Looking for Rear L/R Surrounds, Any Advice

bglinkerman

I'm in the processes of purchasing some home theater systems. I have picked out the following so far:

Center: Polk Audio CS20 Black Center Speaker Each
Front L/R: Polk Audio Monitor70 Series II Floorstanding Loudspeaker

I'm trying to figure out what to get for the rear surrounds. Since there is not nearly as much sound coming out of the rear speakers as the front ones I didn't feel it was necessary to get another set of Monitor70's for the rear. I considered the Monitor50's and Monitor60's, any suggestions on these, or do you have anything else to suggest. Or are floorstanding speakers overkill for the rear and I just need bookshelf speakers?

I don't have a sub picked out yet but will be getting a 10" or 12" powered sub most likely.

Thanks

Lietuvis91

M70s for fronts in a HT system are a good choice.

For surrounds. I would say it depends on the size of your room. If this is a big room then, m70s might be a good idea, otherwise I would go with m50s, if you wanted towers. I don't really see the point in doing m60s for surrouds, unless again, it's a big room. Counches with tall sides, meaning you sit into the couch, may block the sound from the towers, so this may mean you are better off with bookshelves (m40s )that you can hang at a height that suits your setup. But regardless of what you decide, just remember that you better get a very solid receiver to power those 4 floorstanders, or preferably an amp. Otherwise you will have one lackluster HT system.

bglinkerman

My room isn't all that large. Probably only about 15'x15' (it's a townhouse). Though, there are plans to move into a single family detached home sometime in the next few years so I'm trying to "future proof" my system.

Also, I'm considering this receiver, do you think it would be sufficient or would you still suggest an amp as well. It pushes 110 watt/channel on 8 ohm speakers.

http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=TX-NR709&class=Receiver&p=s

Thanks

Lietuvis91

Just realize that the M70 is a BIG speaker...

If it were me, I would save the money from buying a 2nd pair of m70s and instead invest in a more powerful receiver. My onkyo 608, rated for the same power as your 709, did a poor job running m70s with m60s as surrounds. The sound was anemic to say the least... I am currently in the process of re-evaluating/rearranging my setup.

The good thing about your 709 is that it has pre-outs(my 608 didn't), so you can add an amp later if you want. But I would just spend the money on a more powerful receiver up front, so that you do it right the first time. You get what you pay for. So in my opinion, if you're gonna buy big towers, then be ready to feed them enough power to help them do their job well.

I have only had the receivers in my sig, so don't have experience with different ones. I really like my marantz, and I am pretty sure that a powerful Denon or Pioneer Elite receiver would do a good job for you. I'm sure others will chime in.

bglinkerman

Yeah, looking back at the specs of the M70's that are quite large. Unfortunately, the wife has me on a budget so buying extra gear (eg: amps) may put me over. Maybe I should consider get 2 pairs of M60's instead?

EndersShadow

Honestly this is what I would do for your budget:

Fronts: M70's
Center: CS2

Go big on your front 3 as honestly they do most of the work in a HT enviorment. I have used the Monitor 60's as fronts and they worked great as well. I wanted the 70's but they were not in stock. I ran w/ the 60's as fronts for around 2 years and they worked great.

This is where I will surprise you:

Surrounds: Monitor 30's all the way.

I have used R50's (similar to Monitor 50's), Monitor 40's and a set of Infinity Primus 162's for my surrounds. I notice no difference between any of them, so I see no point in paying for more speaker when you dont need it.

Your surrounds dont produce enough sound in most movies to justify the cost of a floorstanding speaker. The only time I recommend one is if your going with Monitor 40's (which I wouldnt recommend) and cannot wall mount them. Then I would say go with Monitor 50's since they use the same drivers and tweeters, the 50's are just like a 40 + stand. Also you dont need to match to use Polk surrounds if you dont want to. Only the front 3 speakers need to be of the same line. Hence me using Infinity surrounds w/ Polk fronts.

Spend most of your money on your front 3 and your sub. The surrounds go cheap on and if needed replace later on, but doubt you will need/want to. Your sub you also dont want to cheap out on. If you have to go w/o one to save for a really good one then I would do that. I have a PSW125 and am not impressed with it. I hear good things about the PSW505 though and lots on the DSW line of subs from Polk. You also can use any sub, dont have to stick with Polk.

Also a external amp will help the 70's but isnt needed. Just make sure whatever reciever you buy (if you havent bought one already) has pre-outs. That way if you want to buy an external amp (which eventually you should) you can add it on without having to get a new reciever.

So to sum up this is what I recommend:

Reciever: Anything w/ pre-outs and a decent Auto Calibration program (Onkyo, Pioneer, Denon, Harman Kardon, ect)
Fronts: Monitor 70's (or 60's if budget is an issue)
Center: CS2
Surrounds: Monitor 30's
Sub: PSW505 or DSW sub, nothing less

Lietuvis91

I agree with the above.

I will just add that if you don't want to bother with external amlification, then save up for a stout receiver from the beginning.

Next to the choice of speakers, the choice of receiver makes a big difference.

bglinkerman

Hey guys, thanks again for your help.

I like where you are going with the rear surrounds. I think I'll do that because it will save me some $$ and I know the wife will be happier since she wasn't real fond of even having floor standing speakers....and I'll keep the two front 70's.

Couple more quick questions.

Is there a noticeable difference between the CS20 and the CS2. I noticed you suggested the CS2. I picked the CS20 originally because NewEgg has it on sale for just $150.

Also, I was looking at a second Onkyo amp (HT-RC370) which supports front bi-amping and the M70's say they have "dual (bi-amp) 5 way binding posts". If I understand correctly, since the amp is a 7 channel amp and I will only be using 5 channels I can bi-amp the remaining two channels to give my front two channels a wattage boost, which would essentially roll out the need for the external amp since they would now be supplied with 200 watts. Is this accurate or do I not know what I'm talking about. If not, I can use the money I'm saving from dropping the M60's and put that towards a more powerful amp.

Lietuvis91

onkyo's power rating is at 2 channels driven, so when you add a center and rears, power per channel drops off considerably. Bi-amping with this receiver probably will not be worth the speaker wire.

Buy a better receiver!

bglinkerman

Gotcha, then I guess I spend my cash on a better receiver....and since we are talking about them, would you have any brand suggestions as one being far superior over another?

Oh, and just an FYI, since the subwoofer came up a few posts ago. I'm not set but looking at the BIC F12.

EndersShadow

bglinkerman wrote: »

Gotcha, then I guess I spend my cash on a better receiver....and since we are talking about them, would you have any brand suggestions as one being far superior over another?

Lots of Folks like the Pioneer Elite's with ICE amps. Many of them have gone from a reciever w/ amp to just the Elite's. I havent heard one myself so will not comment on it.

Onkyo is another good brand many here like, as well as Marantz and Harman Kardon.

I personally like Audysee's room calibration software more than the MCAA of the Pioneer, but thats a personal preference.

So those are the brands I would look at (Pioneer, Onkyo, Harman Kardon and Marantz).

And personally get the PSW505 over the BIC, you will thank me. Or go w/o for a bit and get something better than both like a Epik Legend

bglinkerman

Cool, thanks a lot guys. I think I have enough info now to make my purchases. I appreciate your time and advice.

Lietuvis91

Do some homework, learn about them, go listen to them ;-)

Pioneer ICE amps are a good choice. The Marantz receivers work the same as ICE in that they achieve rated power with ALL channels driven. That's why I bought my Marantz.

Denon should be another possibility, solid brand that many like as well!

EndersShadow

bglinkerman wrote: »

Also, I was looking at a second Onkyo amp (HT-RC370) which supports front bi-amping and the M70's say they have "dual (bi-amp) 5 way binding posts". If I understand correctly, since the amp is a 7 channel amp and I will only be using 5 channels I can bi-amp the remaining two channels to give my front two channels a wattage boost, which would essentially roll out the need for the external amp since they would now be supplied with 200 watts. Is this accurate

No its not accurate. Bi-amping to put it midly is a marketing gimmick and unless you spend a butt ton of cash on speakers that support it (which few do) its not possible. If you want to read up on it search passive bi-amping as thats what the Onkyo is doing. And if you did do it you wouldnt get 200 watts for those front two channels.

bglinkerman wrote: »

I can use the money I'm saving from dropping the M60's and put that towards a more powerful amp.

Do this for sure. The M60's for HT v. the M70's are a toss up. If the choice is M60's w/ better reciever v. M70's with lesser reciever, get the M60's.

Get a good reciever now with lots of good power over more speaker with less power.

Also wait till they go on sale on Newegg. It happens pretty regularly so you can save even more. Take your time as this is for sure a tortise race.

bglinkerman

Thanks for the info regarding the bi-amping. I wasn't sure if I had it quite right or not. Fortunately, I'm still in the process of building the theater room so it will be a few months before I need the gear so I'll take my time and get some good research done.

There is also a HT shop near where I work so I'm thinking of stopping there tonight and hear some of the speakers.

Lietuvis91, thanks for the tip about looking for receivers rated for all channels driven. I've been looking at specs that say "**** watts 2-channel driven" and didn't really know what that meant, but I do now.

jbooker82

I would run FXI's. They are a nice surround speaker. Since sound comes out of both sides of the speakers they are hard to pin point by ear.

piker

Some people claim bi-amping doesn't do anything, and others think it makes a difference. I was uncertain until yesterday when I took the time to bi-amp my M70's.

I noticed a difference in the clarity of the highs and the low's after bi-amping with my Onkyo TX-NR808 and M70 fronts. Everything sounds a bit more distinguised. The highs are clear now and the low's are more pronounced.

I am not sure if using one set of speaker wire to drive four 6.5" drivers on an M70 is sufficient enough, but now that I have two sets of wires to drive the M70's four drivers in pairs, it definitely sounds better to me.

jbooker82

I didnt notice anything with my Onkyo 808. When you use the rear surround channels your also drastically cutting the watts per channel down.

Here is the bench testing from Home Theater Mag for the Onkyo TX-NR807
http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr807-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

5 Channels driven.
105.5 watts at 0.1% distortion
122.0 watts at 1.0% distortion

7 Channels Driven
29.9 watts at 0.1% distortion
33.0 watts at 1.0% distortion

By using the rear surrounds to "Bi Amp" your front towers your now using 7 channels in a 5.1 system. Cutting the power down that far wasnt worth it to me in order to run an extra speaker wire to each front tower.

IRLRaceFan

For the rear surrounds, I would get a set of OWM5's. They will sound very good for what you want them for, take up less room than tower or bookshelf speakers, and if you can hold out for them to be available on Polk Direct (ebay site), they'll cost less than $200 for the set.

Lietuvis91

jbooker82 wrote: »

I didnt notice anything with my Onkyo 808. When you use the rear surround channels your also drastically cutting the watts per channel down.

Here is the bench testing from Home Theater Mag for the Onkyo TX-NR807
http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr807-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

5 Channels driven.
105.5 watts at 0.1% distortion
122.0 watts at 1.0% distortion

7 Channels Driven
29.9 watts at 0.1% distortion
33.0 watts at 1.0% distortion

By using the rear surrounds to "Bi Amp" your front towers your now using 7 channels in a 5.1 system. Cutting the power down that far wasnt worth it to me in order to run an extra speaker wire to each front tower.

That's the point I was trying to make, and is the case for most receivers out there.

I think the one exception to this rule might be the receivers like The pioneer Elite or Marantz that provide the rated power with ALL channels driven. Then theoretically you should get double the power by bi-amping.

I have tried bi-amping my m70s with my Marantz receiver and DID notice a difference in sound quality, same results actually that Piker desclibes, clearer highs and deeper lows. So it does make a little bit of a difference, but even with my marantz it didn't seem enough to warrant extra speaker wire, if you're using expensive good quality wire. Bi-amping seemed to also have a strange side affect, where the highs became razor sharp at certain frequencies and not really pleasant to listen to. Not sure what caused that. Overall, I found the benefits of the external amp still blew bi-amping away by a long shot, that's the real difference!

EndersShadow

Lietuvis91 wrote: »

Bi-amping seemed to also have a strange side affect, where the highs became razor sharp at certain frequencies and not really pleasant to listen to. Not sure what caused that. Overall, I found the benefits of the external amp still blew bi-amping away by a long shot, that's the real difference!

I believe its because your sending too much power to the tweeter which makes it sound more shrill and ear piercing. I noticed this when I bi-amped using a dedicated amp. My Monitor 60's tweets got really shrill at times even after messing with the auto calibration.

Going back to just one connection at the amp end fixed it. I went with bi-wiring instead simply because I could and I prefer to not use the default jumpers

Lietuvis91

EndersShadow wrote: »

I believe its because your sending too much power to the tweeter which makes it sound more shrill and ear piercing. I noticed this when I bi-amped using a dedicated amp. My Monitor 60's tweets got really shrill at times even after messing with the auto calibration.

Going back to just one connection at the amp end fixed it. I went with bi-wiring instead simply because I could and I prefer to not use the default jumpers

I'm glad someone else noticed this too!

So the moral of the story seems to be that while bi-amping may in fact have some power benefit (marginal), the way that it does it via separating the feed to the highs and lows, sometimes introduces other problems that negates the benefits initially sought.

Which brings me back to my initial thought that there are no shortcuts to doing this right. If you're gonna run big speakers, budget for power to do them justice so that you can truely enjoy the system

EndersShadow

Lietuvis91 wrote: »

If you're gonna run big speakers, budget for power to do them justice so that you can truely enjoy the system

Or just dont crank it as loud until you can get big power. I have very much enjoyed watching movies at ~50 (out of 75) with my LSi's

B Run

I think the reason most people think Biamping helps is due to the fact they were still using the factory jumpers. You'll notice an improvement just replacing them with good wire.

Lietuvis91

B Run wrote: »

I think the reason most people think Biamping helps is due to the fact they were still using the factory jumpers. You'll notice an improvement just replacing them with good wire.

Interesting, can you elaborate a little bit? Do you mean just run a high quality speaker wire between the two posts instead of the jumper?

and in what way does this help? are the jumpers made out of poor quality material?

EndersShadow

Lietuvis91 wrote: »

Do you mean just run a high quality speaker wire between the two posts instead of the jumper?

Yes

Lietuvis91 wrote: »

Are the jumpers made out of poor quality material?

Thats the thought.

Personally I just bought some good 14 gauge in wall rated wire that had 4 strands in it. I bi-wired so I dont have to use any jumpers.