What difference should I expect to hear?

PolkMaster1

treitz3 wrote: »

What is truly sad is the quote above.

Damn, I hate it when folks troll this forum. I really do.

Maybe not a troll, but someone who is on the dark side of electronics who hasn't seen the light yet?

inspiredsports

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

WTH is going on around here??? first we get hit hard with spam now all the trolls come out to play old and new...

Freaking crazy it's like some people were drinking out of the same water fountain..

I've had the exact same feeling. Its as if aliens have landed and their ears are inside their bellies and everything sounds the same.

Toolfan66

I have a feeling all these new guys are a group from some other planet and this was all planed. And I'm not just talking about jcandy and cfreak!!!

I see a few other new people in the mix just keeping it a little on the low side..

I bet I'm right!!!

silvertuner

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

I have a feeling all these new guys are a group from some other planet and this was all planed. And I'm not just talking about jcandy and cfreak!!!

I see a few other new people in the mix just keeping it a little on the low side..

I bet I'm right!!!

i hope you arent referring to me? dude i love this place, if it wasnt for CP i would be listening to Bose and using solid state equipment probably

inspiredsports

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

I have a feeling all these new guys are a group from some other planet and this was all planed. And I'm not just talking about jcandy and cfreak!!!

I see a few other new people in the mix just keeping it a little on the low side..

I bet I'm right!!!

Yep. Whatever it is, there is certainly an agenda that doesn't match with my personal experience.

Maybe they're related to Edgar, the big exterminator dude from Men in Black that ended up filled with cockroaches. All those bugs clicking around inside would explain why music sounds the same. It would always be just background noise in relation to all this bugs.

TennMan

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

I have a feeling all these new guys are a group from some other planet and this was all planed. And I'm not just talking about jcandy and cfreak!!!

I see a few other new people in the mix just keeping it a little on the low side..

I bet I'm right!!!

I see you and others are talking about the new guys being trolls and things being planned. I can assure you that is not the case with this new guy. I thought the question I asked to start this thread was a legitimate question to ask since I'm considering upgrading my crossovers in the near future. After all, isn't the change in the sound you are going to hear after the upgrades what really matters? Is it wrong to want to know what I should expect to hear when I make changes to my speakers?

I have been polite in all my posts posts to this forum and I have went out of my way to be nice to everyone and up until now everyone has been nice to me. I don't understand what has brought on this undercurrent of hostility and paranoia that I'm sensing in this thread.

I didn't come here with any plans or connection with any groups. I can honestly say that I don't know anyone on this forum or any other audio forum for that matter. I bought a pair of Polk speakers off eBay and came here seeking to find ways to make them better and to learn more about them. I thought this was the right place for that. If it's not, and I'm causing problems by asking relevant questions, I will be happy to leave in order to put an end to any talk about me being here to cause trouble.

TNHNDYMAN

TennMan-
I don't think they are referring to you so ignore all that. I agree when others get into a back and forth and both sets are stuck in the opinion w/ no give at all then the arguments and opinions get old real quick. I don't think the housecleaning should take place within your thread asking a reasonable ?. That being said, I do think it is difficult for anyone to tell you in advance what you might hear. Don't get me wrong we have talked back and forth ourselves a couple times-- I'm in the exact same boat with the monitor 10's and how changes will improve them. There are just too many variables as to what you can hear physically as we age differently and have past life experience that has damaged some peoples hearing. Room characteristics can have a significant impact on perceived sound. Equipment and cables can have an impact as well. So when one member tells us he did A and B and the outcome was such and such we'll another guy living in a loft with granite and hardwood using other sources and worked on a rifle range for 45 years will tell you he did the same thing and guy a is an idiot it did not "improve" his sound and actually made it worse. I don't know if I'm making any sense so I apoligize in advance but it truly concerns me that you felt singled out for what I know was a sincere question being treated as if you wanted to have senseless and useless banter. I think we both can take most members advice as to the crossovers being updated will bring about changes to make the Monitor 10's sing slightly better than when first produced. Your stands are awesome and should help the bass response. Since one of your tweets was previously fried getting the tweet upgrade became necesarry reguardless of if it should be done 1st or after crossovers. My desire for us to get together with other local members is one done with the hope of hearing other peoples equipment. I would love to hear your 10's after the upgrade next to mine as is. Don't leave hang in there. This is a great hobby fun in many different ways.

treitz3

Tennman, good morning. You are not the new guy we were referring too, no worries mate. Glad you are still here and welcome to Club Polk. Now, back to your question.

We need to know whether or not you want sound change observations with an older speaker brought back to spec. using comparable crossover parts that were in the speaker to begin with or are you talking about actually upgrading the stock components?

McLoki

To more directly answer your question. Here is a thread that has some comments from other polk members when I brought my Modded LSiC to a gathering and compared it to a stock LSiC that was on hand.

In general the mods were very well received and I consider it well worth the money and time I invested.

Michael

Edit - I know it is a completely different speaker and use, but the caps used in the LSi series, appear to be similar to what Polk has used for the last 30 years so the upgrade results should be similar....

chandler9a

Tennman, I am rather new here as well but I know enough to tell you that your question is a valid and welcomed one and you are NOT the member others are referring to so don't worry.

I have not modded any of my speakers yer but I am reading up on how to do this sort of thing (soldering and such) and would love to be able to do it myself on my monitor 10's. So please keep us posted on how you progress with this because it will sure help me. I am not planning on doing my SDA's myself, I'll probably send that to Ben since it seems a little more complicated but I really think I could do the monitors with a little courage...

BTW I bought some nice pine to build stands like you did so hopefully that will get done this weekend

keep asking good questions, it helps all of us new guys!

Aaron

TNHNDYMAN

+1 TennMan-

I've got family w/ me this wkend but I'll get back to your PM soon

dcoil

Ben and Polkmestier1 had some good info (post 2 and 3). I am in the middle of upgrading my speakers, but I've finished the XO'r. I upgraded to Sonicaps and Mills resistors. Yes, at first I thought maybe I had messed something up. Gotten one of the caps or resistors into the wrong section of the circuit board. I did have to drill some new holes to get everything to fit. I was acutally a bit distraught about what to do. Long story short, at the end of about a 4 hour initial listening session I rolled around to the first CD I had listened to that evening. It sounded MUCH better compared to just 4 hrs earlier. I started feeling a bit better and left the am radio on that night and next day to continue the burn-in. That next evening I was in audio bliss, and they are still breaking in. I heard much more detail, even some parts that I'd never heard before. My SRS speakers also had a much wider sound stage. I have since upgraded the cdp, pre, amp, and interconnects. But the biggest bang for the buck so far has been the XO'r upgrade. Just my experience - YMMV

OldmanSRS

My 1.2's always sound better the longer I listen to them at each session. I guess mine need a new break-in every time I use them. You'd think after 23 years they would settle down a bit

TennMan

Warning! Long post

TennMan (Post 25) wrote: »

I should have the 194s I ordered from Polk tomorrow. FedEx says they should be delivers then. I intend to take a few days to thoroughly evaluate differences between the sl2000 and RDO194 and will report back here what I think.

I said in post 25 that I would give my impression of the differences in sound quality between the sl2000 and RDO-194 tweeters. Due do my lack of audiophile vocabulary and lack of an overall extensive vocabulary I hope everyone will still be able to follow what I'm saying.

For several days before receiving the 194s I listened for many hours to two CDs. Alison Krauss - [Forget About It] and Queen - [Classic Queen]. I selected Alison Krauss because the voices and instruments are closely mic'ed to the point where you can hear the air flowing across Alison's lips as she takes a breath and you hear the musicians fingers gliding across the strings. I consider it a wonderfully recorded CD. It has just enough quiet and loud passages to highlight the dynamic range of the speakers. I chose the Queen CD for the same reasons as I did the Alison Krauss CD but I wanted to add the element of power and energy that the Queen CD has to see how the tweeters would respond to that. All listening was done at the same volume level, -25db on my Harman Kardon receiver. That appears to be about the 60% level as far as I can tell. Neither the amp or the speakers seemed to be stressed at that level and I felt I was hearing all there was to be heard in the recording at that level.

I had listened extensively with the sl2000 tweeters and I had taken lots of notes before the 194s arrived yesterday morning. When they arrived I took one last listen to the CDs to freshen my memory and then installed the 194s. Once they were installed I turned on the FM turner and let them play for about 45 minutes at a medium level while I was outside working. When I came back in I felt they should be ready for a test.

The first CD up was the Alison Krauss with the volume set to -25db as before. Of course bass and treble controls were flat as they were when testing the sl2000s.

From the very firsts cut "Stay" on the AK CD I heard and immediate difference in the sound produced by the 194s. The highs seemed slightly muted compared to the sl2000s and was most noticeable with the brushes lightly striking the cymbals. Cymbal crashes didn't seem quite as sizzling. With that being said, the detail and clarity of the highs seemed improved over the sl2000s but I had a feeling that I needed to turn up the treble to regain the sparkle and air that I felt with the sl2000 but I didn't do it. (be sure to read the end of this post for more about that). The biggest thing that I did hear from installing the 194s was the sharp edge of the higher/louder passages where Alison's voice soars was gone and replaced with nice harmonics that I had not heard before. (I found this to be the case across the entire CD.). It was a worthwhile trade-off, (one that I was actually hoping for), for losing the airy highs that were produced by the sl2000. With the sl2000s at the same volume level I felt a need to turn it down some because I felt the sound of her voice was strained and unnatural.

On the signature cut "Forget About It" I again noticed the voice of Alison was much improved but I also noticed the drums in the mid-range were more pronounced and detailed. Very nice!

I'm going to skip over the cuts "It wouldn't have made any difference" and "Maybe" except to say all of the above is true but on those cuts I noticed how much clearer and the background vocals seemed to be with the 194s. A welcomed improvement.

On the cut "Empty Hearts" I was very impressed with the 194s. After the song has played for a short period time I can hear what appears to be the faint sound of waves lapping up onto sand on a shoreline. I really don't know for sure if that is what the sound was intended to be but I hadn't heard it before. Anyone else hearing this with sl2000s? With 194s or sl1000s? I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

Te last cut I'm going to review on this CD is "Ghost in this house". I think it is just a wonderful song for analyzing the qualities of the female voice. Before the high passages were edgy or harsh at this volume to the point where you would wish they would stop or you would want to turn down the volume. Now,with the 194s, I can enjoy it without feeling I have it too loud. A vast improvement over my sl2000s. Since I said that so strongly I must point out again that one of my speakers has a defective dome on the tweeter that could be causing some of the harshness. Other owners of 10s with good sl2000 tweeters may not experience the same thing.

I used the Queen CD mostly to evaluate Freddy Mercury's voice in a couple of songs because he sings with such energy and passion that a very loud Sssss, being cut by his teeth, is evident at the end of some words. Overall I think the 194s helped some on most of the songs but in the song "I'm going slightly mad", (that I considered the best test to see how the 194s would have an effect), the irritating Sssss was still there. Maybe I need better equipment or maybe that is just intended to be part of the song.

I'll wrap up this this review by saying I realize I'm new here and lack the knowledge to be qualified to review hardware with any accuracy. I realize that any testing that I did was flawed because I have an sl2000 that is not up to specs. That is the reason I purchased the 194s, not because I wanted to upgrade tweeters right now. I feel in my case the 194s were worth my investment but I don't find them perfect for my taste and hearing ability. I prefer a slightly brighter tweeter but I would trade that for the smoother vocals and more defined mid-range that I hear with the 194s.

After the testing I have turned up the treble knob in my receiver a couple of degrees and that gave me the airy highs that I like while maintaining the smooth vocals that makes the music more enjoyable. Me slightly twisting the treble proves that I'm not a purist or an audiophile. Both of them would frown on any type of equalization and would say a change in equipment is in order to eliminate the weak link in the system. My whole system is a weak link and I'm able to live with that just fine. I don't feel a need to have a perfect system and I hope that doesn't change. My goal is to have good sounding speakers that I can forget are there when I'm listening to music I enjoy.

And lastly is the issue of break-in. The speakers have played a total of about 24 hours now and unless they broke-in in the first 45 minutes while I was working outside, there has been no change in the sound since I installed them. I'll leave the pros and cons of break-in to the experts and old guys here to argue about but I have to say my old ears didn't hear it. Maybe my two week old speaker wires are still breaking in is the reason I didn't hear it. :eek:

Hope this might help someone else considering upgrading their sl2000 tweeter.

If you have monitor 10s and the Alison Krauss CD: "Forget About It" give it a spin and then come here and tell us what you hear.

chandler9a

nice write up Tenn, very interesting. Give it some more time and see if you notice a difference later on. I found that my 194's took some time as did my ears on getting used to it and once I went back to the 2000s just to see, I liked them less.

good stuff

PolkMaster1

Nice writeup Tennman. Think of this upgrade as part one of a two part process. Go for the XO upgrade and then compare the sound afterwards. Expect some breakin time as I stated earlier. Once they are fully broken in, give your speakers a listen with your new tweeters and then with your old. You should then be able to make more judgements. Just think, you may be able to turn the trebble knob back to zero!!! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Once you've done that, us polksters will have you do more upgrades to your speakers. :biggrin:

Just think, you will soon be the envy of all Bose owners.

PolkMaster1

dcoil wrote: »

Ben and Polkmestier1 had some good info (post 2 and 3).

Thats PolkMaster1. :biggrin: Congrats on your XO upgrades. I had done the XO upgrade first, then went for the RD0 updates a year after that upgrade. Think about going for Dynamats and Mortites on your speakers, and ToolForLifes Rings - if you have the SRS' that you mentioned. I am waiting for the rings to arrive.

I have another project I am going to work on sometime in the next couple of months. If all is successful, I will post my results and have the Polksters spending even more money. Stay tuned... :biggrin:

OldmanSRS

Nice write up TennMan.

On the cut "Empty Hearts" I was very impressed with the 194s. After the song has played for a short period time I can hear what appears to be the faint sound of waves lapping up onto sand on a shoreline. I really don't know for sure if that is what the sound was intended to be but I hadn't heard it before. Anyone else hearing this with sl2000s? With 194s or sl1000s? I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

I downloaded those AK songs and WOW those ARE nicely recorded. I can hear the waves washing onto the beach at 43 seconds, and again at 51 seconds, at 1:01, they are very noticable and very wide. I have the SL2000s. I listened at -27 on my Dennon which works out just less than 1 watt peak at the 4 ohm meter setting on the Carver TFM-35.

jcandy

TennMan wrote: »

I'll wrap up this this review by saying I realize I'm new here and lack the knowledge to be qualified to review hardware with any accuracy. I realize that any testing that I did was flawed because I have an sl2000 that is not up to specs. That is the reason I purchased the 194s, not because I wanted to upgrade tweeters right now. I feel in my case the 194s were worth my investment but I don't find them perfect for my taste and hearing ability. I prefer a slightly brighter tweeter but I would trade that for the smoother vocals and more defined mid-range that I hear with the 194s.

I would be careful with this. People often subjectively prefer a brighter tweeter in the short term, but in the long term that "sizzle" you like may cause fatigue. Here is an important quote from Zaph:

Quite to the point, most listening tests are not long enough. Listening fatigue can take a long time to set in, sometimes more than an hour. Once it does set in, your brain will have learned what listening fatigue sounds like for that particular speaker. Then with each subsequent listening session, the listening fatigue sets in faster as your memory of that speaker's sound returns. If it's bad enough, it will get to a point where you can't stand it and you avoid listening altogether.

It's a sad fact that many commercial high distortion speakers are better sellers because of the initial short term preference for higher distortion. It either leads to buyer's remorse a couple weeks down the road, or just a mental fight to continue accepting the initial first impression.

The perforated mylar dome in your SL2000s almost certainly "modified" the tweeter response. Bolejko (AES, 2006 http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=13648) shows that perforations in a soft dome tweeter give rise to a response peak in the 3kHz-4kHz range, a result which correlates with your observation. So sit back, and enjoy your RDOs!

TennMan

jc, Thanks for your explanation.

TennMan

chandler9a wrote: »

nice write up Tenn, very interesting. Give it some more time and see if you notice a difference later on. I found that my 194's took some time as did my ears on getting used to it and once I went back to the 2000s just to see, I liked them less.

good stuff

I reinstalled the sl2000s today to complete the comparison of the them with the RDO194s I had installed and wrote about a few day ago. I didn't really experience the change in sound of the 194s during the "burn-in" that most people have reported but that could be attributed to my age and lack of perfect hearing. (I'm trying to be careful here. I don't want to start an argument about burn-in, lines plotted on a graph, or what others might hear that I don't.)

After about 5 minutes of listening to the sl2000s I was wanting to go back to the 194s. I did change back after listening for an hour or so to try and figure out the differences in the tweeters I was hearing. For testing this time I was listening to The Eagles - Hell freezes over CD. On the cut "The Girl of Yesterday" the harsh edge I immediately noticed on Glenn Frey's voice seemed almost unbearable compared to what I was hearing with the 194s installed. I do admit I like the greater emphasis in the highs the sl2000s seem to have but the clarity of the highs seems to be lacking compared to the 194s. However, I still like the clash of cymbals with sl2000s better but it's not worth the trade-off for all the other things the 194s do much better than the sl2000s. Going from the 194s back to the sl2000s was more dramatic than going from the sl2000s to the 194s for some reason.

I think I could have been happy with the sl2000s if I hadn't installed the 194s but once the 194s were installed, and I got use to them, it is hard to go back to the sl2000s. I still find that I like the treble control turned up slightly when listening to the 194s. They seem a little too flat to me but again that could be just my inability to hear higher frequencies as well as I should. The good thing about the 194s is that when the treble is turned up it doesn't exhibit the harshness on vocals that I heard with the 2000s. Just my 2 cents about upgrading the sl2000 to the RDO194 tweeter.