AMP Heat issue with sda srs? Anyone?

prsartist3
prsartist3 Posts: 20
edited April 2011 in Vintage Speakers
im having an overheating issue with my amps connected to the Polk Sda-SRS speakers. my phase linear 400 II amp was recently serviced, and when driving the polks "Hard" the amp becomes REALLY HOT! Even shutdown 1x!

I then conncted my Carver m-5oot and it too became very hot when pushed hard but has not shutdown. (not as Hot as the phase linear)

im trying to figure out how to remedy this issue?

Has anyone else expierenced heat issues when using these speakers?

my sda-srs are unmodified.

Thanks in advance.
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  • Schurkey
    Schurkey Posts: 2,102
    edited April 2011
    Crossover components are old and have become defective/drifted from original values?

    Amps are old, internal components have become defective? (What was actually replaced during the servicing of the Flame Linear? What tests were done to assure it met specs?)

    I'd expect anything Bob Carver had a hand in designing would power a nominal 4-ohm speaker without breathing too hard.
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  • TNRabbit
    TNRabbit Posts: 2,168
    edited April 2011
    x2 to above post; also, how hard are you driving them?
    TNRabbit
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  • charley95
    charley95 Posts: 908
    edited April 2011
    prsartist3 wrote: »
    im having an overheating issue with my amps connected to the Polk Sda-SRS speakers. my phase linear 400 II amp was recently serviced, and when driving the polks "Hard" the amp becomes REALLY HOT! Even shutdown 1x!

    I then conncted my Carver m-5oot and it too became very hot when pushed hard but has not shutdown. (not as Hot as the phase linear)

    im trying to figure out how to remedy this issue?

    Has anyone else expierenced heat issues when using these speakers?

    my sda-srs are unmodified.

    Thanks in advance.

    Not that my suggestion is a remedy, but you might want to keep a small fan next to your amp. I have a tube amp that naturally gets a little warm when pushed hard. Wal Mart sells a 4 inch desk fan for $6.00 that works quite well for keeping the amp cool.
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  • prsartist3
    prsartist3 Posts: 20
    edited April 2011
    Im not sure exactly everything that was replaced (I didn't ask)
    I'm not really electronically educated but
    He showed me a handful of little caps & transistors. (I trust the guy Ive known him for years.) I know the "power supply board?" was
    Completely rebuilt, and the "Bias was set"? Also he resoldered a bunch
    Of wire connections. Plus the usual cleaning of switches and pots..etc..

    As far as "how hard was I pushing it" ?
    It certainly wasn't hard enough i would think to cause
    It to overheat. Maybe 70% AT MOST of the amps power.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,420
    edited April 2011
    I may be wrong, but those amps are not common ground, are they? If you are running a non-common ground amp into the SDA's, bad things can happen.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited April 2011
    Is this heat issue something new or did they get hot before? Is your volume control knob under or over the halfway point when driving the speakers hard?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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  • prsartist3
    prsartist3 Posts: 20
    edited April 2011
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    I may be wrong, but those amps are not common ground, are they? If you are running a non-common ground amp into the SDA's, bad things can happen.


    Neither of the amps have the "newer" power cord with the ground
    Plug if that's what your asking?

    What "bad things" are you talking about?

    And yes the volume was at about 2 o'clock.
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  • charley95
    charley95 Posts: 908
    edited April 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    Is this heat issue something new or did they get hot before? Is your volume control knob under or over the halfway point when driving the speakers hard?

    Not meaning to drift here but, Is the volume control past 12:00 not a good thing? I have had mine at 2-3 o clock when the neighbors leave.
    I have not noticed any distortion at these levels. I have 2.3's driven by a Rogue amp 90WPC.
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,287
    edited April 2011
    prsartist3 wrote: »
    Neither of the amps have the "newer" power cord with the ground
    Plug if that's what your asking?

    What "bad things" are you talking about?

    And yes the volume was at about 2 o'clock.

    What John was inquiring about "common ground" are the negative speaker terminals common .....i.e. can you meter or test continuity between them
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,420
    edited April 2011
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    What John was inquiring about "common ground" are the negative speaker terminals common .....i.e. can you meter or test continuity between them
    Exactly... The m500 I had back in the day did not like being paired with SDA's. It caused all kinds of distortion and blew several drivers anytime the volume got close to half way. Even at lower volumes, it just never sounded right, and the amp was hot enough to fry an egg on.

    Disconnect the SDA cable between the two speakers and try again. If they play and the amps run cooler, you will have the answer.

    EDIT***

    The original SDA's were 4 ohm as I recall, and I know the Phase Linear 400's did not like to see a 4ohm load, as they would get VERY hot. The M500 is probably not a common ground amp, and would also get hot if presented a 4ohm load with the SDA cable in place. My gut tells me that the speakers may need a recap of the crossovers, but to solve the trouble, you need a 4ohm rated common ground amp that can deliver some major current.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited April 2011
    charley95 wrote: »
    Not meaning to drift here but, Is the volume control past 12:00 not a good thing? I have had mine at 2-3 o clock when the neighbors leave.
    I have not noticed any distortion at these levels. I have 2.3's driven by a Rogue amp 90WPC.

    It is somewhat dependent of the gain levels of the amp and pre amp, but in general, past 12 noon is a no-no.

    prsartist3 wrote:
    And yes the volume was at about 2 o'clock.
    Turn it down.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • prsartist3
    prsartist3 Posts: 20
    edited April 2011
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    Exactly... The m500 I had back in the day did not like being paired with SDA's. It caused all kinds of distortion and blew several drivers anytime the volume got close to half way. Even at lower volumes, it just never sounded right, and the amp was hot enough to fry an egg on.

    Disconnect the SDA cable between the two speakers and try again. If they play and the amps run cooler, you will have the answer.

    Just finished talking to my repair guy, he does not know
    Anything about the Polk Sda speakers (about the cable between them)
    He suggested exactly the same thing about disconnecting the cable.

    He says that should eliminate any problems with the "common ground"
    Issue.

    I have always run them through a vintage kenwood receiver
    In the past without any issues. I just recently dusted off
    Some of my old amps and had them serviced to start running them again.
    So to answer the previous question, I have not run them through this amp or the carver before!

    But I agree I could have fried an egg off this amp!
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited April 2011
    He suggested exactly the same thing about disconnecting the cable.

    That is not a solution, mearly a Band-aid and you lose the purpose of having SDA's.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,420
    edited April 2011
    Agreed Jesse. SDA's need the cable connected to sound their best but running them as they are being used now will cause damage to the amps, the speakers or both.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • prsartist3
    prsartist3 Posts: 20
    edited April 2011
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    Agreed Jesse. SDA's need the cable connected to sound their best but running them as they are being used now will cause damage to the amps, the speakers or both.


    Well removal of the sda cable seemed to resolve the heat issue!
    The amp did get warm, but no where near the frying pan hot it was
    With the sda cable connected.

    Surprisingly, I really can't tell much of a difference
    Without the sda cable. If anything the stereo separation is better
    Without it!!

    My room is just too small to optimally place the speakers.
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited April 2011
    If that's so then maybe n-john was right about the Flame Linear not being a common ground amp? However, as Jesse implies, removing the SDA cable defeats the reason those speakers were engineered and turns them into common stereo speakers without the SDA effect.

    cnh
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited April 2011
    cnh wrote: »
    If that's so then maybe n-john was right about the Flame Linear not being a common ground amp? However, as Jesse implies, removing the SDA cable defeats the reason those speakers were engineered and turns them into common stereo speakers without the SDA effect.

    cnh

    Actually, they become less desireable than common stereo stereo speakers because the now unpowered drivers are resonant and the driver to baffle geometry becomes less than optimal for the drivers used.
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  • Polkie2009
    Polkie2009 Posts: 3,834
    edited April 2011
    Sounds like John and Jesse nailed it!:) Those old Phase Linear amps are well documented for getting their nickname,lol. I'd have to say, generally,anything over 1 o'clock on an amp volume pot is starting to push it.Honestly, I'm surprised(and relieved) the SDA's survived it:)
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited April 2011
    Polkie2009 wrote: »
    Sounds like John and Jesse nailed it!:) Those old Phase Linear amps are well documented for getting their nickname,lol. I'd have to say, generally,anything over 1 o'clock on an amp volume pot is starting to push it.Honestly, I'm surprised(and relieved) the SDA's survived it:)

    I'm wondering if everything did survive in the speakers based on the original poster's comments that they sound better without the interconnect. I've found SDA's to sound "dead" without it, and never better.
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  • prsartist3
    prsartist3 Posts: 20
    edited April 2011
    Polkie2009 wrote: »
    Sounds like John and Jesse nailed it!:) Those old Phase Linear amps are well documented for getting their nickname,lol. I'd have to say, generally,anything over 1 o'clock on an amp volume pot is starting to push it.Honestly, I'm surprised(and relieved) the SDA's survived it:)

    "survived it"??
    To be honest they never sounded better!
    I can't imagine people running under 100wpc into these monsters!
    The louder they get the better they sound.
    Fortunately I don't "have" to use the Phase Linear amps to drive these, even though the heat issue is better, i still don't trust them paired together!

    Thanks for everyone's help!

    This has got to be one of the best forums around.
    I should of asked this here 2 weeks ago, instead of struggling
    To figure it out on my own....
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited April 2011
    The 400 is common ground so I suspect the issue is insufficient heatsinking to disipate the extra heat developed from continously driving a 4 ohm load at high levels.
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  • prsartist3
    prsartist3 Posts: 20
    edited April 2011
    inspiredsports wrote: »
    I'm wondering if everything did survive in the speakers based on the original poster's comments that they sound better without the interconnect. I've found SDA's to sound "dead" without it, and never better.


    Well I will be rearranging my "multiple"
    Home stereo systems this weekend and I will hook them back up
    To the old kenwood & pioneer amps. Then I will be able to tell if anything is not Sounding "right" with them. I just wanted to try the sda's with "more" power!

    They definitely don't sound "dead" without the cable attached!!
    I would definitely suspect something is wrong with your speakers if they sound bad without the cable!
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  • prsartist3
    prsartist3 Posts: 20
    edited April 2011
    FTGV wrote: »
    The 400 is common ground so I suspect the issue is insufficient heatsinking to disipate the extra heat developed from continously driving a 4 ohm load at high levels.

    I still am not quite sure what all this talk about "common ground" means?

    Well the phase linear amps always seemed to run hotter
    Than any other amps I've owned. And it if definitely cooler without the cable attached! I even pushed it harder with some bass heavy "old school" rap music. I still believe it's warmer than it is with my other speakers, so they will
    Be switched, just to keep everything ."cool!"
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited April 2011
    prsartist3 wrote: »
    I still am not quite sure what all this talk about "common ground" means?
    It's refering to how the output stage of the amp is configured.Put simply an amp which is common ground means that both of it's negative output terminals are tied to a common ground point usually power supply star ground.Non common ground amps with bridged /balanced output stages do not have their negative terminals tied to gound nor are they at ground potential.The negative output actually carries the inverted half of the signal.
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited April 2011
    prsartist3 wrote: »
    Well I will be rearranging my "multiple"
    Home stereo systems this weekend and I will hook them back up
    To the old kenwood & pioneer amps. Then I will be able to tell if anything is not Sounding "right" with them. I just wanted to try the sda's with "more" power!

    They definitely don't sound "dead" without the cable attached!!
    I would definitely suspect something is wrong with your speakers if they sound bad without the cable!

    Big SDA's require a wide wall (18-20') and a big room to sound their best. You will want the outside edges at least 3 feet from each side wall, and spaced with about 8-10' feet between the inside edges. The backs of the cabinets should be 6-8" away from the back wall.

    Your optimal listening position should put your ears level with the seam between the 2nd and 3rd tweeter. You should sit on the centerline between the two cabinets, back from the front plane of the cabinets as far back as the distance between tweeters.

    With a powerful, quality, high-current common ground amp that can comfortably drive into 4 ohms and the SDA Interconnect cable connected, those speakers will SHINE. If/when you then listen with the interconnect removed, they will sound "dead".

    Welcome to Club Polk and Enjoy!
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  • Big Dawg
    Big Dawg Posts: 2,005
    edited April 2011
    I'm close to certain that the Carver M-500 is NOT common ground.
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  • prsartist3
    prsartist3 Posts: 20
    edited April 2011
    Big Dawg wrote: »
    I'm close to certain that the Carver M-500 is NOT common ground.

    They aren't! Either are his old phase linear amps.
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  • kawizx9r
    kawizx9r Posts: 5,150
    edited April 2011
    Wow.

    After reading everything and seeing that the amps are indeed not common ground, I'm surprised the OP didn't blow/fry anything!

    There have been countless people that have connected SDA's (with interconnect cord) to a non-common ground amp and have fried something in both the amp and speakers.

    You drove your speakers hard and nothing happened. Angels are watching over your SDA's gear_lol2.gif
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited April 2011
    With 24 drivers involved and all of those caps and resistors, I think it remains to be seen that nothing bad has happened.
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  • prsartist3
    prsartist3 Posts: 20
    edited April 2011
    Well I switched the speakers back to my old kenwood amp, and reconnected
    The sda cable. Everything still sounds great!
    The carvers won't be powering these again that's for sure!

    I'm glad I came to the right spot before I caught the house on fire!
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