Second pair of main speakers ? Why ?

Mongo

Gents,

Please, is there a specific reason why someone should use a second pair of main speakers ?

If so, what would be the ideal location for them in the listening room ?

Thanks,

Mongo

JimAckley

Some people have a 5.1 or 7.1 receiver, and they'll have one set of speakers on set A designed for home theater use, but a second set on set B that is better for stereo sound like some SDAs. This lets them not be limited by just a HT rig or just a 2-ch setup, so they can have the ultimate sound in either situation

Face

Mongo wrote: »

Please, is there a specific reason why someone should use a second pair of main speakers ?

If you're referring to 2 channel stereo, it's because they don't know what good sound is or have lousy speakers.

newrival

Face wrote: »

If you're referring to 2 channel stereo, it's because they don't know what good sound is or have lousy speakers.

huh??

I'm not into it, but I've heard speaker "stacks" that sounded pretty decent. I also have seen people run 3 sets of stereo speakers because each erformed differently and the owner liked to listen to certin sets with different music and none of the speakers were lousy and I assure you he understood good sound.

Face

Do you understand what imaging is?

cnh

What does the OP mean? Running both sets of mains at the same time? Or, having a set of mains for HT and a separate set of mains for two channel powered by an external amp and/or a separate Pre-amp with a HT bypass? Because I can understand reasons for the second option.

Face is right about sound smearing with too much up front running at the same time.

cnh

nguyendot

It depends if they have them to run separately or not. Running multiple sets at once will destroy imaging. The sound will sound like its coming from all over the place, which is not good.

newrival

Face wrote: »

Do you understand what imaging is?

Is this to me or the OP?

treitz3

To you, newrival.

newrival

of course i do. What have I said that would allude that I might not???
Because I answered the actual question without being flippant?

The OP asked, "is there a specific reason why someone should use a second pair of main speakers ?"

To which I offered 2 reasons why someone might, in contrast to Face's blanket statement that if some one has more than one set of mains, they must surely be a dunce or have crappy equipment (paraphrasing). While "stacking" will effect imaging it doesnt make someone some type of knuckle-dragging cretin and was common practice a few decades ago, with favorable results to the listeners. Like I said, I'm not into the practice of speaker stacking or the sound it produces, but I heard an old advent stack running on an SX-1280 that was fun to listen to.

So, "is there a specific reason why someone should use a second pair of main speakers ?" Obviously there are. Agree with them or not, people do it. And not because they don't know "good sound" or "have lousy speakers."

And as to my other example of the guy i know with multiple sets on a speaker selector, this will virtually have no effect on imaging, or SQ for that matter, if not placed in obviously poor locations.

treitz3

You questioned Face's statement. That's what alluded us to you that you might not.

Allow me to answer the question as to whether or not 2 speakers used for mains would be good or not. This from a post I made a while back.

Yes and no.

Let me tell you where I arrived at this conclusion. A few years back, I tried blowing thousands of dollars to make two speakers provide all of the frequencies I was looking for. The reason I did this is because at the time, I had yet to hear a speaker that would give me ALL of the frequencies I was looking for. Went through probably 13 amplifiers, 3 or pairs of speakers, boxes and boxes of SC's, PC's and IC's, couple of CD players, couple of pre's, 4 or 5 subs, blah, blah, blah....to finally get what I was looking for because [again] I hadn't heard one speaker that did it all for me.

That system actually had a nickname. She was called "Crackbaby" because it was generally considered a "non-conventional" rig. Now, I did finally achieve what I wanted in sound/frequencies after blowing about $24,000.00 or so in gear. It sounded wonderful and provided me with many countless hours of sonic bliss. My only issue or gripe was that there were sometimes an image smearing that would occur. For instance, on a ladies vocal. You hear her singing one word with a couple of different notes, right? Well, what would happen is that her spatial location would all of a sudden move [even though she and her spatial location didn't] when the notes would change up and down. That would drive me nuckin' futz!

So, one year I packed up my whole rig and brought it to an audio event where many people including Mr. Bob Carver were attending. There were very few people that listened to that rig that had gripes. Those that did have a gripe, had the same one I had. That occasional image smearing that I somehow couldn't fix, no matter what I did or what I tried.

Now, along my audio journey came a great lesson from Mr. Carver during this event...he came upstairs to listen to my rig and we had a blast just sittin' back and discussing audio whilst listening to some tunes and me enjoying my normal cold beer(s). At the end of the listening session, he pulled me aside and told me that though there were many rigs set up at the event, this one stood out amongst the crowd. I thanked him and then he asked me if I was satisfied with it. My immediate answer, "No."

He asked why and then I went into my normal analytical observations of what he eventually told me was lobing. That there WAS no way to correct that issue until I went down to one speaker. The fact that I had two mains was the actual issue, even though that system didn't have the right to sound as good as it did.

Since that day, I have sold most of that gear and moved on to a KISS [Keep It Simple Stupid] system. It has taken me over two more years and many more trial and error changes to find what I once had in that system, this time with only one pair of mains. I [Praise Jesus!] have once again achieved my goal. This time with only one set of mains and no lobing issue.

So, that said? Yes and no.

Basically, if all you are looking for is the frequencies? Two speakers may do it for you but it comes at a cost. That cost is lobing of the imaging. This is why Face asked if you understood what imaging actually was.

Now, if he only used one speaker at a time? That's another story but even that comes with a compromise due to not being able to place both mains in the optimal spot at the same time. Even things on, at or near the speaker affect it's playback capabilities.

In a nutshell, I completely agree with Face's statement. I went well beyond "just trying to find out" if it was a good thing or not. The only way I would ever utilize a system like that again would be in a bar, or setting that the listener wasn't listening for the image. That or, the listener never had the chance to hear the true image in the first place, due to constant movement or other interruptions.

Below is one of the best ways I have heard lobing explained in layman's terms.

Lobing is interference of the sound waves radiated from two sources, leading to an irregular off-axis response. That means that at some frequencies there will be peaks, and at others there will be troughs, varying depending on what angle you are at relative to the drivers.

To understand how it happens, imagine a sine wave being radiated from the two drivers. The wave has a particular wavelength. If you are at an equal distance from both drivers, then there will be the same number of wavelengths of the sine wave to each driver and they add together at your ears, resulting in you hearing something twice as loud as the output of a single driver.

Now imagine you are at an angle such that one driver is further away by half a wavelength. Now when the two waves reach your ears they are out of phase. Where one wave is at a peak, the other is at a trough, so they cancel completely and you hear nothing.

At a different angle the difference in distance may be a whole wavelength and the two waves sum together again.

megasat16

Lobing is not an issue for running multiple Tower or Main Speakers if you use the same source, same length and type of wires and I/Cs, amps and preamp and put the speakers very close together and separate both L & R further than with one pair of speakers. (i.e. two L speakers will be only an inch or two apart and two R speakers will be only an inch or two apart while all L & R speakers are spaced wider than you would regularly used for one pair).

Running Multiple speakers in this manner will 1. increase efficiency 2. increase dynamic 3. increase soundstage 4. decrease distortion.

But it's not for everyone. You need to know what you are doing and depends on what speakers you are doing it with. The mains with very wide cabinet may not work well for the running a few pairs I described above. I did that with LSi25 which have very narrow cabinets. But still, I just listened to one pair of speakers in my HT room for music. But two pairs doesn't hurt anything or mess up the soundstage for me.

By all means, I am not trying to argue with what is said above. I am just sharing real practical findings from what I did.

newrival

treitz, i always appreciate the well thought out response. Sometimes I get bothered by people that only denigrate and misrepresent an answer or completely avoid the discussion. I expect it in places like AK or or AVS but I think of the people that come to this forum (polk customers) and get snide remarks (not talking specifically about this thread) and it seems in contrast to the spirit that is typically championed here. Just an opinion and observation. anyways, thanks again.

Face

megasat16 wrote: »

By all means, I am not trying to argue with what is said above. I am just sharing real practical findings from what I did.

I bet a microphone would say different.

Mongo

Thanks to everybody that replied.

I've asked this question because I'm considering installing, BEHIND the listening position, a second set of speakers to listen to STEREO music.

But I wonder; let`s say that I have behind me a pair of RTiA3's, would they spoil the beautiful sound coming from the front RTiA9's ?

Thanks,

Mongo

quadzilla

Having speakers behind you is fine for surround. For mains to listen to music, you'll find that having the speakers behind you will provide a very sub-optimal listening experience. Just play some music through your current set up, then face the back of the room to understand what I'm talking about.

megasat16

Face wrote: »

I bet a microphone would say different.

Like what can it say? :cool::biggrin:

megasat16

Mongo wrote: »

Thanks to everybody that replied.

I've asked this question because I'm considering installing, BEHIND the listening position, a second set of speakers to listen to STEREO music.

But I wonder; let`s say that I have behind me a pair of RTiA3's, would they spoil the beautiful sound coming from the front RTiA9's ?

Thanks,

Mongo

No! You should not have any problem as long as you are not using both sets of speakers for listening stereo music at the same time.

TNRabbit

The best possible scenario for multiple mains would be stacked on top of one another, probably top to top (top set upside down on the bottom set), like this:

O
o
x
-
x
o
O

Make sense? It's a slippery slope, to be sure.

Mongo

Thanks to everybody that replied,

Mongo

treitz3

Mongo, if you are planning on using another set of mains....you can set the speakers anywhere you want. It's your world. That said, if you plan on using the receiver to power all of them at the same time? Big mistake.

I tried that too many, many, many moons ago with a receiver. Hell, I've tried most everything. Here's what I remember happening. The image was non-existent, the sound did somewhat envelop the room with sound but only at lower listening levels. At higher listening levels, the sound degraded severely due to amplifier exhaustion. I was only able to achieve about 3/4 of the volume level I had with only one set of mains running. Even at lower listening levels, some of the sheer musicality and the urge to just sit back and tap your toes just wasn't there anymore.

Even then, the amp was so exhausted that it sounded grainy, strained and completely lacked "thump" in the bass. To me, it was a waste of money and time and even though it was worth the try just to find out for myself? In hindsight, it wasn't really worth it. That system only lasted about a week and the 2nd set of mains were sold off.

I'm telling you this so that you don't make the same mistake I did, just to satisfy your curiosity.

Stereo reproduction should only be listened to with two speakers. Anything else is a compromise in sound.

Mongo

treitz3 wrote: »

Mongo, if you are planning on using another set of mains....you can set the speakers anywhere you want. It's your world. That said, if you plan on using the receiver to power all of them at the same time? Big mistake.

I tried that too many, many, many moons ago with a receiver. Hell, I've tried most everything. Here's what I remember happening. The image was non-existent, the sound did somewhat envelop the room with sound but only at lower listening levels. At higher listening levels, the sound degraded severely due to amplifier exhaustion. I was only able to achieve about 3/4 of the volume level I had with only one set of mains running. Even at lower listening levels, some of the sheer musicality and the urge to just sit back and tap your toes just wasn't there anymore.

Even then, the amp was so exhausted that it sounded grainy, strained and completely lacked "thump" in the bass. To me, it was a waste of money and time and even though it was worth the try just to find out for myself? In hindsight, it wasn't really worth it. That system only lasted about a week and the 2nd set of mains were sold off.

I'm telling you this so that you don't make the same mistake I did, just to satisfy your curiosity.

Stereo reproduction should only be listened to with two speakers. Anything else is a compromise in sound.

Thanks so much !

Mongo