Looking for bookshelf to pair with PSW10

giantjoebot

So I have been working on a small project to put together my own 2.1 computer speaker system using polk speakers. I already had some T15 bookshelf speakers, and I got a PSW10. They sound good at low to moderate levels, but not so good at higher levels. I like to rock out sometimes when no one is home, always have always will. I had the T15's as my rears in a 5.1, and they did great, but by themselves they just leave e wanting more. SO I would like to return the T15's to my rear of my 5.1, and replace them with something better, and I was wondering if I could get some advice as to what to get.

I don't want to spend over $150

This is what I was thinking.

Monitor 30 (if I can find them in black)
Monitor 40 (kind of deep at 12" but might be best for higher volumes due to extra driver)
TSi100 (if I can get a pair of refurbs in black)

It sucks because I'm ready to buy now, but they only thing that is available are the Monitor 40's, which I would love to get, but they might look really funky on my desk due to the 12" depth. Newegg has Monitor 30's on sale, but only in cherry, black is sold out. From what I could find about the Monitor 30's on polks website, it looks like they were discontinued, which makes me wonder if newegg, or polks factory store will have anymore in stock in the near future, which would be just my luck.

JimAckley

Definitely 40s. And if you want to crank it up, I'd start saving for a new sub.

gsxr141

http://cgi.ebay.com/PAIR-Monitor-40-Black-Bookshelf-speakers-Polk-Audio-/390287914584?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item5adef8f658
http://cgi.ebay.com/PAIR-Monitor-30-BLACK-Bookshelf-Speakers-Polk-/230586192042?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item35b00210aa
http://cgi.ebay.com/PAIR-TSi100-Black-Bookshelf-Speakers-Polk-Audio-/390289323955?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item5adf0e77b3

giantjoebot

I was thinking that the 40's would be better for higher volumes, and they do seem like a good value. My desk is only 24", so they are going to come out half way, but I think I can make them work.

I think you might be right, a down firing sub might work a lot better in this situation.

Wow thanks gsxr141, I was just on there and didn't see these.

I just realized something. With the 30's and the TSi100 the tweeter are not going to be at ear level since its below the driver, I might have to put them on stands. I wouldn't have to do that with the 40's since the tweeter in in the middle. Then again, stands might be a good thing, and I could probably throw something together pretty cheap since they would only need to be a few inches.

JimAckley

Well before you throw money at the Monitors, I would invest in a more powerful sub. The T15s aren't a bad speaker at all, and can handle more power than your PSW10 can. It's supposed to be the other way around, haha. If you've got the room for a PSW505, they can be had for a good price on Newegg. It's going to be a night/day difference from the PSW10.

What are you using as a receiver/amp right now?

giantjoebot

I have to disagree, the PSW10 seems to be able to handle more than the T15's. And while I would love to buy a nicer sub, I have a budget that I'm trying to stick to, and the psw505 is almost equal to that budget, even at neweggs price.

I also think its a matter of taste. Take for instance, I see a lot of computer speaker systems that have these huge subs and tiny satellite speakers. Personally I think they don't sound good. I like a setup that has a good blend.

The other thing is, I can still use the the T15's on my 5.1 for rear speakers. I replaced them with a pair of sony bookshelf speakers that I had in storage, and I really want to put the T15s back! Not sure what I'll do with the sonys, maybe put them back in storage or donate them to a friend or family member. The Sonys are fine for movies, but I can really tell the difference when playing music. I don't really have a use for the PSW10, I already have a 200w 12" sub and 2 monkey coffins with 12" woofers as my fronts in my 5.1.

Sorry I tend to think out loud.

JimAckley

The 50w RMS PSW10 can handle more than the 100w RMS ea. T15s? I'm pretty surprised. I suppose if you don't have them crossed over and are using any sort of bass boost, then that could be possible, but I don't see a 50w subwoofer running toe-to-toe with 200w of highs. Typically, because bass frequencies require so much more power, your subwoofer's power should come close to matching the rest of the system.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with upgrading to some Monitor 40s. I just think the biggest difference is going to be swapping the sub.

And I think out loud too. It's what happens when your sanity goes bye bye haha.

You never did tell me what you're powering them with...

giantjoebot

Im not sure if I want to get into this discussion, and I'm not sure if I have enough knowledge to debate what you are saying. If your talking about max output the PSW10 is 100W, and so are the each of the T15's, but I think its a little more complicated than just comparing rms numbers.

Im currently using a TA2020 D class amp, very small, very power efficient, but only 20 watts per channel. The funny thing is that I only need to turn it up half volume before I worry about pissing off the neighbors. I do have it connected with the audio source to the amp, then the amp goes to the sub, and then from the sub to the bookshelf speakers. I believe thats what you call cross over. But this does not alter the sound of the bookshelves at all, they get the full signal. I honestly thought that there would be some bass separation, but there isn't. There is no difference between going through the sub and connecting directly to the amp. The only difference is that the sub use the audio signal from the amp rather than directly from the audio source, my computer. So when I adjust the volume on the amp, it adjust with all the speakers at once.

I was looking at used receivers on ebay, so I could run the bookshelf speakers as SMALL. It may make a difference, but I also think I might just need a better quality speaker.

I think that a downward firing sub would be better in this situation, and I would love to have a better sounding sub, but I by no means need a more powerful sub. At least its enough for me, and this small room. What I would like to get is some better bookshelf speakers, because my ears are telling me the T15's just aren't cutting it. There is just something missing, not sure how to explain it.

On3s&Z3r0s

If better sound into the bass end of the spectrum and the ability to go louder are objectives, I'd vote for the 40's also, but I've never heard the TSi100's. I haven't heard the T15's either but Polk seems to market them as a home theater surround speaker. Doesn't mean they can't sound good as a 2-channel bookshelf, just probably that they weren't engineered with that as the number 1 priority.

That being said, if your speakers sound good at moderate volume and bad at high volume my guess would be you're starting to hear distortion at the higher volumes because of the amp as much as the speakers. If that's the case then going to a bigger speaker isn't going to help you any. Once you get to the half-way (12 o'clock) position on the volume knob you're definitely in the area where you should expect to hear distortion on a smaller amp. If you have another amp you could try in this system briefly, it might help you figure out whether your problem is more with the speaks or with the amp. Maybe even try your HT amp. I know it's a pain to unhook and rehook everything up, but that's time you'd only be spending shopping for speakers anyway. If your amp is being overdriven and you want to stick with it, then you might want to look into more efficient speakers (like maybe the Klipsch) but those are going to be more expensive probably.

Regarding the sub, I agree with you that that's not your biggest concern right now. I have the PSW 505, and I wouldn't recommend it in your case. Again, I think it's a home theater sub, it's not meant to provide musical bass for a bookshelf system. I tried mine that way with some 2-way floorstanders that I thought needed bass help, and it didn't sound good.

giantjoebot

Wow On3s&Z3r0s its like you're reading my mind. Its going to be a few days before I can rip out my ht amp. I have other obligations that come first. It would probably be easier to hook up everything in my living room, and just switch it to stereo

I do want to return my T15's to my surround setup. Even at low and moderate levels they sound good, but just not right you know. Im already itching to buy some new speakers. Do I really have to do that first? Well I'm going to at least sleep on it. Any more advice would be greatly appreciated.

JimAckley

Just to explain myself, the PSW10's output is 100w peak, but all it can do on a constant basis is 50w, hence me designating it as a 50w subwoofer.

...back to the topic on hand...

Now that you've finally told us what you're using to power your speakers, I think getting away from the 20wpc amplifier to something with a little more juice and the ability to crossover will make the biggest difference, regardless of which speakers you go for. Your amplifier as of right now is the weakest link in your system. A receiver with Monitor 40s is going to sound pretty darn good. Even if it's powering the T15s. I wish I could crossover my HK and limit my LSi7s' bass output since I have two 8"s under my desk taking care of that, but I can't. I'm not in a worry though, since it puts around 150w through my mains and they are rated up to 150w

I consider the 505 at the higher end of entry-level subs, which is why I was recommending it. When I've helped buddies set up their HTs and play music through it, I didn't think it was bad, but that's just my opinion. Sure, there are more musical subs out there, but it's a decent all-around sub. Regardless, if you want your bass keep up with your highs, you're going to want to step up to a higher amount of power. A PSW10 isn't going to keep up with fully-powered set of Monitor 40s. There are much better subwoofers out there.

giantjoebot

I see 50 watt sub. If the 40's are going to over power the PSW10 with a proper amp, then maybe I should just buy something smaller like the 30's or the TSi100's. But that means I would have to build stands, which isn't a problem its just more work. Dam it, why dod they have yo put the tweeters on the bottom? I guess I could get another brand, but I don't know of any that I can get for less than $150

I thought this was going to be so simple and easy, and its turning out to be a lot more difficult.

JimAckley

I couldn't agree more about the tweeters. They did that on the 30s too. What about Monitor 30s w/ wallmounts?

edit:
Also keep in mind that by stepping down from Monitor 40s to the TSi100s or Monitor 30s, your main speakers can't produce as much bass, which means your sub will have to handle more. By using Monitor 40s, you could use a slightly lower crossover point, taking some of the load off of your '10.

cnh

According to the WEB that amp is a 20 watt per channel class-T (a hybrid digital to A/B amp, our experts can elaborate on that). It's stats claim that it has a .03 THD at 10 watts at 4 ohms? But that the distortion RISES very quickly to 10 percent at 22 watts? or 13 watts and 10% THD for an 8 ohm load. R15s are 8 ohms!

So I think On3.... has a point above. According to Polk stats the power requirements for R15s are from 20 watts per channel to 100 watts at 8 ohms with a sensitivity of 89 db. So they are moderately efficient speakers that would 'benefit' from a bit MORE power?

This seems to be the case as you are reaching 'distortion' levels way too easily with those? In all probability the amp is clipping a lot? And as a kind of digital 'hybrid' amp that clipping should sound PRETTY harsh!

Your amp is a small desktop probably better suited for some computer monitor speakers than Polk bookshelves IMO.

Also with Jim, running decent bookshelves off the amp inside the PSW10...not a good idea. That should also lead to pretty quick distortion. Remember the amp in there is 50 watts RMS to power EVERYTHING..two bookshelves and the 10" sub??? Or am I misreading what you're doing?

cnh

On3s&Z3r0s

I should clarify that I didn't mean to bash the 505. I have mine set up to round out the low bass when I use my HT rig (M70 fronts) for 2-channel music. I just meant that if you're going to buy a sub specifically for this 2-channel system, that one wouldn't be my choice. I'd try to be patient with what I had until I could afford maybe something in the DSW Pro series.

Also, @giantjoebot, yeah hooking up to HT amp in your HT room isn't a bad idea if you just want to get an idea of what the T15's are capable of with more power. If it's a 7.1 amp it probably has a Zone-B option instead of rear surrounds and that would simplify setup. You might want to take your class T amp into the same room for a side-by-side comparison if that's feasible. Good luck!

On3s&Z3r0s

cnh wrote: »

Also with Jim, running decent bookshelves off the amp inside the PSW10...not a good idea. That should also lead to pretty quick distortion. Remember the amp in there is 50 watts RMS to power EVERYTHING..two bookshelves and the 10" sub??? Or am I misreading what you're doing?

cnh

I don't totally understand how all the sub amps work, but I'm pretty sure that when you're using the speaker-level inputs/outputs on your sub, the power for the speakers is still coming from whatever separate power amp you're using, not the subwoofer's amp. The subwoofer just "looks at" the speaker level signal and amplifies the low part with its internal plate amp and passes the full signal on to the speakers from its outputs. I would think the amount of juice lost to being passed through the sub would have to be fairly negligible or we'd see more people advising against hooking speakers up this way. But I'll admit that I'm sorta guessing here.

cnh

On3s&Z3r0s wrote: »

I don't totally understand how all the sub amps work, but I'm pretty sure that when you're using the speaker-level inputs/outputs on your sub, the power for the speakers is still coming from whatever separate power amp you're using, not the subwoofer's amp. The subwoofer just "looks at" the speaker level signal and amplifies the low part with it's internal plate amp and passes the full signal on to the speakers from its outputs. I would think the amount of juice lost to being passed through the sub would have to be fairly negligible or we'd see more people advising against hooking speakers up this way. But I'll admit that I'm sorta guessing here.

You're right. I was guessing too, as some people here have actually tried to run their bookshelves DIRECTLY FROM the Sub amp 'only'?

That's all I was advising against. It's fine to wire the sub to the amp using High Level speaker terminals and running the L/R from the SUB High Level OUTPUTS. Although that might not produce the 'cleanest' sound you can get by wiring separately?

cnh

On3s&Z3r0s

cnh wrote: »

That's all I was advising against. It's fine to wire the sub to the amp using High Level speaker terminals and running the L/R from the SUB High Level OUTPUTS. Although that might not produce the 'cleanest' sound you can get by wiring separately?

cnh

Yeah, I definitely agree with you there. I think your best 2.1 or 2.2 sound would come from an amp that had all the right outputs and crossover options like the HK 3490, for example, which I think was JimAckley's point also. But then every audio system I have would be set up much differently and with much different components if budget/space/wife wasn't an issue. :biggrin:

giantjoebot

The sub just looks at the signal.

You know I thought that the amp would have problems, but I posted on diyaudio, and they said I should get it. I'll keep an eye on eBay for a decent receiver, I'll just mount it under my desk. With what I'm doing it doesn't matter if I get an older model.

giantjoebot

Hows the HK ebay store?

http://stores.ebay.com/harmanaudio

On3s&Z3r0s

giantjoebot wrote: »

Hows the HK ebay store?

http://stores.ebay.com/harmanaudio

Good... lots of guys on the board have recommended buying from there if you can find what you're looking for. Newegg also has the 3490 at $280... I think that's a good price. I think I was wrong about it having a configurable crossover.