Twitter definition on M70s with mid-level Onkyo

ddkalfa

Hi, first of all, sorry if the question is a bit basic, and let me say I'm far from being an audiofile, or having the ears for it.

I have a Polk 5.1 system where the fronts are Monitor 70s, all driven by an Onkyo RC-180.

Even though it's 5.1, I mostly use it for music, and in Stereo mode (only using fronts and subwoofer - crossover at 100hz). I'm trying to verify the overall quality of sound of my system. The problem is I don't have much of a reference (this is my first "real" sound system).

I noticed that when listening to music at "party level" volumes - around -15db in relative volume scale (equivalent to 67 at 0-100 scale), you can hear that the "s" of the singing comes out more like "shh", and it becomes a bit louder than the other "letters". On the low frequency side I feel it sounds great, even without the sub, but it's on the high frequencies where I feel it's a bit "uncomfortable" to the ears ...

Question is:

- Is this volume too high for this receiver and this speakers? Am I damaging the tweeter at this level?
- Or maybe this is a question of quality of the source (mainly mp3, connected through HDMI), and the limitation is more on the source rather than on the real capabilities of my system?

Since I know many of the people here also have the Onkyo RC-180, or the RC270 (which should have around the same power than the 180, if not a bit less), I wonder what is your perception of your system's sound quality at these volume levels, and also what is your perception overall.

Upstatemax

I have been learning over the last few years how important the source is...

Try at least some cd's and see if that helps at all.

ddkalfa

Upstatemax wrote: »

I have been learning over the last few years how important the source is...

Try at least some cd's and see if that helps at all.

Great, thanks everyone for the input. I did try a DVD, and it does sound a bit better at -15db. At about 0db (reference level), it starts to lose definition again, so I guess that is the system's limit. Anyway that level is just stupidly loud.

Thing is the only situation when you really want it loud is when having parties, and for that matter you're really dependant on mp3s these days ...

Anyway, I guess I just need to give up the idea of having a full sounding discotheque at my own house :biggrin:

Which brings me to another question, when bringing the volume to "normal" levels (-25db to -30db), it sounds very clear to me. What am I missing that a Lsi speaker would give me that the M70 is not? Is it really noticeable at normal listening levels?

I know this might be hard to explain in words, anyway was just curious what it would sound like ...

slammin86

I initially bought monitor 70's CS2 center, and monitor 30 surrounds. I paired them with with an onkyo RC270. It sounded OK, but I was not blown away like expected. I enjoyed the system for a bit while deciding my next move and researching amps.

A decent deal popped up on audiogon for an acurus A3-200 (200 watt x 3 channel) amp and I took it. This amp is from the early 90's but is a powerhouse. I have it on my M70's and CS2 and it made the system come alive. More defined bass, better imaging, clearer sound, more volume, yadda yadda yadda.

Outfitter03

The Monitor 70s are definitely not discotheque type speakers but most of us like to listen to music loud, at least once in a while. Too long at high levels or too loud will cause long term damage to your hearing but it is no fun worrying about turning up the speakers once in a while and having them fail.

I also have monitor 70's and have a Parasound HCA-1200mkii high current amp. I do not hear any distortion when raising the volume levels. Having a better source has helped a lot. Currently I have a Denon 2910 which I bought off this forum for a reasonable price. The power amp IMO has improved the sound quality both at low levels as well as high. Low level listening on my system is -30 to -35 on my scale. -25 to -20 db is standard listening and anything below -20 is loud.

Without adequate power for the volume level, the speakers are not being fed a good signal which is called Clipping. Here is a link on circuits intentionally designed to clip signals http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_3/6.html. Music is a more complex wave form but the result ends up being the same as for a sine wave. For the bigger voltage excursions (Peaks) the top of the waveform is "clipped" off making a square or right angle. The flat portion of the square wave becomes a high level DC output that can both overheat your amp or over current your drivers. The tweeter is most susceptible component and will be what goes out first. There is damage being done which is cumulative when operating this way.

Picture of clipped audio waveform:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/crufty/2719509633/

cdn5003

In general party level volumes require separate amplification. Your receiver has pre outputs so you could easily add an amplifier to the front two monitor 70's for music. This would allow them to play much louder without distortion and sound much better overall.

You are probably not damaging the tweeter playing at that level, I noticed the same thing with monitor 50's when I had them on an Onkyo mid level avr, they get bright when you really start to turn them up.

If the source is bad then you are getting garbage in, garbage out.

Lsi's and Monitor's are worlds apart. Lsi speakers outperform them in every way at every volume level. The tweeter in the Lsi line is completely different, much more accurate and less fatiguing. You have to have heard them to understand.

I would recommend getting a powerful amp for the 70's to see if it solves your problem. If it is still too bright for your taste at higher volume look at some other speakers, skip Rti's and go for Lsi. Rti's are a step up from Monitors but can be bright.

ddkalfa

slammin86 wrote: »

I initially bought monitor 70's CS2 center, and monitor 30 surrounds. I paired them with with an onkyo RC270. It sounded OK, but I was not blown away like expected. I enjoyed the system for a bit while deciding my next move and researching amps.

A decent deal popped up on audiogon for an acurus A3-200 (200 watt x 3 channel) amp and I took it. This amp is from the early 90's but is a powerhouse. I have it on my M70's and CS2 and it made the system come alive. More defined bass, better imaging, clearer sound, more volume, yadda yadda yadda.

That's exactly my feeling, I think my system sounds great, but I'm not blown away. So maybe I should start considering an amp down the road .. Although I'll definetly try to test one before buying, as I want to see if I can notice the difference or not ..

Anyway thanks for the replies everyone, from what I can conclude is:

- I could try to improve my source music. I downloaded some FLAC music, and listened to them "side by side" with mp3 counterpart. FLAC does sound better, although I can only classify the difference as "marginal", and that is definetly not going to make me strive for the (almost impossible) task of replacing my library for FLAC. I have also concluded that my ears are not as refined as many other here on this forum :biggrin:

- My system's current limitation seems to be more on the power side than on speaker side. Having said that, I'll try to "audition" an amp on my system and see the results. If the difference is similar to MP3 vs FLAC comparison, i.e. marginal difference, I'm definetly not spending the extra $$$. If it gets me to finally be "blown away" with the sound, than well my pocket should be prepared :biggrin:

Thanks everyone for all help, much appreciated.

cnh

There are people here who've been at this hobby for decades and still wouldn't be able to say they are 'blown' away after spending thousands and thousands searching for the 'right' synergy?

I like my systems but I'm not blown away by them yet. It's like Brock put it in a recent post on his search for the 'right' tubes...like searching for 'the Holy Grail'. So I'd say don't give up looking but don't expect to find it without some time and effort...?

The important thing is that you 'enjoy' the journey and have fun along the way.

Good Luck!

cnh

Lietuvis91

One thing i just recently discovered with my monitor towers is that raising them off the ground a foot or so makes them sound better. I guess it puts the drivers closer to ear level and you hear a fuller range of sound. This helped with brighness in my case. So get a box or a stool and raise the speaker some as a test, might make a difference.

67jason

Lietuvis91 wrote: »

One thing i just recently discovered with my monitor towers is that raising them off the ground a foot or so makes them sound better. I guess it puts the drivers closer to ear level and you hear a fuller range of sound. This helped with brighness in my case. So get a box or a stool and raise the speaker some as a test, might make a difference.

Funny you mention that. I just raised my 70s by stacking them on top of my 505's and let me tell you the difference is amazing. I'm not sure that I'm going to keep the 505s where they are yet. I had them both stacked in the corner and as an experiment I moved them under the mains. The base isn't the same, I preferred them where they were, but the 70s really sound amazing raised off the floor like they are.

F1nut

ddkalfa wrote: »

That's exactly my feeling, I think my system sounds great, but I'm not blown away. So maybe I should start considering an amp down the road .. Although I'll definetly try to test one before buying, as I want to see if I can notice the difference or not ..

Anyway thanks for the replies everyone, from what I can conclude is:

- I could try to improve my source music. I downloaded some FLAC music, and listened to them "side by side" with mp3 counterpart. FLAC does sound better, although I can only classify the difference as "marginal", and that is definetly not going to make me strive for the (almost impossible) task of replacing my library for FLAC. I have also concluded that my ears are not as refined as many other here on this forum :biggrin:

- My system's current limitation seems to be more on the power side than on speaker side. Having said that, I'll try to "audition" an amp on my system and see the results. If the difference is similar to MP3 vs FLAC comparison, i.e. marginal difference, I'm definetly not spending the extra $$$. If it gets me to finally be "blown away" with the sound, than well my pocket should be prepared :biggrin:

Thanks everyone for all help, much appreciated.

Everything matters when it comes to audio and a lot of it consists of marginal improvements. You've got a basic entry level HT rig now that you can build as money permits. The next step is to improve your source. If you're stuck on downloads, etc. then you need to get a decent DAC before anything else.

Lietuvis91

67jason wrote: »

Funny you mention that. I just raised my 70s by stacking them on top of my 505's and let me tell you the difference is amazing. I'm not sure that I'm going to keep the 505s where they are yet. I had them both stacked in the corner and as an experiment I moved them under the mains. The base isn't the same, I preferred them where they were, but the 70s really sound amazing raised off the floor like they are.

good deal, glad you cofirmed my observation. At one point, I was thinking I'm just hearing "what I want to hear" lol! But you're right, imaging got way better with the speaker raised.

I seriously suggest the OP tries this approach.

ddkalfa

Lietuvis91 wrote: »

good deal, glad you cofirmed my observation. At one point, I was thinking I'm just hearing "what I want to hear" lol! But you're right, imaging got way better with the speaker raised.

I seriously suggest the OP tries this approach.

I could try that, although logistics might be a bit difficult .. Anyway thanks everyone for the inputs!

ddkalfa

F1nut wrote: »

Everything matters when it comes to audio and a lot of it consists of marginal improvements. You've got a basic entry level HT rig now that you can build as money permits. The next step is to improve your source. If you're stuck on downloads, etc. then you need to get a decent DAC before anything else.

I see that .. It seems that the curve of price x benefit starts to get really really steep after a certain point .. Anyway I'm not willing to spend much more, unless it's on an amp, and if I can tell a difference ..

F1nut

Good luck, you're going to need it.

pdxfj

Just to re-enforce others here..

I was running M70's and the Onkyo 608. While things sounded ok I was never happy with the way things were. I then upgraded to the 808 and an external 5ch amp. This really brought the speakers to life.

Nice clean sound and all the harshness was gone.

Although I'll have to try raising my M70's now and see how that turns out.. interesting new experiment...