MECA 2011 Season

MacLeod

Since traffic has been kinda light around here and Im hitting my first show of '11 tomorrow, I figured Id start a thread thats all about me.....er I mean the upcoming MECA season. If nothing else, itll give everybody a place to make fun of me when I lose and Cody a place to just make fun of me period.

So since the SR tweeters are no more and tweeters blow left and right in competitions I decided to play around with some other raw tweeters from Madisound so I can have plenty of spares. Tried some Morel MDT-12's and while theyre pretty good tweeters, something about them I just didnt like that much. Maybe theyd be better off with some warmer sounding speakers but the livelier sound of the SR's just wasnt a good match.

So I tried some LPG aluminums and I think I really like them. They match very well with my beloved SR mids and give the image a more crisp, focused sound. String instruments sound almost 3D and horns have a nice brassy sound to them now. However the usual trade off pops up which is a brassy sound to vocals. I havent had a whole lot of time to tune on them but as of now theyre sitting at 3.2K @ 24 db/oct with the mids at the same settings.

4KHz, worked pretty good but they seem to be focusing up better down at 3.2. Im gonna let it sit for a few hours and go back out and listen again just to make sure Im right. Your ears can get used to anything and I cant count the times I thought I had it nailed, go back out the next day and wonder what the hell I was thinking.

To compensate for the 5's midbass, Im trying a little something by bumping 80 Hz. Makes the standup bass parts a little boomier but gives better pucnh in the kick drums.

I havent listened to another car since finals of 09 so there is no telling what kind of crap Ive got out set. Could be Ive grown used to those LPG's and its bright enough to put your eyes out. Tomorrow is a 3 judge show so Ill get some good input at least. I have a feeling its either gonna be really good or really bad.

Vital

Just seen this post day so.... how did u do? Are we gonna see "2011" in your sig now

kawizx9r

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread for sure.

Btw, would like to know what you end up settling with regarding tweeters. I've got the madisound Vifa tweeters, but if there's something closer to the real thing I'm all ears.

Goodluck to you bro!

Jstas

Make fun of you? Who does that? People should be ADMIRING you! Not just anyone can make a 4 sided cube!

arun1963

MacLeod wrote: »

Since traffic has been kinda light around here and Im hitting my first show of '11 tomorrow, I figured Id start a thread thats all about me.....er I mean the upcoming MECA season. If nothing else, itll give everybody a place to make fun of me when I lose and Cody a place to just make fun of me period.

Congrats and best of luck. May the Ford badge shine in the lanes this year. :biggrin:

MacLeod wrote: »

So since the SR tweeters are no more and tweeters blow left and right in competitions, I decided to play around with some other raw tweeters from Madisound so I can have plenty of spares. Tried some Morel MDT-12's and while theyre pretty good tweeters, something about them I just didnt like that much. Maybe theyd be better off with some warmer sounding speakers but the livelier sound of the SR's just wasnt a good match.

Probably too laid back.

MacLeod wrote: »

So I tried some LPG aluminums and I think I really like them. They match very well with my beloved SR mids and give the image a more crisp, focused sound. String instruments sound almost 3D and horns have a nice brassy sound to them now. However the usual trade off pops up which is a brassy sound to vocals. I havent had a whole lot of time to tune on them but as of now theyre sitting at 3.2K @ 24 db/oct with the mids at the same settings.

4KHz, worked pretty good but they seem to be focusing up better down at 3.2. Im gonna let it sit for a few hours and go back out and listen again just to make sure Im right. Your ears can get used to anything and I cant count the times I thought I had it nailed, go back out the next day and wonder what the hell I was thinking.

With your processing power you should be able to get the tweets down to 2.5khz on a 24db slope. I have my 6500 mid at 4 khz again on a 24db slope, with the 5250 you can prob go up to 6khz. Remember what you told me about 1.25khz and the way it measures vs the way it sounds? Well chances are 1 or 2 frequencies between 4-12khz are behaving the same way. With a low xover I have 0 brassiness even on female vocals, I'm talking, Sarah McLachlan, Immogen heap (yeah yeah I know), but it works.

MacLeod wrote: »

To compensate for the 5's midbass, Im trying a little something by bumping 80 Hz. Makes the standup bass parts a little boomier but gives better pucnh in the kick drums.

I havent listened to another car since finals of 09 so there is no telling what kind of crap Ive got out set. Could be Ive grown used to those LPG's and its bright enough to put your eyes out. Tomorrow is a 3 judge show so Ill get some good input at least. I have a feeling its either gonna be really good or really bad.

Assuming that you're x'ing around 50hz with the 5250, try boosting both 50 and 80 while cutting a bit at 125-200hz. You prob already tried this.

Jstas wrote: »

Make fun of you? Who does that? People should be ADMIRING you! Not just anyone can make a 4 sided cube!

IIRC it was a 5 sided box. 4, is poetic licence. Wonder what Mac has to say about that.......

MacLeod

Wow! Just wow! Just listened to Steve Cooks Avalanche. Gawdamighty I've got a long way to go.

Jstas

arun1963 wrote: »

IIRC it was a 5 sided box. 4, is poetic licence. Wonder what Mac has to say about that.......

You recalled incorrectly.

Then again, I'm not really sure how you could recall it at all since the gaffe happened over 3 years before you showed up here:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21907&highlight=sides


Took a while to find it. Especially since Mac edited it. Thankfully neo had quoted it before he had the chance to fix it!

MacLeod

Going all out this year fellas. Moved up to Modified and am gonna go with mids and tweets in the dash. Gonna stick them under the a pillar trim panel then cut it out and wrap it with with grill cloth. I'll go with midbass in the doors.

exalted512

How'd the competition go?

Hopefully, if I get a good enough paying job, I can start working on my truck again. I'm going to have to send my amp off to get fixed and hope they can figure out whats wrong with it. I'm also see if partsexpress can recone my XLS driver. It blew when my RF T8002 decided it would be a good idea to start outputting DC voltage.

Once I get those 2 things done, I'll start seriously working on everything again. Until then, its not even in my top 10 things to do right now.

Good luck with the new season mac!
-Cody

Ern Dog

I don't usually pop my head over here in the Car Audio section.

Sounds like there's some good things brewing down here in the shop!

MacLeod

I won my class so WOOHOO for that. Did it with a Street install too so a big thanks to the SR's.

Ive got a good plan too. The legendary Steve Cook was there and gave me a great idea. The area behind the a pillar trim panel is pretty large and flat. I could take a 3" dome mid like the Morel CDM-88 and mount it along with my Polk tweeters pretty easy. Id cut the trim panel and wrap it with grill cloth so you wouldnt even see the drivers.

Im going to look into building a small box for something like a MM 8 to go in the front. I got the idea from a feature in CA&E years ago where a guy built a small sealed box for a slim model 8" sub and put it in the footwell of the passenger side front seat then built a trim panel with the same color carpet as the floor and you couldnt see it. If I have enough room there I may be able to pull it off and if I can, Ill be set. Id have it playing from 20-100 Hz and use my SR 5's in the doors to handle 100-500.

exalted512

Congrats! Have you thought about a SLS6 instead? Smaller imprint, not sure about the frequency response down to 20Hz, but I havent heard the mm 8 at 20 hz either.

You might even have room completely underneath the dash.
-Cody

MacLeod

Well I dont necessarily need 20 Hz. The MECA disc has one track with a slight 25 Hz rumble but nobody really uses it for sub bass judging cause its exaggerated. I think a single 8 up front like that could get the job done.

I'm not even sure yet if I've got enough room in the footwell yet. I'll have to get under there and do some measuring.

exalted512

That's where a SLS6 might come in handy, smaller speaker, smaller enclosure.
-Cody

Jstas

Wait, this is in the Edge?

Check way up in front of the center console. My '07 MKX (Edge in Lincoln drag) has a space up there. If you get creative, you could probably fit a small sealed box for an 8" sub up there. The Polk MM 8" looks like it could fit the bill with it's small size. Only digs down to 26 Hz but if you build the box on the small side and pack it with polyfil, you could dig deep enough. Especially if you throw all 250 watts at it.

You're gonna need to go sealed though. An 8 won't move enough air in a ported box to be able to tune to that low of a frequency without building the box HUGE to be able to fit the tube length you would need for the port. The only 8" sub I've ever seen dig that low with a small foot print was a Rat Shack jobby that was band pass and it had a port hole large enough that you could drop a Big Gulp in it.

Besides, ported with such a small sub for such a tight space will really truncate your frequency response. You'll get a big fat hump right around the resonance and sharp drop off both above and below the resonance. It won't blend well and it'll probably be have like a midget is stuck in your glove box and kicking to get out.

I'll look tomorrow when it isn't so dark out but I'm pretty sure there is enough space to hide a sub there. You'll have to take the center console and probably part of the dash to get there but hey, it's worth it if it means the difference between a 1st place score and a 2nd place score. Plus it's centralized so the programming info above the 80 Hz range won't skew the sound stage. That is if you are pushing it to the 100 Hz you mentioned above.

arun1963

Jstas wrote: »

You recalled incorrectly.

Yes apparently so.

MacLeod

Thanks John, I hadn't looked there. This is in a '10 Edge so it should be pretty similar to your ride.

I've got an old MTX 8 that I stuck in a .33 box years ago so I'm gonna toss it in the footwell and see how it sounds. I'm not sure if a single 8 will have enough output so this will be a good test.

40-63 Hz is the area I'm most concerned with as that's where all the punch is. Good slammin', up front midbass and kick drums will take care of my sub scores even if I can't hit that 25 Hz note.

I'm in my beer truck out on the route now so when I get back to the shop I'll check it out.

Man I'm fired up about this! I've been in Street class (stock speaker locations) since I started competing back in '05 so actually being able to do some creative installing for the first time is gonna be a blast.

Don't think those Peerless will work Cody. What I'm wanting is a single driver that will work as my sub. One of those 6's wouldnt work for that. My "plan" is for the8 to go from 20-100, my 5250 mids would pull from 100-500 which is where the Morels would take over.

exalted512

Do you think you could pull the 5250 mids down to 80Hz? I think anything over 75-80Hz starts getting in the realm of where you need stereo.
-Cody

Jstas

Well, with the under-dash mounting location, you can get the same effect as corner loading in a house. It's a tighter area to pressurize and you can artificially boost your output because of that.

I think a quality 8 will give you plenty of output. My first install in my Ranger used a pair of Kenwood W3000's and they were maybe mid-range at best at the time. I was running maybe 120 watts each through them in ported boxes and was able to ding a meter at around 118 dB in not the best box I ever built. For what it was, that was more than enough output for an SQ competition. Hell, it was good enough for a top 5 finish in it's class at the DB Drags back in '96 as well.

If you went with a DVC 8, you could run twice as much power in the same enclosure and get a good bit of output. However, I think with the pressurizing of the small area under the dash, you'll get your output. You should focus more on quality and if you put a decent sub with some power behind it, I think you'll do alright. Test it out with the MTX 8 and see how it goes but I don't think I would stick with it. There are much better 8's out there than an old MTX. Polk, Image Dynamics, JL Audio...there's a bunch of sub companies out there with very good offerings in the 8 inch size range. Tang Band has a decent 6 inch sub that digs down to 30 Hz with it's aluminum cone. Morel and Scan Speak also have decent offerings in an 8" size as well. You have options and getting creative can net you some real benefits.

arun1963

How about if you run a pair of 8" as sub/mid bass. You can then control the output of the 8" via box size, power and tuning.

MacLeod

Dont really need stereo for 100 Hz. Anything much above that and you'd be right.

Can't do a pair of 8's. Don't have the room.

MacLeod

So the footwell subwoofer box aint gonna work. There just isnt enough room. Damn heater hangs down a bunch and there just isnt the room to build any kind of box without taking up half the legroom.

But thats ok. My pair of MM1040's are more than enough for sub duties so Ill just have to do some mods on the door panel to mount the SR6500's. Those will be awesome midbass speakers and will easily handle up to 500 Hz.

In the doors of all 3 cars theyve been in, Ive had to cut 200-430 Hz quite a bit and I cant get 500 up enough without boosting 6 db which I dont wanna do so this looks to be perfect on paper at least.

So I think thats gonna be it. MM1040's x2 for sub duties. SR6500 mids in the doors handling 40-500 Hz. Probably a Morel 3" dome mid handling 500-around 5 KHz and then the SR tweeters handling tweeter duties. Hmmmm.....yeah that looks right.

MacLeod

HA! Good point.

Nah, I could pull all that out but then Id have to go up yet another class to ModEx and I aint ready for that. Thats the class with some MAJOR custom installs. Im talking 8" midbass drivers in sealed boxes IN THE DOORS! Way beyond my feeble skill.

MECA classifies their competitors by the install. I was in Street cause I was using stock speaker locations. Since this Edge has pure crap for stock provisions, I have to get creative and Modified is where my skill level is at right now.

Jstas

MacLeod wrote: »

So the footwell subwoofer box aint gonna work. There just isnt enough room. Damn heater hangs down a bunch and there just isnt the room to build any kind of box without taking up half the legroom.

I checked that center console. It's pretty clear on the driver's side but there is a chunk of duct work that goes down the passenger side to the vents coming out of the rear of the center console. If that ductwork wasn't there, it'd be a fairly easy fit for a shallow 8 inch. It'd take some effort to get it in there but I could do it. However, I'm reluctant to pull the ductwork apart because it's got a bunch of molded bends that would require cutting and it's not worth it for me.

arun1963

MacLeod wrote: »

Ill just have to do some mods on the door panel to mount the SR6500's. Those will be awesome midbass speakers and will easily handle up to 500 Hz.

In the doors of all 3 cars theyve been in, Ive had to cut 200-430 Hz quite a bit and I cant get 500 up enough without boosting 6 db which I dont wanna do so this looks to be perfect on paper at least.

If I look at the 200-3khz range on the eq, 500 looks like a skyscraper amidst low rise condos. Specially for the far side mid.

MacLeod wrote: »

So I think thats gonna be it. MM1040's x2 for sub duties. SR6500 mids in the doors handling 40-500 Hz. Probably a Morel 3" dome mid handling 500-around 5 KHz and then the SR tweeters handling tweeter duties. Hmmmm.....yeah that looks right.

Maybe one of the advantages of a 3way with the mid mounted higher, is to allow the tweeter to just fill in the top end of the upper mids and focus on extension beyond 10khz to add air / tonality. You may not need the tweets to dig low to pull up the stage or supplement the imaging cues. That would be achieved by the mids mounted higher. Just thinking aloud....

arun1963

DSkip wrote: »

It also has a pass-through type cubby underneath the center console. Its big enough for a very large purse to fit there with no issues. Easily able to install a sub there without much modding. She would never let me do that to her beloved though.

You deserve a special bravery award for even venturing to think about alternate usage for the 'purse space'.

MacLeod

Jstas wrote: »

I checked that center console. It's pretty clear on the driver's side but there is a chunk of duct work that goes down the passenger side to the vents coming out of the rear of the center console. If that ductwork wasn't there, it'd be a fairly easy fit for a shallow 8 inch. It'd take some effort to get it in there but I could do it. However, I'm reluctant to pull the ductwork apart because it's got a bunch of molded bends that would require cutting and it's not worth it for me.

Same with mine. Oh well, it was a good idea but if I can beef up the doors enough, those SR 6's will be plenty potent down to 40 Hz.

Jstas

Well, if you didn't use that cavernous center console bucket under the arm rest, there's lots of room there to fit a slim-line sub or even a little 6.5" sub.

MacLeod

Ain't that the truth! I have to pull over when I need something out of there cause I can't even reach the bottom!

I dont want to do a whole lot of hacking though cause I still dont like this car and will be trading it in a year or 2 so I want to be able to return it to stock fairly easy.

MacLeod

Nope. Had 2 Fords over the years and both were crap. I get a healthy discount on Ford thru my work so I thought "hell those last Fords were years ago. Surely they're better now". Nope. I'm going back to Honda and never looking back.

And no, I'm not gonna have to spend 3 days rebuilding crap when I trade this heap in. Everything I do to it will be something I can change back in a few hours.

arun1963

MacLeod wrote: »

And no, I'm not gonna have to spend 3 days rebuilding crap when I trade this heap in. Everything I do to it will be something I can change back in a few hours.

That leaves the door open, on doing minor mods. Hence the possibility of only having to cover a couple of 3/8" drill holes for pvc caps, in case the concept doesn't work out.....