Breaking In speakers

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DMan
DMan Posts: 5
edited August 2003 in Speakers
I've read that speakers will sound better after "breaking in". What is physically going on during the break in period and can I damage speakers by running them too hot before they are "broken in". Is this a perception thing like bi wiring or is it universally accepted?

Dman
Front: rti70
Center: csi40
surround: rc60i
sub: waiting$
Post edited by DMan on
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  • wallstreet
    wallstreet Posts: 1,405
    edited August 2003
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    Hmmm, I guess we'll have to rename the pants waffling club (PWC) to the jugs waffling club (JWC)!!
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited August 2003
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    Wallstreet...Got your threads mixed up here? Maybe this should go here:

    http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=110185


    And for the record...the TOPIC of this thread may be even more volitile than bi-wiring.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited August 2003
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    Dman,
    Welcome to the forum! Speaker break in is one of those topics that has 2 basic opinions:

    1) Break in is non-existant, the speakers sound the same from day 1. Some people believe that it's a ploy that speaker companies use to get you hang on to their product until you get used to the sound so you won't return them.

    2) Break in is real and all speakers should be properly "Broken-in" prior to doing any critical listening what so ever!!

    The most important factor (IMHO) is whether or not you like the sound comming out of the speakers, regardless of the break in debate. I think that it is safe to say that if the speaker you are listening to sounds like crap right out of the box, no amount of break in is going to help. How many people do you know have actually purchased a lousy speaker on Monday and proclaimed on Friday that it was the best speaker that they have ever heard? If it doesn't sound good to your ears from the start, they probably will not sound better after a few weeks.

    I'm sure you will get lots of opinions both for and against the Break-in theory, keep in mind that what YOU hear is the only thing that matters.
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • kureboy99
    kureboy99 Posts: 53
    edited August 2003
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    I believe in break-in of speakers...I have always done it before with my old JBL's (some would point and laugh...hehe) but even they sounded more "real" (increased sound stage, better imaging, and fuller tonal ranges in the frequency response).

    What is happeneing is that the signal path is in essence getting used to the signal by the flow of electrical current "paving" the way of the electrons in the copper (or silver) of the internal cableing, voice coils, Cross-over components etc. Think of the signal flow for a speaker out of the box being gridlock traffic, whereas a "burnt-in" system being a one lane highway with no traffic to bump into. The signal path in essence is "less clogged" and has greater throughput, releasing the sound more accurately.

    I can say from experience that my Polk LSi 9's sound much better than when I first got them after burning them in for 200 hours...the general norm on burning in cables, equipment (such as receivers etc), and speakers.

    I guess it could be said that this is my opinion, the only facts I have to back it up is how I now perceive the sound coming from my system. Many, most all, audiophiles swear by it and will not listen to a system critically without having had burnt-in that system as the previous post stated...which is a fact. You have to be your own judge...I'd say try it and see what you think...there is no harm done to your system for 200 hours of running constant signal (best to use a wide frequency sweep tone to get all frequencies) through your system. Happy Listening and Welcome!
    ...See the Music, Feel the Music, Be the Music...
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  • burdette
    burdette Posts: 1,194
    edited August 2003
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    I'm a skeptic about most of this stuff.... and I don't believe speaker break-in has anything to do with the electrical side of it. However, from a materials side, there could be something to be said for surrounds and spiders of mids and woofs needing a softer initial period to get rid of any stiffness, etc. I'd think the larger the Xmax (how far the driver travels), the more break-in might be a good idea. Think about a new pair of leather shoes, or why you buy prewashed jeans.

    There were a rash of posts several months ago about guys having problems with the spiders on some Polk drivers separating... I wondered if they pushed those drivers very hard from the beginning.

    I do NOT believe that the sound is going to change significantly, and I'd certainly not miss a window to return a speaker you didn't like simply because you were waiting for it to break-in and sound better.
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited August 2003
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    Originally posted by burdette
    I'm a skeptic about most of this stuff.... and I don't believe speaker break-in has anything to do with the electrical side of it. However, from a materials side, there could be something to be said for surrounds and spiders of mids and woofs needing a softer initial period to get rid of any stiffness, etc.

    I agree with the material break in over electrical any day. I even have a hard time understanding wire burn in??? Just does not fit in my very small noodle.

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • 98MaximaMan
    98MaximaMan Posts: 11
    edited August 2003
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    doesnt really matter you can always get new speakers
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  • wallstreet
    wallstreet Posts: 1,405
    edited August 2003
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    damn! how did that happen???
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  • burdette
    burdette Posts: 1,194
    edited August 2003
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    Originally posted by HBombToo
    I agree with the material break in over electrical any day. I even have a hard time understanding wire burn in??? Just does not fit in my very small noodle.

    HBomb

    Well, H, I think you're the electricalest EE around these parts.. you're in neck-deep every day. I agree with you that I think the electons and the holes are up to the task from day one.
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  • wlrandall
    wlrandall Posts: 440
    edited August 2003
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    Have to agree, wire burn-in makes no sense at all. If it were true, it would be so to all wires, even the ones in your walls. Answer this-are the lights in your brand new house brighter and whiter after the first month? Does your dryer dry clothes quicker? Does better tasting food come from the oven (OK, that was silly)? The answer to all is no.

    As for speakers, yes I believe in break-in. They are, after all, electro-mechanical devices. It's the mechanical side that breaks in.
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  • 98MaximaMan
    98MaximaMan Posts: 11
    edited August 2003
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    exactly which wires are being burned anyway the the speaker wire or the wires in the speaker or all of it. couldnt you just reuse the speaker wire thats already been "brokin in"
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  • andrewe77
    andrewe77 Posts: 17
    edited August 2003
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    Originally posted by kureboy99
    What is happeneing is that the signal path is in essence getting used to the signal by the flow of electrical current "paving" the way of the electrons in the copper (or silver) of the internal cableing, voice coils, Cross-over components etc. Think of the signal flow for a speaker out of the box being gridlock traffic, whereas a "burnt-in" system being a one lane highway with no traffic to bump into. The signal path in essence is "less clogged" and has greater throughput, releasing the sound more accurately.

    Wow. It's getting thick in here.
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  • wallstreet
    wallstreet Posts: 1,405
    edited August 2003
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    Originally posted by kureboy99
    .
    .
    .I guess it could be said that this is my opinion, the only facts I have to back it up is how I now perceive the sound coming from my system. Many, most all, audiophiles swear by it and will not listen to a system critically without having had burnt-in that system as the previous post stated...which is a fact. You have to be your own judge...I'd say try it and see what you think...there is no harm done to your system for 200 hours of running constant signal (best to use a wide frequency sweep tone to get all frequencies) through your system. Happy Listening and Welcome!

    Interesting. I've subscribed to Sound and Vision for 5 years now. And I've never heard them say a thing about having to burn in wires for over a month before they critically evaluate they equipment they're writing about.
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  • burdette
    burdette Posts: 1,194
    edited August 2003
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    Originally posted by wallstreet
    Interesting. I've subscribed to Sound and Vision for 5 years now. And I've never heard them say a thing about having to burn in wires for over a month before they critically evaluate the equipment they're writing about.


    I've subscribed to S&V for about 22 years now (going back to the the Stereo Review days), and they never have said it. These are also the whacky guys who upon double double-blind listening tests said they couldn't hear the difference between expensive speaker wire and decent zip cord of the same gauge - and then had the audacity to print the results.

    They had a "high-end" column a few years ago by some young-looking guy who very much put forth ideas like interconnect burn-in, more expensive wire is always better, etc. Only time I ever wrote a letter to the editor.. and a whole bunch of other people did too.... more letters, consistently, than any other column/columnist. He didn't last long.

    But, as always, if you hear it and believe it, knock yourself out.
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  • howie777
    howie777 Posts: 357
    edited August 2003
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    Well I have not posted much but this is one of those things that I think is all in your head. I am an electrical engineer, which means I have a piece of paper that says I'm very smart. (don't tell anyone, but I'm not very smart at all. Its all a trick, you just pay the school money and they give you that paper even if your not smart like me). With my mad engineering skills, I can't believe there is any truth to burn in of any kind on the electrical side. Here is are a couple of quotes from a senior engineer at one of the more respect speaker companies. No not Bose! :-)

    "There is no such thing as breaking in. That's some fantasy invented by magazine writers who can't get a real job. The real phenomena is a psychoacoustic one where what you listen to for an extended period becomes the new "center" of reference, and eventually all other things are compared to that. Your brain
    templates the characteristics of the sound and uses template matching to fit or not fit any sound to its new reference. Like people, speakers start aging from day one, albeit slowly...

    Having said all that, just forget it and enjoy the hell out of your new speakers!!!!!"


    And this one about the mechanical side

    "There are moving parts, but there is no friction: the parts are moving in a floating magnetic gap. The edge and the spider, being of some kind or kinds of a rubber compound eventually wear out. They never get better, only worse."

    Mind you this is from someone who has been in the business a long time and has had a lot of experiece in research and development on speakers. Is it true? I'd like to believe it. That means I don't need expensive speaker cable anymore! Just good thick cable.

    But here is the most important part of this post. Who really cares so long as you have a system that you really love! If you like to audition speaker cable and can afford expensive stuff then go do it! at the very least you won't get worse performace and you help the ecomony grow at the same time.

    Howie
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited August 2003
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    Howie,
    You are my new hero!! Having been slammed, blasted, and flamed because I don't believe in "Break in" or "Burn-In" It's great to see other members jump into the deep end with out fear! Having worked in the Aerospace field, Computer high density storage field, and the cable manufacturing field I know "Bunk" when I hear it. Go Man Go!!
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,054
    edited August 2003
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    Only thing I can hear a difference with over time. Which i think is mainly a tolerance forming in your ears. Is tweeter 'break in'. It gets smoother everytime I listen to it and not so harsh.

    Other than that, I think it is BS. I play my speakers as loud as they will go out of the box as loud as I will 1-2 years from now. It dosn't change in sound quality. Only thing that has changed the sound quality was different speakers, sources, amps - etc. Break in...right.....I agree with Frank
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • burdette
    burdette Posts: 1,194
    edited August 2003
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    Frank... I'm a little confused at your jubilant response. There are plenty of us here who have consistently said that break-in is bunk. Not coincidence that we EEs have been in that crowd. Even in this thread, H and I both bunked burn-in. At MOST, we said MAYBE there is something to a new speaker being a little mechancially stiff right off the line, depending on size, surround material and spider. And the post by our newest EE pretty much even put that "maybe" to rest. Any 'break-in' after day one is simply the speaker already beginning to wear out.

    Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
    ....mainly a tolerance forming in your ears. Is tweeter 'break in'. It gets smoother everytime I listen to it and not so harsh.
    Other than that, I think it is BS.

    That paragraph is internally inconsistent. Your ears getting used to the sound of new speakers has absolutely nothing to do with the sort of break-in being discussed here, i.e. change in the driver. You can believe what you want, either way... but you've put a foot on each side of the ideological fence and in the process put splinters in your marble bag.
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited August 2003
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    burdette,
    The last time I waded into the deep end of the "Break-in" pool (here) I got the worst flaming of my life from a select few (no names needed). I realize that there are more non-believers than believers round here, but it's nice to see someone else (specially a new guy) come out and take a stand! No disrespect intended toward anyone!!
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • burdette
    burdette Posts: 1,194
    edited August 2003
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    Not a matter of disrespect at all, Frank. Just wanted to let you know that if/when you choose to jump into the fray again, there *will* be people who have your back.... and many of us are ingunears.... even elektricul.

    But really, as always... if it makes a guy feel better to believe it, or if it makes a guy feel better to buy it (and he isn't robbing food from his kids' mouths to do it)... hey, it's all good.

    I auditioned Hbomb's system a few weeks ago and absolutely heard the difference between two different DACs. Not quite the same because obviously differences in DACs are easily measureable ... but at least I know I'm not just hardcore "no differences ever". Now... on the good turntable and cheap speakers we used to audition... I could NOT hear a difference between my 15 year old Onkyo built-in phono preamp and the new outboard one he'd just bought.
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited August 2003
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    I'm a believer, but on some speaks more than others. My little B&W's seemed to really 'calm down' after a couple days use. Started out bright, noticeably different than my in-store demo.

    My recently aquired (new) Paradigm Monitor 3's stated in the manual that they would break-in, and sound different after a week of use. I've run them for approx 30hrs so far, I haven't noticed a lick of difference (that I can remember anyway)

    Cables? Man, I have no idea. I've never heard a difference. Some companies recommend it. On all my MIT purchases, speaker cables and interconns, they publish a leaflet with a 2-2 (two two) rule. 75% of the performance in 2 days, 100% in 2 weeks. They even go as far to say that if you don't just leave your rig on for the 2 weeks, to make a friggin' TIME LOG, so you know when they've passed the burn period!

    Audio voodoo - doodoo? I don't really care either way BECAUSE, if one actually *uses* the gear in question, it will pass the time period for break / burn in regardless if it is needed.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • burdette
    burdette Posts: 1,194
    edited August 2003
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    Russ... you should contact Paradigm and ask them the reason in their mind that break-in is necessary.. or what it is that happens. It would be interesting to hear what they had to say.

    The B&Ws... come on.. I mean, they're British...

    If they started bright and then 'calmed down'... that *could* be due to.. if you believe that sort of thing.. the woofer working through stiffness.... sort of like you guys worked through your stiffness the other day when Doc posted that photo of his wife.

    I don't know... the soft rubber surround of Polk's 6.5inchers... I don't see that changing much. The *heavy* rubber surround on my 12" sub driver.... just life experience in general on things like shoes or home improvement stuff or work on cars... I really don't have much problem believing that certain materials could loosen up a bit initially once they.. you know.. got broken in. Ha ha ha.

    You know .... it could be.... COULD be... that the air molecules within the cabinet have to get used to getting all squashed together. Sort of like a junior high school dance. All the boy molecules are over here.. and all the girl molecules are over THERE... and nary the twain shall meet... until at least a few songs have passed.
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  • organ
    organ Posts: 4,969
    edited August 2003
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    I believe in speaker break in. My experience is similar to Sean's. With my 800i, I don't think there was a difference, but my LSi took about a month. Here's something else. I bought my RT5's as an open box demo. When I got home, I found out one of them was blown. I took both speakers back to the store and they were sent to Polk for repair. They came back a few weeks later with a new woofer, tweeter, and x-over on one of them. The surounds on the new woofer was stiff as hell compared to the one that has been used.

    When it comes to speaker break-in, cabes, bi-wiring, you are your own judge. If I hear a difference, I'm sticking to it. Even if an EE tells me there's no difference I wouldn't care. The EE at Bose also tells us Bose makes the best products. I'm taking EE and an instructor once told the whole class that you won't hear a difference if your speakers are not wired in phase. He also said that people will not hear frequecies under 60hz. I was angry but didn't do anything because that's his opinion.

    Maurice
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  • howie777
    howie777 Posts: 357
    edited August 2003
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    Hey this is fun.

    Just a note, I doubt any EE at Bose would say they have the best products. That would be the marketing guys, the EE will be mad because they had to cut cost out of the speakers to make the managment happy! What do you mean I need to shave $3.23 off the material cost! I need to add $10.43 to really make these speakers sing! lousy managment what do they know anyway! (Now you understand why I'm only a EE, I'd run the company out of business in no time if I had things my way)

    Unfortunatly that is the job of the EE. Making a product worse than it was to make managment happy and therefore keeping his/her job another week.

    Howie
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited August 2003
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    If you can break in a speaker, it stands to reason that you can also wear it out over time...just thinking out loud.

    Don't forget to vote...early and often!!:D

    http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=110798#post110798
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • organ
    organ Posts: 4,969
    edited August 2003
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    Yeah, that's really too bad. Didn't Bose have good speakers when they first started? Those classic wide bookshelfs?

    Maurice
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited August 2003
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    Originally posted by Frank Z
    If you can break in a speaker, it stands to reason that you can also wear it out over time...just thinking out loud.

    Are you suggesting that speakers and/or the components don't wear out? I've got to believe that they will "wear out" over time and use. I know my AR4xs are certainly worn out from 30 years of use (not abuse).
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited August 2003
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    I guess I'm saying that if speaker break-in is a consideration, then wearing out a speaker should get equal billing. Just think about it, there may be a lot people out there buying speakers for a lot of money that are worn out! Does it make sense to buy those speakers (SDA's) off ebay or audiogon, chances are they could very well be worn out. OR....speaker surrounds maintain there shape and will last forever! Again, just thinking out loud.
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited August 2003
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    Fwiw,

    Email sent to P-dime.

    Cheers,
    Rooster
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited August 2003
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    Originally posted by howie777


    "There are moving parts, but there is no friction: the parts are moving in a floating magnetic gap. The edge and the spider, being of some kind or kinds of a rubber compound eventually wear out. They never get better, only worse."

    Originally posted by howie777


    "There are moving parts, but there is no friction:


    did we just invent perpetual motion? I'll hold back on my investment
    :p

    Twin
    ***WAREMTAE***
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