Crossovers Rebuilt Night and Day!!!
jim 249
Posts: 347
:biggrin:Hi All; I just completed the crossover rebuild in my 2.3TL's. The
difference is night and day. I used Mills resistors and Dayton caps.
The highs and mids opened up a lot, like a
thick veil has been lifted from the speakers. Any one looking to upgrade
any speakers should first do the crossovers and then think about
changing the drivers. After listening to mine, the driver replacement
is out for me except the one bad MF-6510, available from Polk for
$48.00. I learned this trick for fixing stripped holes in particle
board after I stripped a couple of holes while assembling my ping pong
table. Remove the screw and start putting toothpicks in the stripped
hole breaking each one off until the bad hole is full, then reinstall
the screw and it will tighten right down. I did the same thing for the
bad passive holes on the speakers except I used just one toothpick and
hot glued it in, then snipping off the ends with wire cutters. All but
one held because that one hole was really stripped out. On that one I
jammed in two toothpicks and broke them off and reinstalled the screw
and it tightened right down. A real neat quick fix that works. Thanks
for all the help you guys have given me on this site! Polkers are all
great!!!!!!:biggrin:
difference is night and day. I used Mills resistors and Dayton caps.
The highs and mids opened up a lot, like a
thick veil has been lifted from the speakers. Any one looking to upgrade
any speakers should first do the crossovers and then think about
changing the drivers. After listening to mine, the driver replacement
is out for me except the one bad MF-6510, available from Polk for
$48.00. I learned this trick for fixing stripped holes in particle
board after I stripped a couple of holes while assembling my ping pong
table. Remove the screw and start putting toothpicks in the stripped
hole breaking each one off until the bad hole is full, then reinstall
the screw and it will tighten right down. I did the same thing for the
bad passive holes on the speakers except I used just one toothpick and
hot glued it in, then snipping off the ends with wire cutters. All but
one held because that one hole was really stripped out. On that one I
jammed in two toothpicks and broke them off and reinstalled the screw
and it tightened right down. A real neat quick fix that works. Thanks
for all the help you guys have given me on this site! Polkers are all
great!!!!!!:biggrin:
Post edited by jim 249 on
Comments
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Good to know. I used Dayton caps as well and they were an improvement over the 20 year old caps. Didn't even need to break them in
and they have not improved or changed in the last 2 years. The price is right too. '65 427 Shelby Cobra
'72 Triumph TR-6
__________________
'88 Polk SDA SRS 1.2, with upgraded XO caps and Erse SDA inductors
'86 Polk SDA CRS+
'84 Polk Monitor 10A (Peerless tweeters)
'05 HSU VTF-3 Sub (Original OEM)
'20 HSU VTF-3 Sub (three more, 100% cloned)
'93 Carver TFM-35
'88 Carver M-1.0t
'88 Adcom GFT-555
'88 Adcom GFP-555
'88 Adcom GFA-555 (upgraded/restored)
'88 Adcom GFA-555 (a second one upgraded/restored)
'05 Onkyo DV-555 media
'89 Fosgate 360 Digital Space Matrix
'89 Fosgate 360 Digital Space Matrix, internal surround amp bridged to drive only a center channel
'91 Kenwood Basic M1D Amp
'89 Pioneer Laser Disc media
'89 Sony SuperBeta HiFi media
One PGA2310 based custom built remote volume control
Four Polk T-15's
Four Polk TSi-200's
Four Polk TSi-100's
Two Polk CS-10's -
I intend to use the Dayton caps when I do the upgrade. I've already upgraded to the RDO-194 tweeters. I hope the Dayton caps are a good match for them.
- SDA 2BTL · Sonicaps · Mills resistors · RDO-198s · New gaskets · H-nuts · Erse inductors · BH5 · Dynamat
- Crossover upgrades by westmassguy
- Marantz 1504 AVR (front speaker pre-outs to Adcom 555)
- Adcom GFA-555 amp · Upgrades & speaker protection added by OldmanSRS
- Pioneer DV-610AV DVD/CD player
- SDA CRS+ · Hidden away in the closet
- SDA 2BTL · Sonicaps · Mills resistors · RDO-198s · New gaskets · H-nuts · Erse inductors · BH5 · Dynamat
-
IMO, it is well worth the extra money to go with Sonicap's.
The toothpick trick is ok in a jam. A better and longer lasting method is to drill out the stripped screw hole, cut a wooden dowel of the appropriate diameter to size, glue it in place, drill a pilot hole and it's as good, if not better, than new.then think about changing the drivers.
Unless a driver is bad, why would you think about changing them?Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Unless a driver is bad, why would you think about changing them?
I have read many times on here of people upgrading their tweeters to the newer RDO's. The ones I have sound great with the rebuilt xovers. -
Tweeters are not drivers and the RD0's are a vast improvement over the originals. You should try them.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Tweeters are not drivers
I would think any thing that produces sound would be considered a driver? -
I learned this trick for fixing stripped holes in particle board after I stripped a couple of holes while assembling my ping pong table. Remove the screw and start putting toothpicks in the stripped
hole breaking each one off until the bad hole is full, then reinstall
the screw and it will tighten right down. I did the same thing for the
bad passive holes on the speakers except I used just one toothpick and
hot glued it in, then snipping off the ends with wire cutters. All but
one held because that one hole was really stripped out. On that one I
jammed in two toothpicks and broke them off and reinstalled the screw
and it tightened right down. A real neat quick fix that works. Thanks
for all the help you guys have given me on this site! Polkers are all
great!!!!!!:biggrin:
The best fix for stripped holes in SDA's is getting yourself a set of Larry's driver rings. They run about 100 bucks for the 2.3's, and the improvement in performance over the old way of mounting them is stunning to say the least. When you mount them, get some Armacell insulation tape.. (pn# TAP18230) and cut it into 1/2" wide strips and run the strip around the driver in the same place as the stock gaskets. Your jaw will hit the floor when you experience the much deeper, tighter bottom end. You will also notic much more deatil in the mids....The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Nope. There's tweeters, there's mid-drivers, there's woofers, etc. Don't want to take my word for it, Google it.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
They're all drivers. Tweeter, mids, and woofers are just subdivisions. A mid can be used a woofer or a woofer can be used as a mid, so on.
It's like how we call each driver, tweeter, a speaker as well. But I believe the word transducer and driver can be used interchangeably but the word driver seems to be exclusive to the audio world. Honestly, it's all semantics but I can be very wrong or very right.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
I was wondering why you swapped out the resistors as well. I was under the impression that resistors never go bad and are really constant factors which don't vary in the XO circuit.
However changing out old caps seems to be across the board the thing to do. Did you replace all the caps or just the electrolytics? I was planning to just replace the electrolytics and leave everything else intact and stock.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
IMO, it is well worth the extra money to go with Sonicap's.
Absolutely.
Here is a pic of myself after upgrading to the Sonicap's:
I think they are 15% off right now.Testing
Testing
Testing -
I was wondering why you swapped out the resistors as well. I was under the impression that resistors never go bad and are really constant factors which don't vary in the XO circuit.
However changing out old caps seems to be across the board the thing to do. Did you replace all the caps or just the electrolytics? I was planning to just replace the electrolytics and leave everything else intact and stock.
Replace all of them.
Testing
Testing
Testing -
They're all drivers. Tweeter, mids, and woofers are just subdivisions. A mid can be used a woofer or a woofer can be used as a mid, so on.
Eh, ever try using a tweeter for a woofer? GTFOH.It's like how we call each driver, tweeter, a speaker as well. But I believe the word transducer and driver can be used interchangeably but the word driver seems to be exclusive to the audio world. Honestly, it's all semantics but I can be very wrong or very right.
How about silly.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I was wondering why you swapped out the resistors as well. I was under the impression that resistors never go bad and are really constant factors which don't vary in the XO circuit.
Because wire wound, non-inductive resistors sound better.However changing out old caps seems to be across the board the thing to do. Did you replace all the caps or just the electrolytics? I was planning to just replace the electrolytics and leave everything else intact and stock.
Kinda like rebuilding half of an engine.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Eh, ever try using a tweeter for a woofer? GTFOH.
How about silly.
Driver=transducer=speaker. they can be used interchangeably. I found it odd you can call a tweeter a speaker, but it does happen and people do use that terminology. It's not wrong. You're not absolutely right.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
Because wire wound, non-inductive resistors sound better.
Kinda like rebuilding half of an engine.
More like replacing the parts that have gone bad. I've been under the impression that only electrolytic caps need replacing due to the oxidation of the chemicals inside the cap making it go bad. Other caps usually don't need to be replaced because they don't go bad as soon as the electrolytics.
I do understand that resistors with no inductance will suffer from less unwanted inductance, but is this really audible? The unwanted inductance seems like such a small factor to me What kind of inductors are in use in the current crossover if not tightly toleranced resistors with minimal inductance in the first place? Why not just use two resistors in parallel which would attain the same effect. I'm just saying be weary of "high end" crossover parts, but it sounds better what's to stop you from sinking a couple bucks into a resistor. I'm not quite familiar with the resistors in the speaker so I can't really comment on it.
Has anyone replaced the caps then replace the resistors. I feel that most people usually mod their entire XO at the same time (don't want to take it out then place it back in) and the benefits of the new caps might obscure the small benefits from replacing resistors.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
I've heard lots of audio geeks refer to tweeters as drivers. I've seen (in catalogs and such) and heard people refer to some expanded range drivers as mid-tweeters. And, I'm pretty sure the MW in all of Polk's driver model numbers stands for mid-woofer, not mid-driver. But F1's fingers cramp up if he goes longer than a day without arguing over something random and pointless on the forum, so I would expect this tangent to dominate this thread for another 5 or 6 pages of posts.
Anyway, I just put some Dayton caps, Mills resistors and 194's in a pair of 5Jr's, and I'm guessing it is the tweeters more than the caps, but the speakers sound different and better now. They're mellower in the high end, and I think that has to be the tweeter rather than the caps. I'll be doing another upgrade with Sonicaps, but I will say this for the Daytons... if you get the 1% you don't have to worry about trying to get someone to match them for you, and I haven't noticed a significant change in sound after the first 10 hours of use. The Sonicaps are reputed to have a roller-coaster burn-in that takes over 100 hours before you know what you got. -
On3s&Z3r0s wrote: »I've heard lots of audio geeks refer to tweeters as drivers. I've seen (in catalogs and such) and heard people refer to some expanded range drivers as mid-tweeters. And, I'm pretty sure the MW in all of Polk's driver model numbers stands for mid-woofer, not mid-driver. But F1's fingers cramp up if he goes longer than a day without arguing over something random and pointless on the forum, so I would expect this tangent to dominate this thread for another 5 or 6 pages of posts.
Anyway, I just put some Dayton caps, Mills resistors and 194's in a pair of 5Jr's, and I'm guessing it is the tweeters more than the caps, but the speakers sound different and better now. They're mellower in the high end, and I think that has to be the tweeter rather than the caps. I'll be doing another upgrade with Sonicaps, but I will say this for the Daytons... if you get the 1% you don't have to worry about trying to get someone to match them for you, and I haven't noticed a significant change in sound after the first 10 hours of use. The Sonicaps are reputed to have a roller-coaster burn-in that takes over 100 hours before you know what you got.
Let's just leave it at semantics and move on.
But that's very cool, replacing the caps. Did you get a chance to measure the caps and resistors with a good DCM? I've heard the non-inductive resistors from Dayton aren't actually wired as a non-inductive resistor should be, reverse wound but instead they're just normally wound. It just has very low inductance. I wonder if anyone out there has tried a metal film resistor or just using a dayton resistor in parallel to match the "performance" of the mill's resistor. Honestly I'm not really convinced of all the resistor hooplah and millihenries affecting the sound.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
I was wondering why you swapped out the resistors as well. I was under the impression that resistors never go bad and are really constant factors which don't vary in the XO circuit.
However changing out old caps seems to be across the board the thing to do. Did you replace all the caps or just the electrolytics? I was planning to just replace the electrolytics and leave everything else intact and stock.
That's what I did with the caps. Measured the stock resistors and they all came in under 5% tolerance. I'm not worried about the miniscule amount of inductance they might have and, like you, don't think it's audible.
If a person is going to the extreme of replacing all the caps and resistors in the XO to insure the very best possible reproduction, they may as well change all of them from the laser pickup to the output stage of the amp to improve the entire audio chain up to the level of the XO.
For me it's a matter of economics and the point of diminishing return but hey, I wont spend $80 on an HDMI cable either.
No offense to anyone who wants to attempt to take it to the next level.'65 427 Shelby Cobra
'72 Triumph TR-6
__________________
'88 Polk SDA SRS 1.2, with upgraded XO caps and Erse SDA inductors
'86 Polk SDA CRS+
'84 Polk Monitor 10A (Peerless tweeters)
'05 HSU VTF-3 Sub (Original OEM)
'20 HSU VTF-3 Sub (three more, 100% cloned)
'93 Carver TFM-35
'88 Carver M-1.0t
'88 Adcom GFT-555
'88 Adcom GFP-555
'88 Adcom GFA-555 (upgraded/restored)
'88 Adcom GFA-555 (a second one upgraded/restored)
'05 Onkyo DV-555 media
'89 Fosgate 360 Digital Space Matrix
'89 Fosgate 360 Digital Space Matrix, internal surround amp bridged to drive only a center channel
'91 Kenwood Basic M1D Amp
'89 Pioneer Laser Disc media
'89 Sony SuperBeta HiFi media
One PGA2310 based custom built remote volume control
Four Polk T-15's
Four Polk TSi-200's
Four Polk TSi-100's
Two Polk CS-10's -
What amazes me is at the end of that roller coaster ride the people who install them always say the roller coaster stops in the very best sounding place. Just doesn't seem possible that it would be that way every time.On3s&Z3r0s wrote: »The Sonicaps are reputed to have a roller-coaster burn-in that takes over 100 hours before you know what you got.- SDA 2BTL · Sonicaps · Mills resistors · RDO-198s · New gaskets · H-nuts · Erse inductors · BH5 · Dynamat
- Crossover upgrades by westmassguy
- Marantz 1504 AVR (front speaker pre-outs to Adcom 555)
- Adcom GFA-555 amp · Upgrades & speaker protection added by OldmanSRS
- Pioneer DV-610AV DVD/CD player
- SDA CRS+ · Hidden away in the closet
- SDA 2BTL · Sonicaps · Mills resistors · RDO-198s · New gaskets · H-nuts · Erse inductors · BH5 · Dynamat
-
... Did you get a chance to measure the caps and resistors with a good DCM? I've heard the non-inductive resistors from Dayton aren't actually wired as a non-inductive resistor should be, reverse wound but instead they're just normally wound. It just has very low inductance. I wonder if anyone out there has tried a metal film resistor or just using a dayton resistor in parallel to match the "performance" of the mill's resistor. Honestly I'm not really convinced of all the resistor hooplah and millihenries affecting the sound.
I did take the easy measurements for the resistors and caps (just resistance and capacitance). The Mills resistors didn't measure any more accurate than the stock resistors. In the 5Jr, they're a 1 ohm resistor and both stock and replacements all measured at 1.1 ohm. The stock caps measured 12.29 and 12.74 uF. The Dayton replacements measured 12.0 and 12.01! The Sonicaps I got for a different speaker project came in a bag marked "12uF 200V matched" and they measured 12.18 and 12.52. I know the performance of the caps has to do also with many factors unrelated to their capacitance measurements, but if I had it to do over again I would probably go with a different brand of caps with a tighter tolerance. I haven't heard the Sonicaps yet, so I might change my tune (so to speak) after that happens, but for now I'm a little disappointed with Sonic Craft's idea of what "matched" means. -
On3s&Z3r0s wrote: »I did take the easy measurements for the resistors and caps (just resistance and capacitance). The Mills resistors didn't measure any more accurate than the stock resistors. In the 5Jr, they're a 1 ohm resistor and both stock and replacements all measured at 1.1 ohm. The stock caps measured 12.29 and 12.74 uF. The Dayton replacements measured 12.0 and 12.01! The Sonicaps I got for a different speaker project came in a bag marked "12uF 200V matched" and they measured 12.18 and 12.52. I know the performance of the caps has to do also with many factors unrelated to their capacitance measurements, but if I had it to do over again I would probably go with a different brand of caps with a tighter tolerance. I haven't heard the Sonicaps yet, so I might change my tune (so to speak) after that happens, but for now I'm a little disappointed with Sonic Craft's idea of what "matched" means.
Hmm... I haven't had the chance to measure any Sonicaps with my Fluke, but that doesn't seem too good. Should've asked for a return or more caps for your trouble!
Honestly, I'm not at all convinced about the effects of different resistors, just put me in the "as long as the resistor works right group." Does the OP know what kind of resistor he replaced?2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
Compare a mills resistor to a mundorf mox resistor and I bet you will hear a difference.
And On3s&Z3r0s,You should call elliot and tell him your caps are not matched and maybe he will take care of it for you.SDA-2BTL with custom IC
Adcom 565 monoblocks--Monarchy Audio M-10 preamp
Theta Data Basic Transport--Stello DA100 Signature DAC--Camelot Dragon Pro2 MK III
Harman Kardon T-55c TT
DH Labs Q-10 Signature Speaker Cables With Furez silver plated copper bananas
Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver Reference AES/EBU
Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver i2s digital cable
4 Furutech FP-314Ag with FI-11cu Plugs/FI-11AG IECs--- Power Cords
DH LABS REVELATIONS ICs-amps
Revelation Audio Labs Paradise cryo-silver ICs-Source to pre -
They are matched caps. Sonicap's are stated to have a tolerance of 5% and usually are closer to 2%. If you wanted 1% tolerance, you have to ask for them.
As for the resistors. You act as though a couple of bucks per Mills is going to put you in the poor house. Really?
Since some of you seem to be rather new at this, maybe you should give the guys that are not the benefit of the doubt that we actually know WTF we're taking about.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Since some of you seem to be rather new at this, maybe you should give the guys that are not the benefit of the doubt that we actually know WTF we're taking about.[/QUOTE]
Several of us are very new but there is a very interesting discussion going on in this thread. No need for WTFs and GTFOHs.
TO ERR IS HUMAN. TO FORGIVE IS CANINE. -
And some of us might be new to this forum but have 37+ years of practical experience in audio and electronics. We enjoy the discussion and listening to others explain their results without being insulted. We enjoy the debate and think it is our right to bring our views to the table while be treated with a modicum of respect.'65 427 Shelby Cobra
'72 Triumph TR-6
__________________
'88 Polk SDA SRS 1.2, with upgraded XO caps and Erse SDA inductors
'86 Polk SDA CRS+
'84 Polk Monitor 10A (Peerless tweeters)
'05 HSU VTF-3 Sub (Original OEM)
'20 HSU VTF-3 Sub (three more, 100% cloned)
'93 Carver TFM-35
'88 Carver M-1.0t
'88 Adcom GFT-555
'88 Adcom GFP-555
'88 Adcom GFA-555 (upgraded/restored)
'88 Adcom GFA-555 (a second one upgraded/restored)
'05 Onkyo DV-555 media
'89 Fosgate 360 Digital Space Matrix
'89 Fosgate 360 Digital Space Matrix, internal surround amp bridged to drive only a center channel
'91 Kenwood Basic M1D Amp
'89 Pioneer Laser Disc media
'89 Sony SuperBeta HiFi media
One PGA2310 based custom built remote volume control
Four Polk T-15's
Four Polk TSi-200's
Four Polk TSi-100's
Two Polk CS-10's -
Respect is earned and I haven't insulted anyone yet, but I'm open to that possibility.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
37+ years of audio experience and you still believe all resistors of the same value sound the same, come on now.And some of us might be new to this forum but have 37+ years of practical experience in audio and electronics."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
They are matched caps. Sonicap's are stated to have a tolerance of 5% and usually are closer to 2%. If you wanted 1% tolerance, you have to ask for them.
As for the resistors. You act as though a couple of bucks per Mills is going to put you in the poor house. Really?
Since some of you seem to be rather new at this, maybe you should give the guys that are not the benefit of the doubt that we actually know WTF we're taking about.
Well why would you want to overpay for a part that costs cents on the dollar, it's just common sense.
As anyone knows, you often times can't really trust your ears. And why would I want to trust someone else's ears?2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
37+ years of audio experience and you still believe all resistors of the same value sound the same, come on now.
Resistors of the same resistance values differ. I believe he knows that there are different types of resistors used in different applications. Mills resistors use a different type of winding than other resistors to decrease capacitance and inductance. However the amount of inductance added and the amount of capacitance of a regular resistor pales in comparison to the capacitance and the inductance of the circuit.
Caps on the other hand are a little more dubious IMO. Resistors don't have the same variability that caps do. As for most people with older speaks, it's a great idea to change out all the older electrolytics, unless anyone has any objections? Unless someone can sway me to change out all the caps, only caps that are going to be changed in my newly acquired speaks are going to be the electrolytics. Course I'll check all the caps and resistors to be of the proper value.2Ch Tube Audio Convert
