Tsi 400 v/s Monitor 60 - regardless of price ?

AVHead

Lets take price out of the equation - or say the Tsi400 is available only for a little more. Then for mostly 2 channel music and driving with a HK3490 which is a better choice ? I have heard the Tsi400 but not the Monitor 60.

I have seen comments like "they are the same speaker" but I dont believe that. If they are the same speaker then how come the -3db low, sensitivity and most importantly the crossover points on both these speakers are different ?! Perhaps they use the same drivers (is that really true again ?) but that still doesn't make them the same speaker!

btw, was the Monitor 60 ever made with a black baffle in a cherry finish ? I saw a couple of them on ebay and amazon but not sure if its a spoof.

vwfred69

black fronts are monitor 2s I think you can get them from newegg

AVHead

ok thanks. I do like that look the best. pretty good price on NE right now for the Cherry finish.
but now that adds yet another variable to the mix - a different tweeter ? and a different crossover point ?

P.S:- a typo in my original post -

this - "how come the -3db low, sensitivity and" should read "how come the low -3db point, the overall sensitivity, and..."

cnh

I'm not quite sure what you are referring to? The TSI 400 series is a tweaked version of the former M-60s which are the same speaker as neweggs M-60s series 2.

The drivers, themselves in all of these speakers are not radically different from each other. The TSI cabinetry is a tad different...it is bottom ported rather than having the port in the front and, in general the cabinet volume is slightly larger in the TSI series allowing for a bit more extended bass--but not a huge difference with the previous speaker. The main differences in the TSI series from what I've seen and heard is that they have a uniform crossover of 2.5khz (which I assume was a decision made by Polk Engineers to provide more of a seamless matching between ALL TSI speakers for Home Theater--primarily!

The cosmetic appearances are also a big bonus on the TSI series whose finish looks a look more contemporary and a lot more like real wood veneer. When I listen to both series--I'm not wowed to the point where I feel the TSIs are some new level of performance over the Monitors that preceded them. In fact, I prefer my M-70s to the TSI-500s for 2 channel performance. In conclusion, if you're setting up a HT the TSI series is probably a smidgen better for surround sound. And it looks a lot better. More WAF there.

Hope this helps.

cnh

AVHead

Thanks cnh for your input. Always appreciated.

What I was mainly refering to was that I didn't think the speakers were as similar to each other as often claimed, because of the different crossover points -
Tsi400 - 2.5Khz
M60 - 2.25Khz
M60S2 - 2.3Khz

and some wording difference in the description of the tweeter -
Tsi400 - Silk dome.
M60 - Silk/polymer composite dome.
M60S2 - Cloth dome.

tonyb

The better choice, which was your question, is the one that sounds better to you. Doesn't necessarily matter on the parts list of each speaker, it's the sound comming out that should be of concern. Try and get an ear on each driven with gear of equal quality and then decide for yourself.

AVHead

Sure. but easier said than done. If I could listen to, side-by-side, all the speakers I am interested in then I wouldn't have even posted the question. Its really hard, most of the time actually, to do such a comparison.
Besides that, I believe objective information of the product should equally be part of the purchase decision as well.

Geoff4rfc

If price is no object, then why not consider the TSi4? It's the newer version of the M60 and has a nice face lift IMO.

tonyb

AVHead wrote: »

Sure. but easier said than done. If I could listen to, side-by-side, all the speakers I am interested in then I wouldn't have even posted the question. Its really hard, most of the time actually, to do such a comparison.
Besides that, I believe objective information of the product should equally be part of the purchase decision as well.

Agreed, but don't let a parts list persuade your discision. I have seen plenty of speakers with parts list to die for but sound like crap.

Maybe someone close to you has these speakers for you to listen,or just buy them, you could always return the ones you don't like. Personally, either one would sound good, but then again,thats my ears,not yours.

Hamchunk

I just installed a new HT system in my home. I used all TSi series. With Tsi 100's in the rear, TSi 400's front LR, & CS10 center. Coupled with a BIC America 12" sub & an Onkyo receiver. I can say it sounds great! I'm a happy camper watching movies & gaming with this set up. :biggrin: The TSi series have the piano black tops that match my other componenets. The monitor series is still a great speaker, no doubt. Good deals on the TSi series can be found now also. Either will serve you well.

Ham

ranger

Hamchunk, how many watts per channel is your receiver? I just ordered a very similar setup and I have a 90w by 7 receiver. Kind of put the cart before the horse and now I hope I have plenty of power to drive these babies.

Hamchunk

Ranger, My receiver is only 100 watts per channel & it has plenty to drive my set up. The Polk speakers are very efficient, so your 90w will be fine. Trust me, you will like what you here.

Take care,
Ham

m60cs2

The tsi400s are double the price. I went with the monitor 60s. I could not hear any difference between the 2.

ranger

Thanks for the reply Hamchunk. That is what I hoped to hear.

AVHead

So I broke down and ordered a pair of Monitor 60 Series II from Newegg. Here are some of my initial impressions. Keep in mind its not even 24 hours since I have got them.

Overall ? its "ok". Nothing great to write home about but I guess you loose the right to complaint for $250. These will serve exactly the purpose I bought them for i.e. a cheap stop gap alternative until I am ready to buy a great set of speakers. Would I buy these speakers for permanent long term use ? Most definitely not!

The two things that stood out to me right away are -
1. They are shrill. The top end is hot. Not ear piercing but emphasized.
2. There is a midrange grunge or a certain roughness in the midrange. I ran a step frequency sweep through just the tweeter and I could actually hear distortion below 2.5Khz at even low-moderate volume levels. So I think this grunginess/roughness could be coming from the 1Khz-2.5Khz range. Audible distortion in this range where the ear is most sensitive is a felony in the world of speaker and crossover design.

Now will these two things ease out as they break in ? Or is this how these speakers will always sound ?

I hear some cabinet resonance and distortion in the mid-bass region but haven't explored that very well yet.
Bass is adequate and acceptably clean, but doesn't extend low enough for a tower speaker this size. One thing to note is that I had to give it a good hour or two for the bass to come alive. It was relatively thin out of the box.

Stay tuned for frequency response, distortion and impedance charts.

cnh

Whatya running as the power source, AVR? If it's a low end Yamaha...that's the sound I'd expect! Keep in mind most speakers require an 'extensive' break in period. Initial appraisals can be misleading.

Also of note is that all Monitor towers are not Boombox Bass modules. The tweeter in the series is usually fairly mellow so I suspect it's your music source or AVR? In any case a SUB is necessary for the lower end.

Good Luck.

Are you running that HK3490? I have one of those as well. And although a lot of people here describe that unit as 'warmish': I don't find that to be the case with most
current Polk speakers?

cnh

AVHead

yep HK3490. source is Panasonic BD85K bluray player and have tried both optical and coax to utilize the DAC of the HK3490. Very subtle differences between all types of connections but nothing significant. I wouldn't call the combination warm either. I haven't tried other sources (ipod) yet.

actually the whole playback chain (source, recvr, speakers) is fairly new. I guess it would be fair to give it all some time.

EndersShadow

AVHead wrote: »

yep HK3490. source is Panasonic BD85K bluray player and have tried both optical and coax to utilize the DAC of the HK3490. Very subtle differences between all types of connections but nothing significant. I wouldn't call the combination warm either. I haven't tried other sources (ipod) yet.

actually the whole playback chain (source, recvr, speakers) is fairly new. I guess it would be fair to give it all some time.

Well in about a week I can give you my thoughts on your exact setup using a different source & of course a different room size.

I currently have my computer hooked up via Monoprice coaxial cable to my HK3490. While I have Primus 162's connected, after a bunch of upgrading happening this week I will also be using Monitor 60's as my speakers.

So maybe I can help you figure out if its your source or not.

GoBigBlue

I chose the Monitor 60 series II over the TSi. I listened to both side by side at a local dealer but the difference in sound didn't warrant the extra money. I got a pair of 60s off Newegg for $150 during a special with a coupon. IMO the difference in sound is minimal, but I give the advantage to the TSi series. I don't regret my decision one bit though.

I like the TSi sound for music and the Monitor II for HT.

AVHead

EndersShadow wrote: »

Well in about a week I can give you my thoughts on your exact setup using a different source & of course a different room size.

That would be great. Thanks!
btw monoprice coax here as well.

EndersShadow

AVHead wrote: »

That would be great. Thanks!
btw monoprice coax here as well.

I plan to also test everything in a week or two using a Signal Cable Analog Two interconnect to see how much of a difference it makes. I am betting quite a lot based on past experiences.

pdxfj

They do take time to break in. I bought a pair of M70's and a CS2 off a guy on Craigslist. He had them about 3 months and were too much speaker for his room. He admitted he hardly used them.

It took at least a couple hundred hours to get them broken in and when they finally started to settle down I really noticed a change in how they sounded. That was running off a Onkyo 608.

Now I'm running them off a 5ch Sony ES amp, being fed by an Onkyo 808. They are more clear and defined than ever. Smooth high end and nice clear mids. Still have to try bridging the amp in BTL mode to see what that sounds like.

AVHead

Question - the drivers on the M60 are supposed to be 5.25" but I measured the drivers across and they are only 4.25", so what am I missing ?
The standard way of measuring a speaker diameter is between the midpoints of the surround (the soft bulgy edge of the speaker) from one side to the other, basically the portion of the speaker that can actually move air and that measures only 4.25". How can they ever claim that as a 5.25" driver ??

I guess the Tsi 400 drivers would be the same way too ?

dowop

They are. I just measured mine.

EndersShadow

^reported

Joe08867

You measured across the entire driver from basket edge to basket edge not just the speaker cone?

I ask cause there is a good 1" difference between the two measurements.

If you are unhappy with them nothing you measure or look at will help. Either give them a chance to settle in or return them but seriously you are over thinking these speakers.

Outfitter03

AVHead wrote: »

The two things that stood out to me right away are -
1. They are shrill. The top end is hot. Not ear piercing but emphasized.
2. There is a midrange grunge or a certain roughness in the midrange. I ran a step frequency sweep through just the tweeter and I could actually hear distortion below 2.5Khz at even low-moderate volume levels. So I think this grunginess/roughness could be coming from the 1Khz-2.5Khz range. Audible distortion in this range where the ear is most sensitive is a felony in the world of speaker and crossover design.

Now will these two things ease out as they break in ? Or is this how these speakers will always sound ?

I hear some cabinet resonance and distortion in the mid-bass region but haven't explored that very well yet.
Bass is adequate and acceptably clean, but doesn't extend low enough for a tower speaker this size. One thing to note is that I had to give it a good hour or two for the bass to come alive. It was relatively thin out of the box.

Stay tuned for frequency response, distortion and impedance charts.

They will improve with time. I would give them 200-300 hours before judging. I just left mine running during the day and it took about 2-3 weeks for break-in to be complete.

I had problems with cabinet resonance also and when I opened these up I found the factory was very, very sparing with the hot glue. The bracings were held in place, but there was significant gaps between the braces and the speaker walls. I used about 10 6" hot glue sticks per speaker to fill in the gaps so the braces could do their job. Also there were just three pieces of poly fill for damping. One behind the midrange driver, one stuck in the bracing between the upper bass driver and lower bass driver and a piece on the bottom under the port. I used this http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-530 in the mid enclosure and some wool felt in the bass enclosures for damping.

AVHead

Joe08867 wrote: »

You measured across the entire driver from basket edge to basket edge not just the speaker cone?

I ask cause there is a good 1" difference between the two measurements.

Like I said, the industry standard way is to measure just the driver cone (including the surround which is soft rubber moving part on the edge of the cone), and NOT the basket edge!
Yeah make the basket 2 inches wider and call it a 8" driver. How convenient!

Everything that Outfitter03 said above is true. Its a terrible cabinet job. Outfitter03, have you seen the distortion on the tweeter between 2k-4k. Its humiliating! Are you saying that will just go away after 300 hrs ??

Joe08867 wrote: »

If you are unhappy with them nothing you measure or look at will help. Either give them a chance to settle in or return them but seriously you are over thinking these speakers.

You are missing the point. I paid only $250 so I dont have much regrets but I can't believe and get over the fact that people were made to pay $650 for a pair such lousy speakers, and if the Tsi are anything like these, you've just been robbed.


Needless to say, this is my first and last Polk purchase!

Outfitter03

In my reply I didn't mean to imply the monitor 60s are lousy speakers. I believe I paid a very fair price for what I got. The tweaks that I did took a little of my time and a little coin but I still believe I got a excellent value for the price I paid.

At the time I bought these I could not afford anything significantly nicer and have gotten hundreds of hours of enjoyment out of these. I know they are not LSIs or comparable in quality to the vintage SDA Polk speakers, but they fit nicely into my house and provide lots of enjoyment.

Currently they are surrounds for my system and the Monitor 70's are my main speakers. I am in the process of tweaking the 70s with new crossovers and really enjoy them also. One of these days I will have the money to buy a much higher quality speaker for a two channel system, but in the meantime I am enjoying good tunes and learning.

I don't have noticable distortion on my tweeter, but I am a relative newby so probably don't have the educated ear to pick up subtle problems. I currently have a yamaha 2065 as my avr and use an adcom GFA 545ii to power my 60's.

chadam44

Don't give up on Polks as a whole, just disregard the stuff they started carrying at best buy. The RTi and LSi lines sound very nice and compare favorably in terms of finances/overall sound/build quality to many other well regarded speaker companies.

Almadacr

AVhead you really sound very much with a guy i know who bought Totem speakers and now is a expert in speakers :rolleyes: , all speakers need a break in out of the box . The size of the driver is the outside diameter of the frame period , this is the way of the industry standard is not what you say .

The sound it vary`s from receiver to receiver but really .. really , you talk in frequencies of 1Khz-2.5Khz , for starters with that much knowledge you would`t be buying Monitors 60 series II but you will be buying something like wharfedales Diamond series .

Regarding the frequencies i would accept something along the lines that the M60s cannot reproduce low frequency bass properly , you always would need to ad a subwoofer to enjoy them .

The part of " Stay tuned for frequency response, distortion and impedance charts." that really made me laugh .