Coaxial v. USB to RCA

EndersShadow
EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
edited May 2011 in 2 Channel Audio
I am using just a computer for my source in the office and this wont be changing anytime soon. Right now I am using coaxial from my motherboard to the HK 3490 which is driving a set of Monitor 60's. Eventually I am wanting to get into seperates and possibly a set of LSi 7's or 9's. I am wondering what if anything I gain by picking up a USB to RCA DAC? I am using MediaMonkey for lots of my music, that or the Zune software (yes I am one of "those") and/or Pandora.

For USB to RCA DAC's I am thinking something along the line of the MusilandMonitor 02, Yulong U100, or HRT MediaStreamer, but I want to make sure I am actually gaining something out of this before investing the money.

So let me know if you think its a worthwhile upgrade or just not worth the cash right now.
"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited May 2011
    The Musiland Monitor 02 is excellent. They have extensive software and support, lots of flexibility and sound really nice for the price. I have heard the HRT is nice as well. One thing I personally don't like about the HRT is that it's powered by the USB port while the Musiland has a fully regulated discrete power supply. My experience with other components has proven a soild power supply is very important to good sound.

    I have the Musiland and was a little skeptical at first, but I'm very impressed with the build quality as well as the performance.

    Big thumbs up for it being simple, straight forward, not alot of fancy extra uneccesary frill's and great performance.

    Definitely a worthwhile upgrade. Sound cards are really not ideal if you are looking for the possible fidelity.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • coolsax
    coolsax Posts: 1,824
    edited May 2011
    +1 to the HRT, I use it.. If you're using a desktop with a decent power supply, then the HRT should be powered fine using the USB bus, however if you're using a laptop, I suggest using a self powered USB hub to power the HRT b/c I had a lot of static noise any time the mouse was moved or anything was done other than playing music when powered through a laptops usb ports, when I added a powered belkin USB hub the static was removed completely and sounds great!
    Main 2ch -
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited May 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    The Musiland Monitor 02 is excellent. They have extensive software and support, lots of flexibility and sound really nice for the price. I have heard the HRT is nice as well. One thing I personally don't like about the HRT is that it's powered by the USB port while the Musiland has a fully regulated discrete power supply. My experience with other components has proven a soild power supply is very important to good sound.

    I have the Musiland and was a little skeptical at first, but I'm very impressed with the build quality as well as the performance.

    Big thumbs up for it being simple, straight forward, not alot of fancy extra uneccesary frill's and great performance.

    Definitely a worthwhile upgrade. Sound cards are really not ideal if you are looking for the possible fidelity.

    Yeah, I been reading up on your posts on it and did a bunch of research when I was thinking about going with active speakers. Its con's for that are no longer an issue given this type of use.

    How is the computer interface program? To start with it will be the HK controlling the volume, but eventually I might eliminate that and go with a dedicated 2 channel amp, at which point all volume control would be through the Musiland software.

    coolsax wrote: »
    +1 to the HRT, I use it.. If you're using a desktop with a decent power supply, then the HRT should be powered fine using the USB bus, however if you're using a laptop, I suggest using a self powered USB hub to power the HRT b/c I had a lot of static noise any time the mouse was moved or anything was done other than playing music when powered through a laptops usb ports, when I added a powered belkin USB hub the static was removed completely and sounds great!

    Only thing I like about the Musiland better is that its got a headphone jack if I want to use it, and has a way to control the volume. The HRT has no volume control at all, and no headphone jack. Its one thing that irks me a bit about it and why I also threw in the Yulong as an option as it has both the headphone jack & volume control.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited May 2011
    So if I am understanding this correctly when using coaxial from the computer am I using its internal hardware to convert from digital to analog. By using a external USB to RCA DAC I am using its assumingly better equipment to handle this conversion right? Is that the main difference?

    Also are the DAC's in these better/worse/the same as the ones in the HK I have now? Haven't been able to find much info on the DAC's the 3490 has...
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • kawizx9r
    kawizx9r Posts: 5,150
    edited May 2011
    Stand-alone DAC in most cases would just sound better than that of a receiver's built-in DAC.

    As for the coaxial from computer, you're still just sending a digital signal to your receiver so the HK is doing the converting from digital-to-analog.

    Don't mean to derail but, how does the Logitech Squeezebox compare to those mentioned above? I'll be keeping an eye on this thread since I too plan on going strictly digital (at home).
    Truck setup
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    heiney9 wrote: »
    Any clue how to use the internet? Found it in about 10 sec.
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited May 2011
    kawizx9r wrote: »
    Stand-alone DAC in most cases would just sound better than that of a receiver's built-in DAC.

    As for the coaxial from computer, you're still just sending a digital signal to your receiver so the HK is doing the converting from digital-to-analog.

    Thanks, thats the info what I was looking for.
    kawizx9r wrote: »
    Don't mean to derail but, how does the Logitech Squeezebox compare to those mentioned above? I'll be keeping an eye on this thread since I too plan on going strictly digital (at home).

    LOL....i do my share of derailing.

    Got a couple threads for ya with some info on squeezbox touch and going all digital:

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118255

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117400 (some info toward the end)

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117907
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • kawizx9r
    kawizx9r Posts: 5,150
    edited May 2011
    I'm somewhat familiar with it but thanks for the links.

    I just meant compared to those listed above. Hate typing on a touchscreen lol
    Truck setup
    Alpine 9856
    Phoenix Gold RSD65CS

    For Sale
    Polk SR6500
    Polk SR5250
    Polk SR104


    heiney9 wrote: »
    Any clue how to use the internet? Found it in about 10 sec.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited May 2011
    The Musiland is better than the computer soundcard and most likely the H/K dac's. You'll have to try it and find out. I like the USB interface better than coax or toslink from a computer soundcard.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited May 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    The Musiland is better than the computer soundcard and most likely the H/K dac's. You'll have to try it and find out. I like the USB interface better than coax or toslink from a computer soundcard.

    Yeah I think I might give it a try. I can grab the SignalCable Analog Two's from my Right and Left rear surround downstairs and use those. I dont think I will tell a massive difference between the SignalCables and Monoprice interconnects for my rears......
    kawizx9r wrote: »
    I'm somewhat familiar with it but thanks for the links.

    I just meant compared to those listed above. Hate typing on a touchscreen lol

    Yeah, I am thinking about getting a squeezebox touch and then the remote thing as well for downstairs to stream everything. But that's secondary right now. Especially since I just upgraded my Monitor 60's to LSi 15's and got the db840's in em downstairs lol. I am enjoying a whole new level of sound as it is :smile:
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • cokewithvanilla
    cokewithvanilla Posts: 1,777
    edited May 2011
    If you get the Musiland and wanna A/B it with the HRT, let me know. I can definitely loan the thing to you. I am thinking that I will be away from my system for 3 weeks following my exams.
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited May 2011
    cokewithvanilla wrote: »
    If you get the Musiland and wanna A/B it with the HRT, let me know. I can definitely loan the thing to you. I am thinking that I will be away from my system for 3 weeks following my exams.

    I might just do that. Although I might get the older Musiland 01 since the only diff is the 01 is USB powered like the HRT. And since its older I can get it for less.

    We will see, gotta see how I can get this purchase to fly with the wife lol.....
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited May 2011
    EndersShadow wrote: »
    I might just do that. Although I might get the older Musiland 01 since the only diff is the 01 is USB powered like the HRT. And since its older I can get it for less.

    We will see, gotta see how I can get this purchase to fly with the wife lol.....

    Go with the 02, trust me.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited May 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Go with the 02, trust me.

    External power make that much of a difference? Thats the only difference I can see from some quick research....
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited May 2011
    So been working OT this week so hopefully in a week or so I will have some additional play money to get a DAC. Thinking I might just get the Musiland 02, but I have a question that might be silly but it wont stop me from asking.

    If I put a DAC converter between the computer and the HK, will the HK still use its internal DAC as well or not? How does it know not to mess with the signal?

    Obviously the last thing I want to is to get a better DAC and then basically make it useless by changing the signal its sending out before it hits the speakers.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited May 2011
    Sorry Enders I didn't get back to you on your PM. To answer your PM quesion I use it both ways and can flip between using it to convert USB to Coax for my AMC DAC8 or I can use it as a DAC..

    To answer your question above no, you would use one or the other not both at the same time. If you had 2 sets of RCA's you could compare the two units to each other.

    If you use the Musiland as the DAC then you'd use the analog outputs (to analog inputs on the HK) since it already would have done the digital conversion. If you use the Musiland as a USB to SPDIF/Coax?Toslink converter, then you'd use one of the digital outputs (coax or toslink) which would go to the digital input of the HK using the HK's internal DAC.

    You can hook the Musiland up both ways simultaneously and use the software counsole to switch between both for comparison.

    So to recap the Musiland Monitor 02 can be used as an excellent USB to SPDIF/Coax/Toslink converter or as a USB dac. It's also asynchronous.......which is what one wants.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited May 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Sorry Enders I didn't get back to you on your PM. To answer your PM quesion I use it both ways and can flip between using it to convert USB to Coax for my AMC DAC8 or I can use it as a DAC.

    No worries, people are busy with those things called lives :wink:. So which setup do you prefer the AMC's DAC's or those in the Musiland?
    heiney9 wrote: »
    If you use the Musiland as the DAC then you'd use the analog outputs (to analog inputs on the HK) since it already would have done the digital conversion. If you use the Musiland as a USB to SPDIF/Coax?Toslink converter, then you'd use one of the digital outputs (coax or toslink) which would go to the digital input of the HK using the HK's internal DAC.

    You can hook the Musiland up both ways simultaneously and use the software counsole to switch between both for comparison.

    OK, that was the part I was missing. I didnt know if I took the analog signal sent from the Musiland to an analog input in the HK that it would leave the signal alone.

    I might try it both ways just to see if/when I get it.

    I will have to grab the SignalCable Analog 2's from downstairs though as if I am gonna buy a good DAC, using .68 cent interconnects is kinda dumb :smile:

    Its ok, I have 5 for my HT downstairs so I can grab the SR & SL ones and prob not notice any diff in that setup and should notice a difference in the office setup.

    That and I keep eyeing the MIT Exp cables still on sale.....but dont wanna pony up more cable money right now lol....
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited May 2011
    EndersShadow wrote: »
    So which setup do you prefer the AMC's DAC's or those in the Musiland?

    I still slightly prefer the presentation of the AMC, but to be fair I have had that dac for about 3 years and I'm much more familiar with the sound. I've only listened to the Musiland as a dac maybe 1/2 dozen times.

    I plan to do some more experimenting. The synergy with the AMC and my tube amps w/the 5B's is just "there". I don't care for the AMC in the main rig because it's a little to bright and the bass is a bit bloated, but it just works in the office rig.

    The Musiland is a very nice dac for the price. The build quality is very good and I like the flexibility as well as the regulated power supply.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited May 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    I still slightly prefer the presentation of the AMC, but to be fair I have had that dac for about 3 years and I'm much more familiar with the sound. I've only listened to the Musiland as a dac maybe 1/2 dozen times.

    I plan to do some more experimenting. The synergy with the AMC and my tube amps w/the 5B's is just "there". I don't care for the AMC in the main rig because it's a little to bright and the bass is a bit bloated, but it just works in the office rig.

    The Musiland is a very nice dac for the price. The build quality is very good and I like the flexibility as well as the regulated power supply.

    H9

    Gotcha. My 2 channel setup right now is kinda in the humble beginning phases. I dont listen to it too much but want to start slowly building it up. Since I am all digital I figured the first step should be something as close to the source as possible and then work my way out (pre-amp, amp, speakers, ect).

    Eventually the goal is to have a nice set of Maggies (thanks to NooshinJohn for the intro to them), probably the MMG's or the 1.7's with either 2 monoblock tube amps, or a 2 channel amp w/ a tube buffer and possibly a sub. But thats a bit off.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited May 2011
    Simply for space reasons in the office rig I may just use the Musiland and closet the AMC. I just moved into a new house and still don't have the office rig up and running yet. Hopefully soon. I'll use the Musiland by itself for awhile and see if I like it as much as the AMC. New surroundings might just be the ticket.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited May 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Simply for space reasons in the office rig I may just use the Musiland and closet the AMC. I just moved into a new house and still don't have the office rig up and running yet. Hopefully soon. I'll use the Musiland by itself for awhile and see if I like it as much as the AMC. New surroundings might just be the ticket.

    H9

    I might just transfer my OT cash into my Paypal account and hold it there till I know what I wanna do with it :smile: That way it cant be used for other stuff lol

    Keep me updated with how things go when you get it all setup.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited May 2011
    I forgot I also have another USB dac I bought not too longa ago that I've hardly put ears on.

    Pop Pulse PCM 1796

    http://cryo-parts.com/index.php/dacs/usb-dacs/pop-pulse

    Totally forgot I had this.....a CP member sent me some Op-amps to roll in it. Guess I have some listening to do.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited May 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    I forgot I also have another USB dac I bought not too longa ago that I've hardly put ears on.

    Pop Pulse PCM 1796

    http://cryo-parts.com/index.php/dacs/usb-dacs/pop-pulse

    Totally forgot I had this.....a CP member sent me some Op-amps to roll in it. Guess I have some listening to do.

    H9

    Notice its not upsampling. Is that a deal breaker on these? I know the Musiland will upsample.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited May 2011
    I don't really play the upsampling game. Sure it's nice if it does but not a deal breaker for me personally.

    I've heard really mediocre upsampling units vs. a stellar std unit and the standard unit sounded better simply because it was designed better with premium parts.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited May 2011
    I see no need for up-sampling. Either it's well recorded or it's not, and up-sampling is not going to make a poor recording sound good.
    Jake
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  • olilugo
    olilugo Posts: 405
    edited May 2011
    Somthing to consider, please keep in mind I don't know if this statement is completely accurate.
    I read somewhere in either reviews or something...:
    USB max data rate/sampleling is 24bit/96Khz
    while digital(optical/coax) is 24bit/192Khz.

    According to what I was reading there is no easy way for USB to handle 24bit/192Khz.
    I don't know if you have material that needs 24bit/192Khz, or 24bit/96Khz is all you need.

    I am sure someone more resourfull will clarify my statement.
    Current HT setup
    Mains: B&W 804s
    Center: Polk CSi5
    Surround: Polk FXi3
    Sub: Velodyne DLS-3750R
    Receiver: Pioneer SC-07
    Amplifier: Sunfire TGA5200
    TV: Sony KDS60A2020
    DBP: Sony DBP-S350
    CDP: Pioneer DV-48AV
    Interconnect cables: SignalCable analog II
    speaker cables: SignalCable Ultra Speaker Cables Bi-wire
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited May 2011
    Well I have some FLAC files, but honestly its gonna be mostly Pandora or from my Zune library (some of which was converted from FLAC to 320 bps MP3's, some is just whatever bitrate I got it in).

    Not sure how much of a deal breaker that might be if true.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited May 2011
    It is true, but since a majority of high-rez music is 24/96, I've never giving it a second thought. I do have a few 24/192 files on my computer, but they do not sound much different than the 24/96 stuff, and not worth the extra hassle and expense in my opinion.
    Jake
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited May 2011
    If you have a desktop computer you may want to look at the E-MU 1212M PCIe. None of the limitations of USB.

    From what I am have been reading the SQ is killer. It will work with both balanced and un-balanced connections, offers S/PDIF and AES/EBU also.

    Just food for thought.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited May 2011
    olilugo wrote: »
    Somthing to consider, please keep in mind I don't know if this statement is completely accurate.
    I read somewhere in either reviews or something...:
    USB max data rate/sampleling is 24bit/96Khz

    Correct, it's part of the USB 1.1 protocol spec...
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited May 2011
    EndersShadow wrote: »
    Well I have some FLAC files, but honestly its gonna be mostly Pandora or from my Zune library (some of which was converted from FLAC to 320 bps MP3's, some is just whatever bitrate I got it in).

    Not sure how much of a deal breaker that might be if true.

    MP3's, streaming internet music it won't make one bit of difference if it upsamples or not.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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