Replace the cabinet speaker wire?

Esreuter

Hey forum,

Sorry i post so many questions and that they are long winded. Thank you all for sticking it out, and all your help and advice, i have grown in my time here.

I had a thought recently, on a trip into my monitor cabinets.

I noticed that the wires from the x-overs to the drivers is of small gauge.

well i was wondering if there would be any gains by replacing those wires with a larger gauge, say even to match my outer cables of 10awg.

now, i must take a learning opportunity here, it seems no matter what when the power reaches the driver it is going to go into small metal, perhaps this is the point for having all the power? so that there is enough juice to make it thru the small wires inside and the small wires of the driver?
just curious, because i noticed it seems like electricity is like computers, your only as fast as your slowest part.

So whats your thoughts on this? any of you done this and noticed gains in sound or clarity? or am i just barking up the wrong tree?

thank you in advance

ESR:biggrin::biggrin:

treitz3

Small to considerable gains have been had from users who have redone the internal wiring within their speakers. If you have the know how? Try it, by all means.

dorokusai

I've not found it beneficial but would probably do it when I'm on my last pair of speakers, that I plan to keep for a long time. That's when I'll go all out.

treitz3

Yeah right, like that'll ever happen Mark. I'm chuckling over here at that one.

"My last pair of speakers"... :biggrin:

dorokusai

treitz3 wrote: »

Yeah right, like that'll ever happen Mark. I'm chuckling over here at that one.

"My last pair of speakers"... :biggrin:

I know, :biggrin: but I know what they'll be and have for a long time. I just plan on playing as much as possible until then, especially with the LSiM that will be here soon.

treitz3

I hear ya'. Carry on and have fun along the way.

gp4jesus

Sorry for prefacing my answer w/this: you have "opened a can of worms" wider than the Grand Canyon & deeper than the Mariannes trench.

IMHO: DO IT!

Pardon my longwindedness...

This topic of wire, gage/quality, I find the most controversial topic in audio. You can find a [closed] thread on diyaudio.com w/nearly 15K replies!

My EXPERIENCE on wire is simple: BIGGER IS BETTER!! Gage is King*, purity, the Queen**. Everything else are members of their court.
* especially for bass ** mids and especially highs

I've told these stories before; rarely any rebuttals.

Experience 1: a pair of speakers that I paid $650 in 1980. About 6 months after I got them I rewired them w/some leftover* 12 ga Monster Cable & upgraded to 5-way binding posts. Did one cabinet; connected it to my NAD 45W/ch, the other speaker still stock. Had to adjust balance ctrl between 10 & 11 o'clock to "balance" the modest volume setting. When I rewired the other speaker the "balance problem" went away.
* same between amp & speakers

Experience 2: 10 years later, built a pair of subs with 2 12s in each, one driver daisy-chained to the other. I hard wired them each w/about 12' of 10 ga Monster cable. I EXO'd @ 110 hz, drove them w/a Belles 1 power amp. 6 months later I "rewired" them. That is, I bi-wired them w/wire now half the original length. Thats right-twice as thick, half as long. Had to make a signifcant change to XO LP output setting because EVERYTHING sounded fat & heavy.

Experience 2 fortified my belief in Experience 1. I plan to rewire all my HT speakers given time, correctly bi-amp the center & surrounds; tri-amp the LR channels. I'll visit another time w/ my experience with ICs.

So anyone that preaches wire size doesn't matter or rewiring speakers is a waste because of some thinner wire etc in the XO components, plan to take 31 years to change my mind! And it will be a hard sell!

2 weekends ago I rewired the subs*, mid**, & MT feed*** of one of my RTi A7s. Just one for easy comparison & to easily confirm [for those that scoff or would ask] that I knew I wasn't wasting my time. Using familiar instrumental tracks, I've deterimined the rewired channel has a more percussive low-end.
* 8 gage
** 14 gage
***12 gage

Shortly I will post pics* in a new thread along with RTA readings. Then do the other channel. I have some other mods in mind that I will post pics as I go.
* old & new wiring

DO IT!

Let the flameouts begin!

cheers

fbm211

The neotech occ copper teflon wire sonic craft sells is a great choice IMO.
Or that real good furutech alpha hook up wire.

I think it would be good to wire the binding posts to the xover with heavy 12 or 14 guage but I would keep the xover to drivers around the same ga of the original design.>>16ga for mine.

Esreuter

sounds like fun.

i will watch your photos to see how things are going. i cant do anything till after the move but i am itching for a project.

need something to do, know what i mean?

ESR:biggrin::biggrin:

zingo

I am about to do a rewire myself as the internal wiring my Klipsch speakers is not great stuff. I'm not sure if I'll get gains from the project, but at least my wiring will match my upgraded crossovers.

One thing to keep in mind is the weight of larger gauge wire. The contact tabs for most tweeters and some woofers are not large and cannot beard much weight. Make sure that you secure your new wiring so that it is connected to the driver, but not "hanging from" the driver.

gp4jesus

zingo wrote: »

One thing to keep in mind is the weight of larger gauge wire. The contact tabs for most tweeters and some woofers are not large and cannot beard much weight. Make sure that you secure your new wiring so that it is connected to the driver, but not "hanging from" the driver.

Good stuff!

gp4jesus

An important omission:

gp4jesus wrote: »

...Using familiar instrumental tracks, I've deterimined the rewired channel has a more percussive low-end.

The modded channel has just the subs for the bottom 2-3 octaves. The unmodded one has the mid helping out.

F1nut

BIGGER IS BETTER!! Gage is King*, purity, the Queen**. Everything else are members of their court.

There is far more to wire than the gauge size.

dorokusai

Gp4jesus....relax dude, take your meds. If anything, you found a good home to talk about improvements but there's no need to start preaching. I'm not doubting what you've done and the benefits, just not everyone has had the same results. You're not the only one who's done this @ Club Polk.

Esreuter

Ha!!

you guys ever hear of Plato? Aristotle? Socrates?

Morons!

ESR= ruler of club polk.

Dizzying intellect you say? Wait till i get going!

No no no, i kid, i kid. I wish i could be king but alas, just a serf, well a serf in training because i am so new to this.

Now let me ask this, do any of you have any suggested reading for all this wiring? and also where can a guy get a hold of some dead or dying\no longer cared about x overs for practice mods?

the reading i would like to see is about all the stuff on a xover, the caps, those coils of wires, resistor versus capacitors ect, what does what and where and why. how each thing affects the sound, i am truly in the dark when you guys say "yeah just modded the xover for some lsi 15's put on some sonic caps at 5.75 ohms instead of the stock 2.5 ohms, ppppfffft 2.5 ohms? who designed these? 4 monkeys and ben affleck?"

all i can do at that moment is nod and marvel at the photos.

any who, anything you can suggest to help me learn would be great, both paperback and online text is welcome.

Lets also keep talking about the wires in the cabinet too.

thank you ll for your input.

ESR

dorokusai

I think you might need to lay off the coffee grounds.

Outfitter03

Here is one online lesson to start with.

http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/

Depends on the amount of time you want to spend on this. At least going through a course like this will give you some of the vocabulary so you will know the difference between the coiled wire thingy and the yellow colored battery thingy and that rectangular white thingy.

Crossovers are actually fairly simple circuits with usually no more than 10 components. Trying to learn circuit theory on your own for items like receivers or solid state amplifiers would be a big challenge. But as a user it is always good to at least know what the different components look like, how to read their values and a general idea of what the component's properties are. The interrelationships are where things start getting much more difficult.

I believe that learning is always good! I sure have learned a thing or two since I started on this site about a year ago!

Face

dorokusai wrote: »

I think you might need to lay off the coffee grounds.

It appears the Ridalin generation is now old enough to post on CP.

skrol

When I planned out the upgrades to my RTA11TL's, I consulted the former Polk engineer who voiced them. He was good with upgrading caps and resistors but cautioned changing ESR of inductors and internal wiring. It is part of the voicing of the speaker.

Esreuter

So i want to thank outfitter for the read.

i can now identify the parts of a xover and have a general working knowledge of what each one does.

dont ask about the math or anything too deeper than, a resistor resists ect.

now i have a mod question, when you are modding x overs, i noticed some guys talk about having 10watt resistors and replacing them with 12 watters.

first question is, when modifying xovers are you simply replacing the stock components for better quality components of the same specs? like the 10 watt resistor is replaced with a 10 watt.

or if not, how do you reach your conclusions on what resistor wattage to use?
i know i just started reading and learn but i wanted to put that question out there to build up a knowledge base.

thanks a bunch all of you:biggrin::biggrin:

ESR

nspindel

With resistors, the key measurement to match is the resistance (sounds obvious, but....) which is measured in ohms. The wattage of the resistor tells you how much power the resistor can handle. Replacing the resistor with one of a higher wattage rating just means that the resistor can handle more power if necessary. More headroom, so to speak.

Think of it this way - you have two different three lane highways. One is built on 4 inches of asphalt, the other is built with 10 inches of asphalt. This doesn't make any difference as far as the traffic on the road, but which one is going to start developing cracks in the asphalt soonest?

MNmike

Of course the larger current capable resistor may be physically larger.

I went higher watt capacity on RTA12b due to seeing heating issues on the original resistor.

When I replace key components I usually go higher in quality and tolerance.

aviator

Outfitter03 wrote: »

Here is one online lesson to start with.

http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/

I'm glad you posted that. Thanks.

Esreuter

yeah its a great read.

for me, i got lost in the advanced mathematical computations and formulas, but i think i got the jist of AC/DC theory. and what the components for our x overs do.

i have to admit, after reading that lesson, and then learning more about "voicing" a speaker, i think it is best to remain with the stock or same gauge cables in the cabinet, as to not upset the balance of x over and sounds of the drivers.

As i understand it, you would be wasting your efforts if you make the guage larger after the x over, but with changing resistance and changing the voice of the driver, one would have to compensate thru other components to keep everything in balance. so it seems you spend money to get large guage cable in your cabinet, add the proper components to get back to the original intentions of the speaker designer, and you have a larger guage cable with the same amount of LCR as the smaller guage to start with.

NOW, i might be totally wrong, that was just a pattern i noticed thru my recent leanings.

But i must ask this, as we change and upgrade components on or x overs, are we not re voicing the speakers anyways? even though you are matching the uf of the caps, since the new ones are of better quality their ability to function is much better and thus changes the voice of the speaker? but then again, perhaps everything stays in balance, because, would you only change one cap? i haven't seen that on any of the mods here, changing all the caps would effectively balance the system out again, i guess. your thoughts?

ESR:biggrin::biggrin:

VR3

I replaced mine with DH Labs T-14 over the stock 20 awg cable and I noticed a decent difference with bass.

gp4jesus

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

I replaced mine with DH Labs T-14 over the stock 20 awg cable and I noticed a decent difference with bass.

V,
Sounds like you're a convert! Do the same for any future 'A6 or 'A7* XO upgrades someone sends you.
* Mid & subs

newbie308

When I rebuilt my SDA1A's I replaced all of the internal wiring. This was mostly due to the awful hack job done by a prior owner! I replaced the 18ga wires with 14ga silver plated oxygen free solid conductor long grain copper. As mentioned in an earlier post, I did the mods on one cabinet at a time and the difference was remarkable! The stock wired cabinet sounded like someone tossed a thick wool blanket infront of the speakers.

One issue with larger than stock wiring is that you will need to drill out the holes on your crossover for the larger diameter wire to fit through. That is why I chose 14ga rather than something larger. If I didn't like the sound with the replacement wire I wanted to be able to reverse the mods, and I don't like the idea of soldering 18ga wire into a hole large enough to fit 10 or 12ga. Annother issue with heavy wire is that it tends to pull on the speaker connectors more. Those 1/8" wide 0.030" thick tweeter spades won't tolerate that for long.

Esreuter

I like to hear all of this,

I am going to replace the internal wire, i have decided. nothing epic, 14awg.

I have to wait a bit, till after our relocation.

i plan to do this as i modify the xo's, only thing is of course i will notice more after the caps and resistors, it will be tough to single out the benifit of the wire.

but i want to do it all at once and get the moretite on and stop going in and out of the cabinets. give em a rest!

ESR:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

gp4jesus

Consider this alternative to dynamat or mortite:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115762

F1nut

The stock chassis wire in all of the SDA's that I have seen is 16 gauge, tinned stranded copper. It is decent enough wire that I don't feel the need to change it.

F1nut

gp4jesus wrote: »

Consider this alternative to dynamat or mortite:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115762

You seem confused as to what purpose the different materials are used for. Dynamat is used for damping the steel baskets, you do not use it for gasket sealing.

Mortite or the foam are used for sealing, not damping.