Best way to test 7.1 setup?

fattmann

Looking for input on ways to test a 7.1 setup to determine if I like it more than 5.1. Basically looking for suggestions on movies scenes/test disc/general experiences that may make 7.1 more noticeable.

^^ Thats the short question. Rest is ramblings/back story.

Current setup is that listed in my signature. Very, Very happy with it. I am however about to pick up a CS20 and pair of TSI100s at a killer price to round out my setup. Was definitely going to install the CS20, but was up in the air about the extra rears.

Room is pretty small- 15'x20', seating is ~14' back on the long side, pretty much against the back wall. Rears are currently slightly above ear level at 90*. If I were to implement 7.1, the additional speakers would either have to go directly above seating position, firing straight Overhead- or slightly forward of the seating position.

I've read some Very compelling discussions here in Club Polk not to get sucked into the whole 7.1 debacle, and have mainly ignored it till now (that and only 3 of my 40 Blu-rays have 7.1). But thought I would try it out for a few weeks just to see the experience- and wanted to know the best way to do that.

The other two options were to use the extra TSI100s as front presence, heard mixed feelings about that as well- or sell them to my brother to upgrade his mediocre 2ch setup.

Also as a side note I have my mains amped with a Sony power amp. I've heard some people mention disliking the idea of 7.1 on an AVR cause you are stressing the amp out, lowering watts per channel and THD and all that jazz. Having the fronts amped I would think the AVR would be able to handle it. Only one I'd be slightly worried about would be the center, but i'm not as much of an audiophile to think it would matter. Eventually plan on getting an Emotiva 3ch for the front, but that is future project....

Just looking for thoughts and opinions, NOT trying to start any fights, lol. If you read this far, thanks! Any info/input is appreciated.

newrival

do you have a blu-ray sampler? they usually have some cool effects

fattmann

I do have a Monster Cable demo disc I got at a training, forgot about it till now- thanks for the memory Jog!

I do have netflix so I can order in some "killer app" Blu-rays for testing (if there are any such movies.)

jbooker82

If you have to have your speakers directly over head or slightly in front of the seating position then your room is probably to small for a 7.1. They are not rear speakers until they are direclty behind you. Your Left and Right speakers should be slightly behind you to the sides. Roughly 110 deg from the tv.

Hook it up and give it a whirl and see what happens.

BeefJerky

jbooker82 wrote: »

If you have to have your speakers directly over head or slightly in front of the seating position then your room is probably to small for a 7.1. They are not rear speakers until they are direclty behind you. Your Left and Right speakers should be slightly behind you to the sides. Roughly 110 deg from the tv.

Hook it up and give it a whirl and see what happens.

I somewhat disagree here. I don't think room size is the issue; it is more about correct placement of the seats and speakers. I have a 7.1 setup in a small 14.5x12.5 room. However, I just use standard office chairs, and as such, can setup my speakers properly for 7.1. In this setup, it works very well, and there are certainly improvements over a good 5.1 setup in terms of surround.

That being said, I agree that the OP's setup simply won't work well for 7.1. Fattman, I recommend you stick to using a 5.1 system that is setup in the best way possible.

kuntasensei

I have my rears mounted about 18" behind my seating, on the wall, angled down toward the listening position, and that works great.

As far as discs to sample 7.1, for native 7.1 tracks on Blu-ray:
Toy Story 3
Punisher: War Zone
Hellboy 2
Rambo (the 2008 version)

As far as 7.1 from 5.1 tracks using DPL-IIx/z, pretty much any action movie mixed in the last 15 years. Because of the way sounds are placed across the surrounds for 5.1 theatrical, just about any movie works well with 7.1. 7.1 in the home was originally implemented to recreate the sound of theatrical matrixed 6.1 (Dolby-EX), and it uses 2 rear surrounds because a single rear surround can cause a perceived psychoacoustic reversal, making it sound like it's coming from in front of you rather than behind you. DPL-IIx then used the dual rear surrounds to more accurately steer sound from the side surrounds across the rear using phase and amplitude comparisons between the two. So if the same sound is 50% in both the left and right surround of a 5.1 track, it gets steered to the rear. If it's 25% left surround and 75% right surround, it gets steered more to the right rear surround, etc. At all times, sound is steered to multiple speakers in varying amounts so that there is no perceived reversal, and the phantom placement between channels gives it a very precise placement.

Another great way to test out 7.1: VIDEO GAMES. Throw DPL-IIx on just about any game in 5.1, and if that doesn't impress you, you should go back to 5.1. Put in a first person shooter, fire a rocket at a distant target, then turn your view 180 degrees and listen for the explosion in the rear surrounds. Then repeat with varying amounts of turn to listen to whether sound resolves accurately between the surrounds from your listening position. If it works well on this, it will work well on movies.

Considering how close you are to the back wall, I recommend placing the rear surrounds a little closer together than the standard Dolby placement angles. This will help shift the sound more to the rear, and you should still get good phantom imaging to fill in the gaps. I actually split the difference between THX placement and Dolby placement, which works nicely. (Of course, I also have height channels in a 9.2 setup... so there's a chance I might just be crazy. Heh...)

intangible

I'm in a seating arrangement pretty similar to yours, and I found 7.1 redundant. If you are already running your surrounds more or less along the back wall then you are just adding two more speakers in that plane. I haven't heard the TSI-100 you are using, but unless they image poorly you won't even be able to tell the rear speakers are there. I definitely see the benefit for a larger room with truly distinct surrounds and rears, however, and will go back to 7.1 when I'm in a larger place.

fattmann

Thanks for the input! Kuntasensei think it was one of your threads I read quite a bit about in, I remember you talking about steering arrays, theater vs home environment and codec history. Glad you chimed in.

Sadly I feel the room is too small for 7.1 myself, was just trying to push the envelope/wishful thinking. The video game idea was a good one though, being able to control the sound dispersion. Also a good point on the inmaging. Honestly am not sure on the TSI100s, never had them at any other position but 90*.. the TSI500s are very picky with imaging. If you are slightly off axis, you notice. But that could just be that I'm too close to them.

Guess that last part ties into a second question, slightly unrelated. I have the 500s about 3' from the front wall, which places them ~12' in front of sitting position. Always felt that they were too close, but didn't want them too close to the front wall. Think I'd be ok scooting them back a bit to help imaging?

Will have to hook up this CS20 and get an idea from there.

rooftop59

Shrek forever after is in 7.1 and has a pretty insane mix

Geoff4rfc

kuntasensei wrote: »

As far as 7.1 from 5.1 tracks using DPL-IIx/z, pretty much any action movie mixed in the last 15 years. Because of the way sounds are placed across the surrounds for 5.1 theatrical, just about any movie works well with 7.1.
Considering how close you are to the back wall, I recommend placing the rear surrounds a little closer together than the standard Dolby placement angles. This will help shift the sound more to the rear, and you should still get good phantom imaging to fill in the gaps. I actually split the difference between THX placement and Dolby placement, which works nicely. (Of course, I also have height channels in a 9.2 setup... so there's a chance I might just be crazy. Heh...)

fattmann wrote: »

Sadly I feel the room is too small for 7.1 myself, was just trying to push the envelope/wishful thinking.

If I may, wishful thinking is what gets things happening

Personally, I don't think your room is too small. Mine is 14 x 11 and I'm running 7.2.

Kuntasensei mentions Dolby Pro Logic II, this is actually where two speakers are mounted high on the wall and to either side of the viewing screen. Have you considered running height or wide channels instead of rear?

I don't have the luxury of a 9.1 set up so I've placed my "surrounds" in the "rear" position and have created a "rear surround" effect. My remaining two "extra" channels are connected to the "wide" terminals but are mounted high and wide on the front wall. I do all this with a pair of 70's, 40's, 30's, a CS2, an Epik Empire and an Energy 8" sub, talk about pushing the envelope :biggrin:

I get great results with this set up, I've got gun casings bouncing all over the place, dogs barking out in my front yard (sometimes it's hard to tell reality from theatrical), when watching The Wofman, in the asylum scene when he breaks free, one buckle goes bouncing clear into my front yard, the other goes across the hall and into one of my daughters bedroom, very nice :cool:

kuntasensei

Geoff4rfc makes a valid point. If your mains are spaced at the proper angles and you're that close to your back wall with the side surrounds at 90 degrees, you might benefit more from running Audyssey DSX Width channels to fill in sidewall imaging.

In my case, I cheated it. I moved my side surrounds up about a foot in front of my main listening position, then moved my rear surrounds closer together. This gave me the perfect 360 degree sound in my listening area, especially noticeable on pans in games when you're turning your viewpoint around in a circle. It isn't necessarily within spec on the recommended Dolby angles, but it sounds "right" to me. I run DSX Height instead of Width only because my mains are spaced out wider than spec as well (due to my projection screen being between them), with the speakers toed in... and moving my side surrounds slightly forward of the listening position gave me good imaging between the mains and side surrounds, making Width channels unnecessary.

pdxfj

rooftop59 wrote: »

Shrek forever after is in 7.1 and has a pretty insane mix

I noticed that when I got the movie and popped it in. I thought to myself "gahh! first 7.1 BD I get and I don't have my back surrounds hooked up yet".

Often wondered if hooking up the rear surrounds are worth it with having FX300I di-poles as my surrounds.

Hmmmm.. Perhaps I need to think on it some more.. Shrek was crazy enough in 5.1, now I'm really curious to hear it in 7.1.

kuntasensei

I run FXi30 side surrounds and RTi28 rears and heights. IMHO, dipoles on the sides and a pair of direct radiating rears is the closest you can get to how the theater's multi-speaker arrays sound.

nguyendot

You work at Best Buy per chance? (just based on your equipment list)

fattmann

nguyendot wrote: »

You work at Best Buy per chance? (just based on your equipment list)

I can neither confirm nor deny the identity of my employer. However, if you happen to be near store 1093, ask for the "resident audio guy." Lol

nguyendot

Haha.

220, 219, 0646 here.
I GEO'd 0646.
Haven't worked for big blue in 4+ years though......hehehe.
Why didn't you order some RTI series? I know your accomodation gets A9's for like $350 a pop.

pdxfj

kuntasensei wrote: »

I run FXi30 side surrounds and RTi28 rears and heights. IMHO, dipoles on the sides and a pair of direct radiating rears is the closest you can get to how the theater's multi-speaker arrays sound.

Yeah, I agree with you on that. Also is the same recommendation from the THX folks.

If you don't mind me asking what is the spacing between your rear surrounds? The minimum distance I can get between mine would be about 6-1/2 feet (open archway) which puts them about three feet from the side walls.

kuntasensei

Mine are about 5 feet apart, I think. But it sounds like yours would be a pretty good angle with those distances.

fattmann

nguyendot wrote: »

Haha.

220, 219, 0646 here.
I GEO'd 0646.
Haven't worked for big blue in 4+ years though......hehehe.
Why didn't you order some RTI series? I know your accomodation gets A9's for like $350 a pop.

My supervisor actually bought a full five channel setup- 500s, CS20, 100s, they sat for like 4 months and he was like, "Hey want to buy some speakers?" He sold them to me for less than he paid accommodation, never even opened them. Couldn't refuse that. Only recently did I buy the center and rears off him (already have a set of 100s, hence the 7.1 discussion.)

Once I graduate college and move into a bigger place, I was thinking about getting some RTIs if I'm still working there. Maybe move the 500s to the rear, ha! lol

fattmann

kuntasensei wrote: »

Mine are about 5 feet apart, I think. But it sounds like yours would be a pretty good angle with those distances.

Mine are closer to 6' apart due to the projo screen. They are toed in about 45*, otherwise they image like crap. I think once I get that center in there and turn off the phantom center settings, the imaging will be a lot better, or at least I hope..

kuntasensei

fattmann wrote: »

Mine are closer to 6' apart due to the projo screen. They are toed in about 45*, otherwise they image like crap. I think once I get that center in there and turn off the phantom center settings, the imaging will be a lot better, or at least I hope..

Oh, no... I was responding to pdxfj about the spacing of my rear surrounds. My mains are about 7 feet apart, toed in.

fattmann

kuntasensei wrote: »

Oh, no... I was responding to pdxfj about the spacing of my rear surrounds. My mains are about 7 feet apart, toed in.

My bad. Spaced on that one. :rolleyes:

nguyendot

Definitely a good deal then lol.

I think I may order some A9s... They're cheapppppppp