Help selecting satellites?

thetawave2

My current system is an Onkyo TX-DS787 HT receiver pushing a pair of Monitor 40's and a Monitor 30 on the center channel, supported by a Cambridge Soundworks Basscube 15. I use it primarily for music at moderate to loud volumes. I've been playing around with the setup lately and have been struggling to find a balance between harshness and dullness in the treble.
Then, my friend let me borrow a pair of Polk RM2350's he yanked from his parents' home theater. These have filled out the treble quite nicely. This is only a temporary fix, however, as he isn't willing to pawn off his parents' speakers. I was wondering if any of you have suggestions for similar speakers (Polk or otherwise) that I could add to my system.

thetawave2

Other suggestions or observations pertaining to my setup are also more than welcome. I do know a little bit about audio but I'm always excited to learn.
For example, I have the Monitor 30 on its side because of space restrictions. My roommate insists that this is probably messing up its dispersion. Is this a matter of concern?

TECHNOKID

thetawave2 wrote: »

Other suggestions or observations pertaining to my setup are also more than welcome. I do know a little bit about audio but I'm always excited to learn.
For example, I have the Monitor 30 on its side because of space restrictions. My roommate insists that this is probably messing up its dispersion. Is this a matter of concern?

Welcome to Club Polk! IMO, your roommate is right about the Monitor 30. Your first step would be to move those speakers out of that shelving as you are shoking them! Your best bet would be to put them on speaker stands and if not possible, then mount them on the wall.

Get a proper center channel (IE: CS1 or CS2, preferably the CS2) and that can be left on your shelf unit. If you so wish, you can buy an extra Monitor 30 and use both of them as surround. Same applies here, use the Monitor 30s on stands or on walls.

Make sure you calibrate your Onkio properly for the speakers. Sometime manual calibration is the best way as it provide you with personal tweeking to adjust as perfectly as possible to your room and taste.

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/specs/recent/monitor30/

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/specs/recent/monitor40/

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/products/recent/monitor40/

Good luck!
TK

thetawave2

TECHNOKID wrote: »

Your first step would be to move those speakers out of that shelving as you are shoking them! Your best bet would be to put them on speaker stands and if not possible, then mount them on the wall.

Get a proper center channel (IE: CS1 or CS2, preferably the CS2) and that can be left on your shelf unit.

As far as being cramped on the shelf, there is no back to the shelving unit and it's out a few inches from the wall so air circulation from the ports is not an issue. If, however, you mean that they are placed too close together, I agree with you there. However, I don't know how I could mount my speakers on the wall since it is cinder block. Stands don't appeal to me at this point, especially because they would only give me a foot or so with the system sandwiched as it is between a couch and the subwoofer in the corner. The sound did sound very narrow to me, but adding the RM2350's seemed to widen the soundstage some. I'm considering mounting them (or their replacements) with adhesive hooks about two feet on either side of the TV.
If it's important that I get the Monitor 30 upright, I suppose I could just as easily put the receiver on the bottom shelf. I'm only using it as a center because I ordered one, mistakenly thinking I'd ordered a pair! Oops! I'm not too interested in purchasing a dedicated center, though. I know a center carries the heavy loads in home theater applications, but I primarily use this system for music and used the channel levels on my receiver to bias the sound away from it and toward its bigger brothers. If there's another reason for me to replace my Monitor 30 with a center, I'd be happy to hear about it!

Thank you very much for the input! I appreciate all the advice.

TECHNOKID

thetawave2 wrote: »

As far as being cramped on the shelf, there is no back to the shelving unit and it's out a few inches from the wall so air circulation from the ports is not an issue. If, however, you mean that they are placed too close together, I agree with you there. However, I don't know how I could mount my speakers on the wall since it is cinder block. Stands don't appeal to me at this point, especially because they would only give me a foot or so with the system sandwiched as it is between a couch and the subwoofer in the corner. The sound did sound very narrow to me, but adding the RM2350's seemed to widen the soundstage some. I'm considering mounting them (or their replacements) with adhesive hooks about two feet on either side of the TV.
If it's important that I get the Monitor 30 upright, I suppose I could just as easily put the receiver on the bottom shelf. I'm only using it as a center because I ordered one, mistakenly thinking I'd ordered a pair! Oops! I'm not too interested in purchasing a dedicated center, though. I know a center carries the heavy loads in home theater applications, but I primarily use this system for music and used the channel levels on my receiver to bias the sound away from it and toward its bigger brothers. If there's another reason for me to replace my Monitor 30 with a center, I'd be happy to hear about it!

Thank you very much for the input! I appreciate all the advice.

Fair enough, I tought you were trying to create a 3.1 channels set-up. Since music is the goal I undestand and agree a center channel is not necessary nor desired. You should however get an extra Monitor 30 and set them both properly. You need to find a way to widen your sound stage. IMO, this is your problem. Placement is critical and the harshness and dullness of your highs may well be coming from a poor placement issue. Now, when in your sitting position, would you consider the tweeter of your 40s to be at hear level? If not, maybe when adding the small satellite somewhat covers for this (maybe hear level is somewhere between the top satellite and your 40s?), experiment placement.... Can't you find a way to attach or mount your speakers to the side of your shelving unit (a little imagination, creative thinking might go a long way)?

intangible

You definitely need to get them farther apart; you are killing your sound stage by sticking them so close together. I wouldn't waste too much time or money trying to make those sound better, however. If I were in your spot, I would look to sell all three speakers while they still have most of their value and replace them with a pair you could stand on the floor to either side. You should be able to flip them for enough to pick up a nice pair of speakers on the used market that will sound much better. If you are just listening to music (and especially if you are going to arrange them like you have them now) there is no need for a center channel.

thetawave2

TECHNOKID wrote: »

You should however get an extra Monitor 30 and set them both properly. You need to find a way to widen your sound stage. IMO, this is your problem. Placement is critical and the harshness and dullness of your highs may well be coming from a poor placement issue. Now, when in your sitting position, would you consider the tweeter of your 40s to be at hear level? If not, maybe when adding the small satellite somewhat covers for this (maybe hear level is somewhere between the top satellite and your 40s?), experiment placement.... Can't you find a way to attach or mount your speakers to the side of your shelving unit (a little imagination, creative thinking might go a long way)?

I'm reluctant to just buy another Monitor 30, place the pair as satellites and call it a day. When I compared the Monitors with the satellites, I found the satellites were a lot more crisp and clean in the highs. Using the Monitor 30's as satellites would help the soundstage but not the treble.
I do know what you mean about the placement affecting treble response; in an attempt to get the speakers farther apart, I had them on the floor at one point and this noticeably hampered the treble. Now, the tweeters should be at roughly ear height, if just slightly lower. From what I remember, the top woofer should be dead on. I'll check in on how accurate that statement is when I get back to my room this afternoon.

I definitely do need to widen the soundstage. I'm really trying to get a more enveloping sound. I'll be able to purchase the hooks I need to wall mount those satellites soon and I'll be sure to let you know how that goes! I do like the idea of attaching the 40's to the sides of the shelf unit, but I just don't have the materials or time to do it right now. If I get my hands on some scrap wood, I'll let you know!

thetawave2

intangible wrote: »

If I were in your spot, I would look to sell all three speakers while they still have most of their value and replace them with a pair you could stand on the floor to either side.

Under different circumstances, I would definitely agree with you. The Monitors have served me very well, but they certainly aren't the last pair of speakers I'm going to buy. However, at this point, I'm not looking to upgrade. At my level of experience and my current needs and living conditions (and lack of income), pretty satisfied with them. I'm getting my younger brother interested in audio and when I do upgrade (probably when I graduate from college), these will likely go to him. So, I'm hanging on to them for now.

I agree that the soundstage does need work though. My options with the Monitors are very limited since the space itself is very narrow and bounded by the subwoofer on one side and a couch on another and I can't think of a feasible way to wall-mount them. I'm planning on buying adhesive hooks (since I can't undertake construction projects on cinder block walls belonging to my college!) and hanging the RM2350 satellites a foot or two out on either side of the TV. Do you think that will help?
The current setup is temporary and certainly not perfect. I'll have more options when I go back home at the end of the semester.

thetawave2

thetawave2 wrote: »

Now, when in your sitting position, would you consider the tweeter of your 40s to be at hear level?

The top woofers are slightly below ear level, which puts the tweeters a bit lower than they should be, but I can't imagine all of the treble deficiency can be attributed to this.

TECHNOKID

thetawave2 wrote: »

The top woofers are slightly below ear level, which puts the tweeters a bit lower than they should be, but I can't imagine all of the treble deficiency can be attributed to this.

Agreed, ore likley the cramped soundstage. All your speakers seems to be choking in some sort of mono block. I understand and respect your budget concerns while in college (it definitely has priority right now ). Try to focus on your room and any potential move around of your speakers as I am convinced you can gain some SQ by doing so. Any other way your room could be set (moved around) in order to gain the appropriate room your speakers need to perform. Also, have you tried to tweek your receiver (i am not talking about treble and/or bass but rather the internal settings)? If this is out of wack, it can definitely affect the frequency range available to your speakers.

thetawave2

TECHNOKID wrote: »

Agreed, ore likley the cramped soundstage. All your speakers seems to be choking in some sort of mono block. I understand and respect your budget concerns while in college (it definitely has priority right now ). Try to focus on your room and any potential move around of your speakers as I am convinced you can gain some SQ by doing so. Any other way your room could be set (moved around) in order to gain the appropriate room your speakers need to perform. Also, have you tried to tweek your receiver (i am not talking about treble and/or bass but rather the internal settings)? If this is out of wack, it can definitely affect the frequency range available to your speakers.

My friends and I observed that no one ever uses the end seat on the couch closest to the wall so I'm going to put another shelving unit alongside the one I already have set up; this will allow me to place the speakers much farther apart from one another. I can definitely see this helping with soundstage but I just don't think the Monitors have it in them to produce the kind of crisp treble I'm looking for.

I'm not very experienced with receiver settings. There is a menu where I can input speaker distance, and this has helped in the past. Is that what you mean, or is there something even more advanced I can do?

Putting them farther apart and tweaking settings on the receiver will definitely help some, but I think I'm going to look into satellites to make my setup a bit more crisp. Polk is an obvious choice, given that I'm very satisfied with the satellites I'm borrowing at the moment. Klipsch was another idea I had but I don't know much about that brand. My friend suggested Mirage to me the other day and from what I've heard and read they would be a good buy for me. Any thoughts?

mdaudioguy

I thought this was another DirecTV vs DISH Network thread!

Might as well throw my two cents in while I'm here.

Keep the Monitor 30 as a center channel, and you're correct about turning it upright - there's no reason why it can't function as a center channel. Spread the 40s out further to either side. Read the manuals that came with these speakers for setup tips, or look here: http://www.polkaudio.com/education/index.php. You'll learn a lot.

And, please, please, please remove the blue tape from the edges of your speakers. It totally screws with the sound. Especially the treble.

thetawave2

mdaudioguy wrote: »

And, please, please, please remove the blue tape from the edges of your speakers. It totally screws with the sound. Especially the treble.

I was totally unaware of that. They're taped to protect the edges a bit when we bring them to friends' places for parties haha
Next year my friend should be finally buying some PA's so he can call himself a DJ so they'll be safe at the end of the semester. I suppose I could take the tape off and just be extra careful with them if sound quality is an issue.

mdaudioguy

Just yanking your chain. Protecting the edges is a good idea if you're moving them a lot. Parties, on the other hand, can be hazardous to speakers. Especially smaller ones. You have been warned.

thetawave2

mdaudioguy wrote: »

Just yanking your chain.

I read this AFTER taking all the tape off, of course :rolleyes:
Ah well. I kind of missed how they looked without it. We're probably done with our more dangerous shows anyway.

thetawave2

Here's an update on the setup. We sacrificed an unused seat on the couch in order to squeeze in some more shelving. This allows my left and right channels to be about four feet apart, a good increase from the previous two feet. The soundstage is improved greatly and the treble of the Monitors seems to be a bit better, no thanks to a certain sarcastic quip about taped edges. Still, the satellites give a vibrancy to the highs that is missing with the trio of Monitors alone.

TECHNOKID

Do you have your user manual handy?

TECHNOKID

1. make sure your audio selector button is set to automatic (p 9 of your user manual)

TECHNOKID

Find your bass?treble selector button and adjust to your liking. I wouldn't be surprised this gives you some drastic changes...


Are you still around?

TECHNOKID

Your listening mode button should be either in direct or stereo mode (try the both and see what is best...).

I believe you are no longer around but I guess you should be able to play with those settings sometime tomorrow...

thetawave2

I am here but I wasn't keeping up with the thread.
Tomorrow I'll be able to do some experimenting without waking up my roommates!

TECHNOKID

BTW, the audio button is also available on your remote.


Starting at p 28, you should check your OSD settings. P 30 particularly, you should redo your speaker set-up and go through level calibration. Since you have a sub, you should set your monitor 40s to small.

I'm guessing for optimal performance, your input set-up should be set for theater-dimensional.

Now, on p 40 the tone control sub-menu will allow you to set your bass and treble levels to your desired listening levels. Normally 0db would be reference but you can adjust to your desired level.

On p 54, pay attention again to the paragraph about the bass and treble.

Unfortunately, I don't know much about Onkyo receivers so the points I gave you to check are fairly basic to most receivers. Just in case you do not have or find your user manual, find it in the link below;

http://www.intl.onkyo.com/downloads/manuals/pdf/tx-ds787_manual_e.pdf

Get familiar with it and try tweeking the adjustments however, before changing settings make sure you mark down the original settings so if it worsen rather than get better, you can go back to the original setting.

Good luck!
TK

TECHNOKID

thetawave2 wrote: »

I am here but I wasn't keeping up with the thread.
Tomorrow I'll be able to do some experimenting without waking up my roommates!

Then good night, I am working early today and as usual I havent't been to wise about getting my sleep. We will sure cross path sometime tomorrow. I wouldn't be surprise that after you do your OSD settings to morrow that your Monitor 40s improve greatly (IMO, your treble setting might well be in the negative for your fronts). Make sure you take those satellites out of the loop in order to fully concnetrate on the Monitor 40s SQ as you do your settings...

Cheers!
TK

thetawave2

I did know about the tone control settings. Nothing funky going on there.
Last night, I used the "stereo" mode for the first time since changing the speaker positioning. I was surprised at the treble response... much more detail! In fact, it was quite great at the low volumes I was using last night. However, the sound is a bit too bright and even harsh in sibilants and cymbal noises and the like at higher volumes. The "Studio-Mix" DSP mode I have been using (which employs the Monitor 30 and the RM2350s in addition to the Monitor 40s) seems to mellow this out a bit and give the sound more volume. But now, compared to the Stereo mode, Studio Mix seems to sacrifice a bit of detail as well. I tried using the treble tone control to adjust for the harshness in Stereo mode but it seemed to hurt more than help, quieting the treble without really taking the edge off.
Any thoughts?

TECHNOKID

thetawave2 wrote: »

I did know about the tone control settings. Nothing funky going on there.
Last night, I used the "stereo" mode for the first time since changing the speaker positioning. I was surprised at the treble response... much more detail! In fact, it was quite great at the low volumes I was using last night. However, the sound is a bit too bright and even harsh in sibilants and cymbal noises and the like at higher volumes. The "Studio-Mix" DSP mode I have been using (which employs the Monitor 30 and the RM2350s in addition to the Monitor 40s) seems to mellow this out a bit and give the sound more volume. But now, compared to the Stereo mode, Studio Mix seems to sacrifice a bit of detail as well. I tried using the treble tone control to adjust for the harshness in Stereo mode but it seemed to hurt more than help, quieting the treble without really taking the edge off.
Any thoughts?

Lots of experimenting for you to do in the OSD so carry on tweaking Have you redone calibration yet as I proposed? If not, you may dispose :biggrin:

thetawave2

I did adjust the speaker distance settings. The manual seemed to suggest you really only need level calibration for speakers that aren't equidistant from listening position. I suppose I might as well give it a shot, but for now I'm going to spare my roommates who are doing their homework in the common room the pink noise haha

TECHNOKID

wrote: »

I did adjust the speaker distance settings. The manual seemed to suggest you really only need level calibration for speakers that aren't equidistant from listening position. I suppose I might as well give it a shot, but for now I'm going to spare my roommates who are doing their homework in the common room the pink noise haha

You are a very caring individual thetawave2 (second time you mention being concerned for your roommates), good on you. I wish there would be more people with such a caring/positive attitude.

Now, you have nothing to loose and everything to gain going through your OSD settings as IMO, it has to be some setting causing your problem. You took the time to redo your soundstage and a few settings and the problem persist. If at all possible, you should try those Monitor 40s on a different amp to see if the problem goes or persist, If problem persist than some wrong with your speakers/cables... On the other hand, if speakers work fine on the other amp then, you seriously look at the problem being on your AVR (settings or AVR it self). Why don't you swap Monitors and satellites and see if problem moves with the speaker or if it is that specific output?

Cheers!
TK

mdaudioguy

Things look MUCH better in your second photo. I bet it sounds better, too. I still don't understand what's going on with the satellites... What receiver outputs are they connected to - "B"? Surround? They're probably doing more to detract from the sound where they're sitting right now, IMNSHO.

thetawave2

TECHNOKID wrote: »

You are a very caring individual thetawave2 (second time you mention being concerned for your roommates), good on you. I wish there would be more people with such a caring/positive attitude.

Now, you have nothing to loose and everything to gain going through your OSD settings as IMO, it has to be some setting causing your problem. You took the time to redo your soundstage and a few settings and the problem persist. If at all possible, you should try those Monitor 40s on a different amp to see if the problem goes or persist, If problem persist than some wrong with your speakers/cables... On the other hand, if speakers work fine on the other amp then, you seriously look at the problem being on your AVR (settings or AVR it self). Why don't you swap Monitors and satellites and see if problem moves with the speaker or if it is that specific output?

Cheers!
TK

It isn't that there is a problem anymore, certainly not anything that makes me think there's something wrong with my equipment. The soundstage is much better and treble response and detail are greatly improved. I'm fairly satisfied now, much more so than I was only a couple days ago. At this point, I'm just fine-tuning and trying to find what's best and get my speakers to perform as best they can. Controlling the OSD from listening position with the remote has helped a lot! I've found that Stereo or Direct works best at quiet volumes, 3-Stereo (Monitor 40s on L/R, 30 on Center, no surrounds) with Bass at +2db and Treble at -2db works quite nicely at moderate volumes, and Studio-Mix mellows out the harshness at high volumes. I've decided I'm not going to buy new speakers at this point.
I'll definitely keep tinkering with my setup, but for now I'm just going to give it a rest for a while. Too much critical listening makes me confused!

Thank you so much for all the help I've learned a lot with your encouragement.

thetawave2

mdaudioguy wrote: »

Things look MUCH better in your second photo. I bet it sounds better, too. I still don't understand what's going on with the satellites... What receiver outputs are they connected to - "B"? Surround? They're probably doing more to detract from the sound where they're sitting right now, IMNSHO.

Yes, it sounds much MUCH better. The satellites are on the Surround output. Through some experimentation, I've observed that I can actually get more detail and clarity (compared to all 5 speakers on Studio-mix) through the Monitors alone on the 3-Channel Stereo or Stereo setting with the new positioning.
There is still a little harshness at louder volumes, but that isn't too big a problem. I usually listen only at moderate levels. But perhaps my iTunes equalizer will help with that? Could the harshness be due to the qualities of the room? The walls are cinder block and don't have anything breaking them up but a couple posters at this point... maybe there are some unpleasant reflections?

I'm either going to put the satellites away or hang them on the opposite wall with adhesive hooks (a project for which I don't have time at the present). Would it be better to put the Monitor 40's in their place? This would put the tweeters slightly above ear height. Would having the 40s elevated above the 30 be fine or would the Monitor 30 remaining on the lower shelf below the TV be cause for concern?

mdaudioguy

Sounds like you are making progress. Yes, the surrounds belong behind you or "put away." I would definitely try putting the 40s where the satellites are in the second picture. You might also want to put something under the 30 to raise it up as much as possible, and another thought would be to try it upside-down.

The harshness at higher volume is probably distortion. Of course, we have no idea what's loud to you. iTunes EQ, huh? How is your computer connected to your receiver? Could be an issue there. It also sounds like you might be realizing the limitations of compressed music files. Have you tried a CD player as a source?