Harsh treble on new M60s. Ringing ears!

ROHfan

I love my new Monitor 60s but after a few days of listening to them my ears have been ringing. The highs seem excessively harsh and are sometimes painful at reference levels.

I only posted this under "Electronics" because I believe the issue is with Audyssey and not the M60s. I'm using a Denon AVR1611.

I didn't have this issue with my R50s but in my research I may have stumbled onto something. When I ran Audyssey with my old R50s the tweeters were sitting higher up on the speaker, more in-line with the calibration mic. On the M60s the tweeters are lower than mic level when running Audyssey. Is it possible that Audyssey is boosting or overcompensating the highs too much because the tweeter isn't in-line with the mic? It was noted by a poster on another audio site that a solution to his similar issue was to place the calibration mic on the same plane as the tweeter in his speakers when running Audyssey. The mic picks up more high frequency and adjusts the curve down accordingly. This resulted in more laid back, smoother highs from his speakers.

Has anyone had experience with this issue? Is it possible that the M60s are really just that forward in the highs? My tinnitus thanks you in advance.

F1nut

Why not try running Audyssey as the gentleman suggested to see if it does the trick? If not, then you will know the problem is elsewhere.

virtualdean

ROHfan wrote: »

I love my new Monitor 60s but after a few days of listening to them my ears have been ringing.

The highs seem excessively harsh and are sometimes painful at reference levels.

Has anyone had experience with this issue? Is it possible that the M60s are really just that forward in the highs? My tinnitus thanks you in advance.

Reference levels??? For what, Kiss shattering glass? Seriously, ringing ears and even temporary tinnitius is a sign of ear damage, plain and simple.
You lose a little bit of your high range every time you have this..
Its cumulative. Most people don't notice because most of what we hear is at middle frequencies anyway.
Go see your doctor for the straight scoop.

BlueFox

I suspect he is distorting the music at high levels, and that is causing the irritation. I have experienced that problem, but not now. Currently, Lady Gaga is running at 90+ db, and she is smooth and clear as can be. On the other hand, I am not going to listen at this level non-stop for days.

danger boy

ROHfan wrote: »

but after a few days of listening to them my ears have been ringing. The highs seem excessively harsh and are sometimes painful at reference levels.

that's the problem.. so many day with music at reference levels will cause you ears to ring with any speaker. turn it down.

also.. the Audessy thingy is just for set up for approx settings. get in the menu and adjust things to your liking. such as speaker size, delay, crossover, etc....

what receiver as you using? some receivers are a rough match with some speakers.

plus, speakers need time to break in.. about 100 hours of use.. but not at reference levels for those 100 hours.

ROHfan

F1nut wrote: »

Why not try running Audyssey as the gentleman suggested to see if it does the trick? If not, then you will know the problem is elsewhere.

Plan on doing this tonite but was wondering if anyone else had tried this before.

As for listening to music at reference levels, maybe I was unclear but I don't listen at glass-shattering volumes. I like it just loud enough so I can "feel" it with the volume at 0db on my Denon. This is how I always listen--for short periods at a time--and this is the first time I've had this issue.

Will recalibrate tonite with a lower position on the mic and with the grills off and I'll post my findings in this thread. Hopefully that will do the trick.

tonyb

Running at 0 db on the volume is pretty dang loud and your risking doing damage to your ears and your speakers.
Have you given any thought that the speakers may not be big enough for the size of room you have them in ? That would cause you to want to turn it up frequently. Also maybe a warmer sounding cable may be an avenue to look into.

PrazVT

When you run Audyssey, it actually sets EQ levels for each speaker (at least on my 3311), so perhaps it is setting the high freqs a bit high? Can you go in to the menu and see how each speaker was set?

Personally, I turn off Audyssey when listening to music - just pure direct mode to avoid unnatural boosting. Do you have dynamic eq / vol on perhaps?

ROHfan

PrazVT wrote: »

When you run Audyssey, it actually sets EQ levels for each speaker (at least on my 3311), so perhaps it is setting the high freqs a bit high? Can you go in to the menu and see how each speaker was set?

Personally, I turn off Audyssey when listening to music - just pure direct mode to avoid unnatural boosting. Do you have dynamic eq / vol on perhaps?

Yes, I have those running. The problem is that I like how Audyssey set everything up but would just like to roll off the highs manually a bit. This, I believe, cannot be done when running Audyssey curves. It's kind of a set it and forget it thing. I might have to run Direct and set my own EQ for 2 channel music. But for now I'm gonna recalibrate with a different mic position and see how it sounds.

PrazVT

Maybe you can view the set/forget EQ settings and note them down. Then manually set the EQ for the bands that you need to?

Monster Jam

Wow - 0db - thats loud. I rarely go louder than -20db. And thats pretty dang loud.

ROHfan

Monster Jam wrote: »

Wow - 0db - thats loud. I rarely go louder than -20db. And thats pretty dang loud.

-20 on my receiver is very low. Maybe I have something set wrong?

Loud & Clear

Why not just turn off Audyssey and see if that removes the problem? At least then you know if it's Audyssey or something else.

I had a Denon 1905 that claimed to have 80 watts for seven channels. It struggled to create volume when compared to three other AVR's that I've had. Seems like I always had to bump it up to -10 or higher in order to achieve the volume that I liked for movies. I've rarely had to go higher than -20 with the other three AVR's. I won't try another of the lower powered Denons again based on the experience that I had. I also had a Denon 2802 that put out far more power in my room. It claimed 90 watts for six channels. I didn't figure that the 10 watts would mean much, but it did. Or something else in the works did if not the watts.

Monster Jam

ROHfan wrote: »

-20 on my receiver is very low. Maybe I have something set wrong?

In fairness, there are a lot of factors to consider, so its tough to make a direct comparison. The biggest consideration in my set-up is that I have a relatively small footprint, so cranking it up means getting loud fast.

danger boy

Monster Jam wrote: »

Wow - 0db - thats loud. I rarely go louder than -20db. And thats pretty dang loud.

not all receivers/pre amps have the same volume at 0

I could not run mine at 0 or it would blow the windows out..

if I want it really loud then I can't go over -14 I did once go to -10 and the highs became to shrill.

danger boy

your Denon AVR1611 seems to be underpowered for that kind of volume..

specs: 7.1-channel home theater receiver/amplifier with 525 watts of total power (7 x 75W)

in most cases there isn't enough headroom in your receivers amps to do that speaker justice..

also.. do you have hardwood floors in that room? hardwood floors could cause the highs to become to ear fatiguing.. carpet will absorb some of that.

ROHfan

danger boy wrote: »

your Denon AVR1611 seems to be underpowered for that kind of volume..

specs: 7.1-channel home theater receiver/amplifier with 525 watts of total power (7 x 75W)

in most cases there isn't enough headroom in your receivers amps to do that speaker justice..

also.. do you have hardwood floors in that room? hardwood floors could cause the highs to become to ear fatiguing.. carpet will absorb some of that.

I have a throw rug on hardwood flooring.

In reference to your first statement I'm just gonna throw this out there...maybe I'm at the upper threshold of the my AVR's abilities after my speaker upgrade. Perhaps the Denon had no problems driving the R50s but it is straining to push the M60s. I was happy with the R50s sound and maybe I should have stayed with them. I think I'm coming to the cold realization that my entry-level electronics can no longer do what I ask of it and I'm going to have to start thinking about an avr with pre-outs and external amplification, if only for 2-ch. music. I knew the time would come but I didn't think it would come this quickly. For now, I have to figure out a way to enjoy my current configuration.

To try and tone down the highs I ran Audyssey today with the grills off the fronts and the mic at tweeter-level. Holy cow! That REALLY cut down the highs! I never expected that much of a difference. In fact, the highs were WAY too soft. I re-ran Audyssey with the grills ON and the mic a little higher than previously and it sounds pretty good now. The highs aren't quite as harsh as they were yesterday but I've also lost some of the clarity. Looks like I'll have to find a happy medium somewhere.

Also, it was suggested that I take a look at how loud I was listening to music. I stated that I usually listen at 0db. I asked my wife to take a seat on the couch and adjusted the volume to where it was a perfect listening level for her where it was loud enough to "feel" the music but not so loud that it would hurt her ears. That volume was -5.5db. For me, it was a little too low. What I did then was to set the fronts to "Large" and the sub to "Main +LFE" which I've never tried before. That setting allowed me to enjoy the volume at a lower level and still be able to feel the low end. I'm going to run like this for a week and see how my ears adjust to the lower levels. This may be as good as it gets for now.

Ron Temple

Here's something I read recently regarding the 1611 and a fellow that keeps blowing speakers. It points to a weakness in the AVRs amp section which could explain why you're not getting expected volume a -0, but it also should warn you to take it easy on the gain knob or you're likely going to be in the same boat.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71390&highlight=denon+1611

ROHfan

Ron Temple wrote: »

Here's something I read recently regarding the 1611 and a fellow that keeps blowing speakers. It points to a weakness in the AVRs amp section which could explain why you're not getting expected volume a -0, but it also should warn you to take it easy on the gain knob or you're likely going to be in the same boat.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71390&highlight=denon+1611

Very interesting read. I'm not cranking it as loud as that guy did but I can see your point. Thanks for posting that. I'm still kinda new to this hobby and it amazes me how much I learn about it every day.

Ron Temple

ROHfan wrote: »

Very interesting read. I'm not cranking it as loud as that guy did but I can see your point. Thanks for posting that. I'm still kinda new to this hobby and it amazes me how much I learn about it every day.

Some of those guys posting in the beginning are installers and know far more than I about AVRs. I'm assuming what was said is true. I hesitated in posting it, but decided it's better that you know about possible weakness in the amp section. You just got new speakers and I'm sure you'd like to keep them.

67jason

Let me start by saying that I am not an expert at this stuff....just starting to get into higher end a/v stuff.

I have the same receiver as the OP, denon 1611 and i'm using it to push monitor 70's along with some crappy fishers for surrounds (as soon as tax return gets in these are getting dumped in the trash). I have no issues with unnatural highs, nor do I have to run music or movies at 0db. My listening range depending on time of day and the source (music or movies) ranges from -50db to -10db at the loudest. Most things are in the -30db to -40db. I used audyssy for the auto calibration and most always have dynamic volume set to day. Most music is listened to in mult-channel stereo mode and for movies or tv i just hit the standard button and the best surround mode for the source is used. I really like my set up and cant wait to get some better surround speakers. I get my TV signal over the air and that is the only source that I need to turn up to reach satisfying volume levels, but even at that I have rarely felt the need to go past -10db. CD's, DVD's, blu-ray's and downloaded content is all ran through my PS3.

I cannot understand why the OP is having such difficulties when mine is pretty awesome sounding. I too like to feel the sound as much as possible and never do I have to make my ears bleed to achieve that sensation. I would double check all connections and settings. Possibly reset the receiver (instructions are on the last page of the manual) and start over. If it still sounds like **** contact denon and make good on their warranty and get a replacement receiver. What you experience now just screams to me that something is not right either connections/settings or a faulty receiver.

ROHfan

67jason wrote: »

Let me start by saying that I am not an expert at this stuff....just starting to get into higher end a/v stuff.

I have the same receiver as the OP, denon 1611 and i'm using it to push monitor 70's along with some crappy fishers for surrounds (as soon as tax return gets in these are getting dumped in the trash). I have no issues with unnatural highs, nor do I have to run music or movies at 0db. My listening range depending on time of day and the source (music or movies) ranges from -50db to -10db at the loudest. Most things are in the -30db to -40db. I used audyssy for the auto calibration and most always have dynamic volume set to day. Most music is listened to in mult-channel stereo mode and for movies or tv i just hit the standard button and the best surround mode for the source is used. I really like my set up and cant wait to get some better surround speakers. I get my TV signal over the air and that is the only source that I need to turn up to reach satisfying volume levels, but even at that I have rarely felt the need to go past -10db. CD's, DVD's, blu-ray's and downloaded content is all ran through my PS3.

I cannot understand why the OP is having such difficulties when mine is pretty awesome sounding. I too like to feel the sound as much as possible and never do I have to make my ears bleed to achieve that sensation. I would double check all connections and settings. Possibly reset the receiver (instructions are on the last page of the manual) and start over. If it still sounds like **** contact denon and make good on their warranty and get a replacement receiver. What you experience now just screams to me that something is not right either connections/settings or a faulty receiver.

Resetting the microprocessor was something I was thinking about. As far as contacting Denon that may be an option, also. The unit is a refurb, but was done by a factory authorized company.