SACDs vs LPs...random listening notes
Erik Tracy
Posts: 4,673
So, I spent some time over on the Steve Hoffman site reading up on lots of threads about best sounding releases for SACDs and my head quickly started to hurt over the bazillion remasters or mixes of different titles and the different opinions over what is better...or not....
I don't personally have dozens of titles with the various remasters or mixes, but I do have one or two, so I decided to have a sit down with two:
* The Who - "Who's Next"
SHM-SACD vs original US vinyl (Track Deluxe/Polydor)
* Black Sabbath - "Paranoid"
SHM-SACD vs original CD (WB), vs original vinyl (WB)
I first cleaned each vinyl LP on my NG 1.5 manual RCM then queued up one track at a time.
General observations:
* The Who - SHM-SACD is quite clean - I can easily move in and out of each track within each song so there is vg clarity. But, Keith's drumming track seems lack lustre and 'dull', imo. I was quite surprised at how clean and clear the vinyl sounded - must have been the first spin of that LP in over 10 years on my rig. With the upgrade to my components over the years, this sounded quite good, imo for an 'ancient record'. I would give a nod to the SHM-SACD, though just for overall clarity of the mix. I think the 'dullness' to Keith's drumming track is a fault of the master though.
* Black Sabbath - SHM-SACD is definitely crankable. Of all three media I have, this one really highlights Geezer's bass playing - geezus that guy can play the bass! Lots of tape hiss though. The CD was the brightess and almost unlistenable at high volumes due to fatigue. The LP again was a surprise after the cleaning - quiet, and liquid in its sonic character. Despite the fact that my phono stage has lower input sensitivity which meant I had to crank the volume higher to get the 'same' as the SACD input - it still sounded surprisingly good - really good. The SHM-SACD fell in between the CD and LP for overall sound: not too bright like the CD and a tad clearer than the LP.
For value - vinyl. Darn good sound for the low cost. At $50 a disc, the SHM-SACDs are tough to swallow as a purchase and in comparison to the vinyl - eh - I guess if you prefer the convenience of the media and really really want that step up in clarity.
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System:
Technics SL1200 mkII w/ Denon DL-160
Marantz SA-KI Pearl SACD/CD player
Musical Fidelity A5 Int Amp
AQ Jaguar ICs
MIT Shotgun S2 speaker cables
B&W CDM 1NTs speakers w/ Epik Valor Sub
I don't personally have dozens of titles with the various remasters or mixes, but I do have one or two, so I decided to have a sit down with two:
* The Who - "Who's Next"
SHM-SACD vs original US vinyl (Track Deluxe/Polydor)
* Black Sabbath - "Paranoid"
SHM-SACD vs original CD (WB), vs original vinyl (WB)
I first cleaned each vinyl LP on my NG 1.5 manual RCM then queued up one track at a time.
General observations:
* The Who - SHM-SACD is quite clean - I can easily move in and out of each track within each song so there is vg clarity. But, Keith's drumming track seems lack lustre and 'dull', imo. I was quite surprised at how clean and clear the vinyl sounded - must have been the first spin of that LP in over 10 years on my rig. With the upgrade to my components over the years, this sounded quite good, imo for an 'ancient record'. I would give a nod to the SHM-SACD, though just for overall clarity of the mix. I think the 'dullness' to Keith's drumming track is a fault of the master though.
* Black Sabbath - SHM-SACD is definitely crankable. Of all three media I have, this one really highlights Geezer's bass playing - geezus that guy can play the bass! Lots of tape hiss though. The CD was the brightess and almost unlistenable at high volumes due to fatigue. The LP again was a surprise after the cleaning - quiet, and liquid in its sonic character. Despite the fact that my phono stage has lower input sensitivity which meant I had to crank the volume higher to get the 'same' as the SACD input - it still sounded surprisingly good - really good. The SHM-SACD fell in between the CD and LP for overall sound: not too bright like the CD and a tad clearer than the LP.
For value - vinyl. Darn good sound for the low cost. At $50 a disc, the SHM-SACDs are tough to swallow as a purchase and in comparison to the vinyl - eh - I guess if you prefer the convenience of the media and really really want that step up in clarity.
----
System:
Technics SL1200 mkII w/ Denon DL-160
Marantz SA-KI Pearl SACD/CD player
Musical Fidelity A5 Int Amp
AQ Jaguar ICs
MIT Shotgun S2 speaker cables
B&W CDM 1NTs speakers w/ Epik Valor Sub
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
Post edited by Erik Tracy on
Comments
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I had the same findings with the Black Sabbath LP/SHM-CD/CD. I don't have The WHO Who's Next. The SHM-CD's are hard to swallow but most I have bought are worth it IMO..Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎
SVS SB16 X2
Cary SLP-05/Ultimate Upgrade.
Cary SA-500.1 ES Amps
Cary DMS 800PV Network
OPPO UDP 205/ModWright Modification
VPI Scout TT / Dynavector 20x2
Jolida JD9 Fully Modified
VPI MW-1 Cyclone RCM
MIT Shotgun 3 cables throughout / Except TT, and PC’s -
Great stuff Erik. I've found the CD of Paranoid superb but the LP has its merits.
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I guess I don't fully understand the overwhelming 'luv' of the SHM-SACD of "Who's Next" as the penultimate version.
I found it good, but compared to say Steely Dan's Aja - the sound stage was smaller and the dynamics were...so so - and Keith's drumming sounded dull.
Odd - cuz lots of folks rated Aja as 'lower' in SQ to Who's Next, where I would have reversed the ranking.
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
Love to listen in on comments from guys who have the gear and know what they are looking for.
Maybe somedayI.................humpty dumpty was pushed -
I always thought that the sound quality of the original vinyl "Who's Next" was a little subdude. Not as crisp/clear sounding as it could have been. Now, my copy wasn't in the greatest shape, so I picked up a new 180g copy. It's the Back to Black pressing. I'm really surprised how good it sounds. John's bass really stands out. Which I like. The overall quality is better than the original to my ears. Or, my original copy just sounds worn out. I would like to hear the SACD version though.
Erik, I'm also running a MF A5. Mines just the pre though. But with a low/medium output MC cartridge I do have to turn the volume up. It's still a pretty good phono stage though. -
Steely Dan's Aja SHM-SACD is worth every penny. It is still my favorite SHM-SACD..Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎
SVS SB16 X2
Cary SLP-05/Ultimate Upgrade.
Cary SA-500.1 ES Amps
Cary DMS 800PV Network
OPPO UDP 205/ModWright Modification
VPI Scout TT / Dynavector 20x2
Jolida JD9 Fully Modified
VPI MW-1 Cyclone RCM
MIT Shotgun 3 cables throughout / Except TT, and PC’s -
TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »Steely Dan's Aja SHM-SACD is worth every penny. It is still my favorite SHM-SACD..
Odd there too, cuz on the SH forum the 'experts' rate it as avg/poor.
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
Erik Tracy wrote: »For value - vinyl. Darn good sound for the low cost. At $50 a disc, the SHM-SACDs are tough to swallow as a purchase and in comparison to the vinyl - eh - I guess if you prefer the convenience of the media and really really want that step up in clarity.
Gotta call just a bit of BS there... vinyl done right is a very expensive rabbit hole to fall into.
:cool: The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
nooshinjohn wrote: »Gotta call just a bit of BS there... vinyl done right is a very expensive rabbit hole to fall into.:cool:
Sure - you can go WAAYY down the rabbit hole on vinyl - just saying for the gear I did my impromptu comparison - spinning a clean LP sure sounded darn good compared to expensive SACDs.
I still think that the SD Aja SACD is a glorious example of how good that medium can be though.
So, I'm a bit confused when 'experts' rate discs and come out with a totally different view than what I hear on my rig.
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
scottyboy76 wrote: »Love to listen in on comments from guys who have the gear and know what they are looking for.
Maybe somedayI.................
Scottyboy it is true that the better the gear the more revealing and better sounding the medium will sound while at the same time a crappy release will sound decent on a lesser system and sound like pure **** on a higer rez rig. 'Tis a crap shoot my friend.nooshinjohn wrote: »Gotta call just a bit of BS there... vinyl done right is a very expensive rabbit hole to fall into.:cool:
My brother John, this is not entirely true. I have an original copy from the '70 of Supertramp "Crime of the Century" & Jethro Tulls "Thick as a Brick" among others that are spectacular pressings and are hard to beat by any new SACD or heavy remasted vinyl. Just like all formats it is how well they are mastered and pressed. Oh and one more thing, those LPs I mentions above were about $4.oo each when new. It is truly a crap shoot. I remember when Led Zepplin's "Mother Ship" was first released, both CD and LPs it sounded so hot and harsh that I couldn't listen to it. If I'm not mistaken Jesse had the same experience. -
Erik Tracy wrote: »Odd there too, cuz on the SH forum the 'experts' rate it as avg/poor.
I've come to the conclusion that a lot of the "experts" there don't know what good sound is.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Ed Zachary.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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I always thought that the sound quality of the original vinyl "Who's Next" was a little subdude. Not as crisp/clear sounding as it could have been. Now, my copy wasn't in the greatest shape, so I picked up a new 180g copy. It's the Back to Black pressing. I'm really surprised how good it sounds. John's bass really stands out. Which I like. The overall quality is better than the original to my ears. Or, my original copy just sounds worn out. I would like to hear the SACD version though.
Erik, I'm also running a MF A5. Mines just the pre though. But with a low/medium output MC cartridge I do have to turn the volume up. It's still a pretty good phono stage though.
The MF A5 is one of my better purchases from audiogon - a sweet deal for a really good int amp.
I guess my puzzlement for some of the SACDs is that it is almost like playing the lottery - youz pays yer nickel and youz takes yer chances.
MoFi has a hit and miss reputation for some of their remasters, as well as any re-master/re-release.
The Japan SHM-SACDs are the same. Some are great, some are so-so. I guess the end result is dependent on the quality of the source tapes....if I may use a car analogy....if you start with a Pinto you can only trick it out so much - its still a Pinto.
So when the 'experts' say that Who's Next is *the best* - I gotta ask - compared to what? If the opinion that the SHM-SACD is the best this release has ever sounded....ok...I get it. But if the opinion is in comparison to say another release, like SD Aja - then I gotta give that puzzled one eyebrow lifted look of "huh"?
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
