Dynamic Range Database

Erik Tracy
Erik Tracy Posts: 4,673
edited February 2011 in Music & Movies
Saw this posted today over at AK:
http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

Hopefully this isn't 'old news'.

Kinda cool..take it for what its worth...

H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
Post edited by Erik Tracy on
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,816
    edited February 2011
    I posted a link in another thread before I saw that you had posted this, sorry.

    Good info, that needs to be seen.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • muncybob
    muncybob Posts: 3,068
    edited February 2011
    cool, wish it were more up to date though.
    Yep, my name really is Bob.
    Parasound HCA1500A(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Marantz UD7007, Polk L600, Rythmik L12 sub.
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited February 2011
    I thought about polling people here, and creating a database for CD quality, based on a 1 to 5 star rating, but it's more work than I'm willing to do...

    Take an average rating from peoples submittals on how they thought a particular CD sounded, this of course would (or should) take "loudness wars" into the rating. It would work like this:

    * Poor (unlistenable, a beer coaster)
    ** Fair (listenable, but lacking body, soundspace, suffers from some digital glare)
    *** Average (a respectable recording, with some minor flaws)
    **** Excellent (above average, but not quite reference material)
    ***** Reference recording (The best of the best)
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,816
    edited February 2011
    muncybob wrote: »
    cool, wish it were more up to date though.

    It is up to date. The dates you see listed are when the recording was released, not when the info was posted.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • vc69
    vc69 Posts: 2,500
    edited February 2011
    Good stuff. Thanks Steve.
    -Kevin
    HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
    2 Channel:
    Oppo BDP-83 SE
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited February 2011
    Can someone explain what I'm looking at?
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  • Erik Tracy
    Erik Tracy Posts: 4,673
    edited February 2011
    AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »
    Can someone explain what I'm looking at?


    green is good

    red sucks.

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited February 2011
    Once you get familiar with your volume control position, you can tell the overly hot recordings (poor dynamic range)--if they are not easy to tell audibly. Anything that sounds moderately loud at 9 o'clock on my pre I know its recorded too hot, and then I listen for other tell-tale signs of the loudness wars. I find interesting that most everything I have from the 70's to early/mid 80's requires far more volume, then later recordings.

    One recording that has excellent dynamic range is George Michael's "Faith" CD. That CD will sneak up on you and peak your amp in a quick hurry. It's not "loud" it's just got big dynamics. Notably "Hard Day."
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited February 2011
    Erik Tracy wrote: »
    green is good

    red sucks.
    Thanks, I gathered that (also I can read), I was looking for a more in depth explanation.
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited February 2011
    I'm shocked to see some recordings, like In Absentia, that are generally considered to be good recordings but get poor results on that scale.
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  • Erik Tracy
    Erik Tracy Posts: 4,673
    edited February 2011
    AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »
    Thanks, I gathered that (also I can read), I was looking for a more in depth explanation.

    Sorry - was a bit glib with that. :redface:

    What part doesn't make sense?

    I see it as a spread rating from 1-20 for the dynamic range for each title in question with an average rating for the album overall and then a worst and best column for the tracks on that album.

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited February 2011
    I should probably do some reading up on dynamic range then. I suppose prior knowledge is implied or expected, but if I were putting something like that together, I'd have a short blurb on what it is and why it matters and then show the results, but maybe I missed that part.

    Is there an objective means of measurement, or are people just rating based on what their ears tell them?
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  • Erik Tracy
    Erik Tracy Posts: 4,673
    edited February 2011
    AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »
    I should probably do some reading up on dynamic range then. I suppose prior knowledge is implied or expected, but if I were putting something like that together, I'd have a short blurb on what it is and why it matters and then show the results, but maybe I missed that part.

    Is there an objective means of measurement, or are people just rating based on what their ears tell them?


    Probably just what their ears tell them - kinda like the way they rate bluray discs over at AVS for their 'tiered' rating for picture quality which is...gasp....all subjective....!!! :tongue:

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
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  • muncybob
    muncybob Posts: 3,068
    edited February 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    It is up to date. The dates you see listed are when the recording was released, not when the info was posted.

    Yep, I get that. But I looked for a few releases in the last couple years and did not find them.
    Yep, my name really is Bob.
    Parasound HCA1500A(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Marantz UD7007, Polk L600, Rythmik L12 sub.
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited February 2011
    AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »
    I should probably do some reading up on dynamic range then. I suppose prior knowledge is implied or expected, but if I were putting something like that together, I'd have a short blurb on what it is and why it matters and then show the results, but maybe I missed that part.

    Is there an objective means of measurement, or are people just rating based on what their ears tell them?

    There is a multitude of scope measurements on youtube if you search the terms "loudness wars" that shows the clipping of the peaks, destroying dynamic range. I don't know what software they are using, but that seems to be one way to find out....

    Some videos also play remasters that have been ruined my the loudness wars, and compare them to the early releases which are far better. You can easily hear the difference between the samples.

    Remaster doesn't always mean "better." My early release Boston CD is far better than the "squashed" remaster of the same CD.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • mrbigbluelight
    mrbigbluelight Posts: 9,885
    edited February 2011
    Good case in point might be SuperTramp's "Crime of the Century" releases.

    http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=Supertramp

    The 1974 Remastered Release has an Album DR of .... 9

    The 1974 Releases in MFSL (and Gold) are 16 (and 17).

    Kind of a bad example, I guess, comparing MFSL to regular remastered, but the "remastered" edition is as flat as unleaven bread.
    Sal Palooza
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited February 2011
    I have the original Crime of the Century release (not a remaster), it sounds very good. I would rate the CD between average and excellent overall, leaning more towards excellent. It lacks a little punch, but overall tonal character is very good. treble is excellent.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • Erik Tracy
    Erik Tracy Posts: 4,673
    edited February 2011
    steveinaz wrote: »
    I have the original Crime of the Century release (not a remaster), it sounds very good. I would rate the CD between average and excellent overall, leaning more towards excellent. It lacks a little punch, but overall tonal character is very good. treble is excellent.

    I have the same CD - I would agree with Steve's assessment - pretty darn good for a standard issue CD.

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited February 2011
    I love rocking "Bloody Well Right" at concert levels. The soundstage is HUGE. That track would be off the hook on SDA's.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited February 2011
    It's kind of sad sorting that list from best to worse and seeing how few there are from the 2000's that are any good.
    Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
    Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
    Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
    Backburner:Krell KAV-300i
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited February 2011
    The real shame is that some of the "remasters" are worse than the orignal releases. I mean, why even bother? My Boston remaster sucks, I use it as a coaster now and listen to my original release.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,738
    edited February 2011
    ok looking through i seen what i thought were some SACD's the listing says SHM-CD that seemed to be in the red. So if i'm correct why would a SACD be so compressed wouldn't that go against what SACD is all about?

    help me here
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,816
    edited February 2011
    An SHM-CD is not an SHM-SACD.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited February 2011
    ...and SACD's aren't immune from idiot mastering.

    However, you should probably check out the loudness wars videos on youtube- they explain the problem very clearly; we're not talking about digital compression, but dynamic range compression (although lossy digital compression algorithms tend to utilize some dynamic range compression).
    Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
    Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
    Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
    Backburner:Krell KAV-300i
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