyone will agree on that.

Lesson learned!

I've shipped Sun workstations with hard disks installed, etc, without insurance and without double boxing (not much more than bubble wrap/peanuts, and not the original "hard" foam blocks in a proper box). I was much more foolish then, and I got lucky.

Yes, I'd agree at this point that proper boxing/padding is required and insurance is highly recommended. No, I would *not* agree that insurance is always required even for 50 pound computers or AVRs in a single cardboard box. The big question is, "who is at risk, and for how much?" And the smart answer to that is usually going to be (as was noted above) that _someone_ needs to pay for insurance.

Right now if I go into the shipping interface on FedEx.com, and try to ship a 50# package from here to (for example) Millington TN with a volume of 24"x24"x24", it quotes me $44 with a value of $500 for the package...or $40 with a value of $5. To me, no matter who pays for it that $4 is money well spent. YMMV, as always.

stuwee

scottyboy, you didn't use 'the stuwee method'?? http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120053&highlight=stuwee+method

Always do that and get insurance, hindsight now. Glad you guys are working it out

codyc1ark

I never ship without insurance, and I've never quoted that as an added expense. I expect that you'll add the insurance on the item, and I'd do the same. Why take the chance? I guess what I'm trying to say is that insurance is a normal expense included in the shipping cost. Doesn't both UPS and FE supply a base insurance of $100.00? Could you claim the binding posts under this policy?

heiney9

It's on you to make it right, you obviously didn't pack it correctly. I ALWAYS include insurance in the price, there is no option for the buyer when I sell. Also be aware just because you buy insurance doesn't automatically mean it's covered. YOU have to pack according to the carrier's guidelines, if you don't you're out.

The seller (YOU) is the one with the burden here because 1) your the seller 2) you did the packing 3) you gave the buyer the insurance option. Just because they declined doesn't mean it's on them.

Do the right thing and let this be a learning experience.

H9

heiney9

scottyboy76 wrote: »

i believe there is shared blame,seller has never shipped anything, much less this type of thing.buyer chose fedex and suggested location to ship,and was sending money for ins.

No shared blame at all, the burden is on the seller, end of story

scottyboy76 wrote: »

By the way, roughly, generally speaking, how much would 500 bucks ins. on a package be?

Probably no more than $5-7. But as I said in my earlier post, you can buy all the insurance you want. If YOU (the shipper) fail to follow their shipping guidelines you will NOT be reimbursed. You can't buy insurance and then pack it shoddily and expect them to pay up. You also can't pack it like you THINK it will be safe. The carriers have very specific shipping guidelines you need to follow to the letter in order to get a claim paid if one arises.

H9

WilliamM2

I ship things without insurance all the time, as long as the value is under $1K or so. But I package well enough that my only concern is that they will lose it. Never had an item I've packaged damaged.

But if something ever does happen, it will be my responsibility to make it right. And even if there were insurance, I sure wouldn't make the buyer wait for the claim payoff to make it right. That can take months.

scottyboy76

Lesson learned,will speak to the guy that owns the shipping place,but only between me and him, since he is the one who repacked it for shipping, but as i have stated, will work with buyer to get binding posts repaired, since, as you have said,on this forum, the seller is held to bear, if anything arrives damaged, and had i been more experienced with shipping, i would have had insurance.

Also, will see if fed ex will cover minor expense of posts with the first 100 dollar insurance, especially since the owner of shop packed, but i will make any reasonable payment for repair of posts, no matter if they do or dont.

Wanted to know the opinions and customs of this site, you have provided that concerning damage in shipping, as well as valuable info regarding insuring packages no matter what.We all have to learn as we go.
Thank you all, as far as im concerned, the damage issue has been settled.

You will hear no more from me on this forum concerning the damaged amp, and again, my heartfelt thanks for your good advice.

P.S. as far as the stuwee method, I was gonna do that, I had the amps in office paper boxes, was stopping by the packing place just to get an idea of price for shipping size, weight etc. of those actual boxes, that would then be packed into a larger peanut filled box, as opposed to just giving hime weight of amps and app. size.

The owner said, hang on, got out huge roll of bubble wrap,began wrapping each amp several times, reinforcing the box and did not charge me much more than foam would have cost.


Now i know, as good as it looked,there were better ways, and in the future, will def. use diff. materials, but just to address the question stuwee asked.

heiney9

If a bonafide Pack n Ship store packed this for you, I'd certainly have a conversation with them about the damage. You failed to mention that until now. If you paid them to pack and ship it for you, they are liable. Based on your description, I'm not sure if they just assisted you by giving you some scrap packing material for YOU to pack it, or if you paid them to pack it.

If you paid them, they are responsible for the first $100 even if you didn't buy add'l insurance.

H9

scottyboy76

right in my first post, it says i paid for reinforced box, 32 feet of bubble wrap and their pro packing service.

We will be going to town right now, and will def. be taking this up with him, thanks again guys.

heiney9

Talking in 3rd person, like you started out is very confusing.

If you paid them to pack it, they should be responsible, that's why you pay 50-60% more at a pack -n- ship place. Read the fine print on your receipt and definitely talk to the owner.

H9

WilliamM2

scottyboy76 wrote: »

Also, will see if fed ex will cover minor expense of posts with the first 100 dollar insurance, especially since the owner of shop packed, but i will make any reasonable payment for repair of posts, no matter if they do or dont.

Good luck. I bought a Marantz MM9000 in the flea market here. Very poorly packaged (shipped in a plain box with no packing material). Mine also had damaged biding posts, broken right off. Looked like an easy fix, but Marantz refused to sell me the parts. They said you had to be an authorized service center to purchase them.

scottyboy76

In my 53 years of living, i fully expect crap from anyone for anything that involves money and responsibility, but we will see, seems like a great guy, and ex military.

How it went down, brought in boxes, with amps in them with my bubble wrap, wanted him to fill office paper boxes with his peanuts, then put those boxes into larger peanut filled box, and ship it, basically double boxing.

While i was talking to two soldiers from recruiting office next door who were just hanging out, the owner says wait a minute, then starts mummifying amps in bubble wrap, and reinforces his big box and seals it.

Obviously, not good enough as it turns out,but we will have it out in a little bit. Fingers crossed.

I still think we jerky and i will work this out, each give a little, not about binding posts but about new rotten egg smell from caps that never smelled in our living room or bedroom, but now do at his place.

Just concerned that authorized marantz service center, which i cant afford to take my gear to, is going to break my back in cost to replace caps that never gave me any probs, but can believe might be aging and showing some signs of wear.

Just concerned that on my disability check income, this gear i sold honestly, will now be upgraded professionally with my money, with no previous heads up or inquiry.

Just bringing that up to point out there are 2 separate issues, damaged binding posts in shipping i want to take resp. for, and caps that were functioning fine, and may show normal wear and tear.

gdb

It might be cheaper for you in the long run to "void" the sale, refund the buyer, get your gear back home, have a drink and try to forget it ever happened. It sounds to me like the unit must have suffered some inertia shock that probably stressed the internals too. They must have been very rough on that package.:frown:

inspiredsports

The bottom line is that if as a seller you paid for the shipping fee (you have the shipping payment receipt), you own the damage.

If somehow the buyer paid your for the goods, and then paid the shipping out of his own pocket or sent a shipping label (buyer has shipping payment receipt), buyer owns the damage.

inspiredsports

gdb wrote: »

. . . they must have been very rough on that package. :frown:

Shippers always seem to have a "Murphy's Law" knack for knowing which packages to destroy (those that are high value shipped without insurance).

scottyboy76

I Paid at time of shipping, but buyer had included that amount along with payment for goods.In other words, when i agreed to sell to a non local buyer, which i did not want to do, and stated so, i told buyer he was to pay for and set up the preferred shipper, find out costs to him, tell me where locally, i was to take the goods, and aftyer receiving his payments and allowing for time for money order to clear bank, would ship them where he wanted, and the way he wanted.

Buyer said money would be sent for insurance, but was not.

Not a lot of money for insurance,but i told the buyer he was responsible for the shipping point somewhere near me, which he did, figuring out cost of shipping, which he did, sending a m.o. for goods and shipping, which he did, and he mentioned money would be sent for insuring to 500 dollars, which he did not.

He did send a prearranged extra ten dollars for spray foam insulation, because he declined paying to have the shipper pack it, his exact words in his email, that can get a little pricey.

I then put 8 dollars of my own money with that 10 dollars to have the shipper pack it professionally, anyway.

Now i am not only gladly sending buyer 100 dollars for damaged amp as an act of good faith even though no money was provided for ins.,and i paid for professional packing, he now says i should pay for upgrading the capacitors in these 10 to 12 year old amps, even though no questions were asked nor claims were made except these amps had operated perfectly since i have owned them.

Cant put it much clearer than that.

inspiredsports

scottyboy76 wrote: »

I Paid at time of shipping, but buyer had included that amount along with payment for goods.In other words, when i agreed to sell to a non local buyer, which i did not want to do, and stated so, i told buyer he was to pay for and set up the preferred shipper, find out costs to him, tell me where locally, i was to take the goods, and aftyer receiving his payments and allowing for time for money order to clear bank, would ship them where he wanted, and the way he wanted.

Buyer said money would be sent for insurance, but was not.

Not a lot of money for insurance,but i told the buyer he was responsible for the shipping point somewhere near me, which he did, figuring out cost of shipping, which he did, sending a m.o. for goods and shipping, which he did, and he mentioned money would be sent for insuring to 500 dollars, which he did not.

He did send a prearranged extra ten dollars for spray foam insulation, because he declined paying to have the shipper pack it, his exact words in his email, that can get a little pricey.

I then put 8 dollars of my own money with that 10 dollars to have the shipper pack it professionally, anyway.

Now i am not only gladly sending buyer 100 dollars for damaged amp as an act of good faith even though no money was provided for ins.,and i paid for professional packing, he now says i should pay for upgrading the capacitors in these 10 to 12 year old amps, even though no questions were asked nor claims were made except these amps had operated perfectly since i have owned them.

Cant put it much clearer than that.

With that more detailed explanation, the buyer really was paying the shipping bill and shipping was on his dime. From your accounting of events, I think the case can be made that he owned the items at the shipping point and he/she was effectively the shipper with you acting as his/her agent.

It seems the packing company should help pay for the damages.

If the buyer is requesting new capacitors at your expense, the buyer should be shot.

Dennis Gardner

Since it keeps getting messier, I would offer full refund and pay to have them shipped back. Chalk it up to a lesson learned. God forbid those caps explode and you owe for his burned down house.....:rolleyes:

kevhed72

The people at some of the pack/ship stores are clueless. I had one seller have the UPS store pack an amp. They wrapped it in styrofoam and single boxed it....amp showed up with 2 dented fins.

Unless you work in the industry, you have no idea the abuse some boxes take. I highly advise people to put orientation arrow and "FRAGILE" stickers on boxes, due carriers actually are supposed to load per the arrows.

Conradicles

"humpty dumpty was pushed"
Think about that in your situation you have going on now...

Hope y'all get it worked out.

WilliamM2

inspiredsports wrote: »

With that more detailed explanation, the buyer really was paying the shipping bill and shipping was on his dime. From your accounting of events, I think the case can be made that he owned the items at the shipping point and he/she was effectively the shipper with you acting as his/her agent.

I don't think so. The buyer always pays shipping, one way or another. Whether it's included in the price or charged separately. It's up to the seller to make sure it's packed right, and arrives in good condition. I would never trust anyone else to pack something I'm selling.

Since it keeps getting messier, I would offer full refund and pay to have them shipped back. Chalk it up to a lesson learned.

Probably the easiest solution. May even get the shipping company to refund shipping costs, since they packed it.

scottyboy76

Some responses are just weird, no matter how clearly and detailed the xplanation i give.

I am being asked to upgrade caps to new factory fresh cond, although no discussion before seller and certainly no guarantees of internal components future life span expectations.

And, yes, the buyer has steadfastly demanded i either pay a marantz service center to upgrade buging caps, and apparently some leaky caps on 10-12 year old amps that were advertised at 80 bucks apiece.

his offer is that i, after shipping 5 FLAWLESSLY performing amps, apparently some with bulging or leaking caps, i will have to take his word on that, as i was not asked about by buyer,nor did i even know which part to check if asked,will accept amps back, 3 of which, according to him, are not working now, and several have a rotten egg smell, after a posting by someone that that smell would be another clue that caps were bad.

So to summarize, one more time, I have emailed a generous offer that would leave him with three working amps for an eventual purchase amount of 80 dollars apiece, which was the price agreed on to begin with.

he will keep the 2 supposedly non working amps, and would avoid app. 120 dollars in shipping costs, and no amps whatsoever.

By any standards, fair, also, anyone who feels obligated to replace aging but working internal components of fairly sold gear at the buyers whim, please let me know.

I will keep an eagle eye out for any goods you have for sale, because i would like for you to also pay to upgrade to factory fresh any aging components i point out and demand you to replace, JUST AS I AM BEING ASKED TO DO>

aviator

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

The only really good packing for a heavy AVR/amp is the original dense block styro type that keeps the posts from contacting anything. Even this is sometimes not enough to keep something from contacting posts etc. in hard falls. I never depend on bubble wrap alone and peanuts aren't even considered for anything but the lightest of packages.

Agree with the above.

Picked up amp today with repair bill of $270 due UPS damage to posts and case. It was double boxed and looked like it was packed very well, but not with original styrofoams. The heavier it is, the easier it is to bust it, with little apparent damage to the exterior box.

It was a 2 week effort of seller, buyer and repair shop to get UPS to cough up for the repairs. There were at least 10 different UPS folks involved in this goat rope.