To fill our not to fill. That is the question.

Systems

Hey there,

In the next week, I'll be installing a Pioneer Premier DEH-P940 HU, Focal Polyglass V2 components, and Kicker 3 channel amp (KX550.3), and a JL sub in my 1999 Acura Integra.

It seems that different people have different opinions about whether to use the rear speakers to begin with. I have 3 options:

1) Use the Acura factory stock speakers in the rear for fill

2) Disconnect the rear speakers and use only the sub
and the front components

3) Replace the rear speakers.

So two questions: 1) What do you guys think of these options, and 2) if you're going with #3, any recommendations re: what brand or model to put in the rear (6.5s)

Thanks,

Jeremy

seachange44

It sounds like you would be powering the rears with the head unit and the fronts with the amp-I've experimented with this setup before and the sound did not match at all, it was really irritating. It also depends on if your car is a two door or a four door-if it's a two door, you might want to disconnect the rear speakers but try it first. If you want to add rear speakers you should get a five channel amp instead of a three-make sure the rear speakers match, in other words, the same series focal but coaxials. I really think you might be okay without the rear speakers since you're using a sub, but trust me, if you use the stock speakers powered by the head unit, the sound will not match.:)

C-Man

I agree with seachange. You'd have to play around with the setup a little. I'd first disconnect the rear speakers all together and try just using the comps up front and the subs. If it doesn't sound right to you...you can probably test it out by sticking the stock speakers back in the rear, but it is usually a good idea to just replace the rears with coax's. The stocks in that car are terrible, (I have the same car) and even with that small amount of deck power they will distort like mad if you try to turn up the volume. I don't agree that you should necessarily get matching coax's to the comps up front. I have a pair of Crystal comps in the front and a pair of Infinity References in the back and it sounds very good for a fill. All my speakers are amped however, and I think if you were to buy a set of coax's for the back, you would definately want to get a 5 channel, as you'll quickly notice the difference between the fronts with true amp power and the rears with the **** deck power.

Thom

The only time we run rear fill is if we're doing a 5.1 setup. Otherwise, what's the point to having speakers behind you? Unless you just want it louder.

Jstas

Originally posted by Thom
The only time we run rear fill is if we're doing a 5.1 setup. Otherwise, what's the point to having speakers behind you? Unless you just want it louder.

Because not all of us have large drivers in the front positions. If my girlfriend's car didn't have the 6x8 inch Pioneer 3 ways in the back deck of her Taurus, the 4.5 inch Clarion drivers up front would not be adequate and there would be a large disparity in rfrequency response with a much less than desirerable result of having little to no mid-range.

On top of that, rear speakers can help pull a sound stage back to where it needs to be. They add richness and depth and in many GM's and Dodges, where the rear speakers are larger than the front speakers, they provide mid-range and low end oomph. That's important because mid-range and bass get cancelled out easily by white noise like wind noise and the hum of the tires on the road. Having strong mid range and bass will overcome that noise cancelling white noise and allow you to hear all of the information contained in the track. It also means that you won't have to stop the car from moving to fully appreciate your several thousand dollar install and that install also won't sound like a Radio Shack speacil transistor clock radio.

I've tried doing it without any rear speakers and there it just doesn't sound right. It doesn't sound natural. It's way too easy to localize bass and since 9 times out of 10, the main drivers in the front are located in the kick panels or doors, air pressure in the non-weather tight doors and behind the kick-panels affects sound and bass response. Granted, a trunk or rear cab corner is not exactly weather tight in most cases either but there is a large enough space or enough of a seperation from outside forces like wind, that pressure changes are minimal. You get a much more accurate response and it's more forceful and robust.

Systems

Originally posted by Jstas
Because not all of us have large drivers in the front positions.

ok but what constitutes large drivers in the front? Do the Focal Polyglass 165V2s cut-it? That is, if I'm installing these in the front of my Acura Integra, do you think I'll need rear fill?

Also, if I do get some mid-range drivers for the back, I don't think I'd match them with Focal, as I won't have that kind of money... Would a basic Pioneer suffice? If not, what would you all recommend?

Jeremy

Jstas

A large driver would be a 6.5 inch driver or a 6x8 inch or a 6x9 inch. But not all cars use drivers that size in the stock locations which is what most people go for.

But you are taking my statement out of context. It was an answer to Thom's question and not directly transferrable to your question. My answer was related to imaging and frequency curves.

As for whether the Focal speakers you either have or plan "cut it", that's up to you. Maybe they aren't the right sound for you, I don't know. You have to answer that.

What I can tell you to do is to look at specs. Look at the frequency response and sensitivity ratings and such of the speakers. Notice how, when the size of the speaker decreses, the frequency response range low point goes up. A 4 inch speaker or even a 5.25 inch speaker will not perform anywhere near as well as a 6.5 or 6.75 inch speaker in the lower end of the frequency range. A 6x8 speaker has roughly the same conical area as a 7 inch round speaker and a 6x9 inch speaker has roughly the same the same conical area as a 7.5 inch round speaker. So you will notice similar performance between a 6x8 and a 6.5 inch speaker but a 6x9 inch speaker will likely outperform all other speakers save for something like an 8 inch mid-bass driver or a subwoofer.

As for your rear fill, the Polyglas line is conserably more robust than standard Pioneer speakers. While Pioneer is far from junk, Focal is as far away from Pioneer as Pioneer is as far away from junk. I don't know what kind of speakers you need for the rear but you have two choices. Number one, step down a notch from the Focal Polyglas and match all your speakers well or number two, get Pioneers and deal with it. Not to say that it will be a bad thing or that you even need the rear speakers. You may like the sound of just the front better. It's up to you. But obviously, the quality of the speaker and performance specs are not your driving force but rather, your budget is. So, you have to get rear speakers that give you the most bang for the price point that fits your budget all the while keeping in mind that while they won't be voiced matched to the Focals, they do need to be able to reinforce the sound of the Focals and be relativly well matched to compliment your front sound stage. Otherwise, your front to rear balance will be skewed to which ever set of speakers is squawking louder and it can even mess up your left to right stereo imaging. So, depending on the size of the rear speakers, make sure that they can reach a wider frequency range than the Focals to help reinforce the bottom end and blend the low end info from the subs well. Also make sure that the sensitivity rating of the rear speakers does not exceed the sensitivity rating of the Focals otherwise, the rear speakers will play louder than the Focals for a given power level.

You may want to go with something along the lines of even just a mid-range/mid-bass 6.5 inch driver like Image Dynamics CX62/4 or even Kicker Resolution R6C speakers. I know teh Kickers are inexpensive, (~140 dollars) and they will reach down to 40 Hz with a sensitivity of only 87. That would be a perfect match for your Focals which only reach down to 60 Hz and have a 93 dB sensitivity. They will handle more power than the Focals too. With that, you wouldn't need a huge subwoofer setup to get hard driving bass from your stereo. Unless of course you want enough loud bass to make your ears bleed.

So I think I'll recommend the Kicker Resolution R6C's. I think they would be a perfect match for your front speakers. Cross them over at about 4K to 3K and go to town!


No,w if only Polk would make some mid-range/mid-bass drivers without tweeters and crossovers! HINT HINT!

Thom

Originally posted by Jstas


No,w if only Polk would make some mid-range/mid-bass drivers without tweeters and crossovers! HINT HINT!

Yeah, we'd sell 4 pairs a year!

Thom

Originally posted by Jstas
On top of that, rear speakers can help pull a sound stage back to where it needs to be. They add richness and depth and in many GM's and Dodges, where the rear speakers are larger than the front speakers, they provide mid-range and low end oomph. That's important because mid-range and bass get cancelled out easily by white noise like wind noise and the hum of the tires on the road. Having strong mid range and bass will overcome that noise cancelling white noise and allow you to hear all of the information contained in the track. It also means that you won't have to stop the car from moving to fully appreciate your several thousand dollar install and that install also won't sound like a Radio Shack speacil transistor clock radio.

Since when do you get to sit on stage or turn your back to the performance? I've never heard a complaint about a car's soundstage being too deep. Rear fill is just going to drag it towards you or behind you. Unless they're barely playing and they're just used for ambience (mid only, not tweets?). There have been guys who've used midbass drivers behind them and done it well but it's a lot more work to keep the stage in front of you.

If somebody's got a several thousand dollar install they should be able to afford kick panels or custom door work in order to fit a better driver.

sntnsupermen131

i personally think you need rear speakers
that deck will give you 22 watts of pretty damn good power for a deck...i have the same one...i know
but if you just run speakers(aftermarket, not stock) off the deck it will sound better(personal opinion)
sounds like you have a nice setup...nice head unit...damn good components...just not a big fan of JL
i would finish it off with some 6 1/2" coaxials
-Cody

Jstas

Originally posted by Thom
Since when do you get to sit on stage or turn your back to the performance? I've never heard a complaint about a car's soundstage being too deep. Rear fill is just going to drag it towards you or behind you. Unless they're barely playing and they're just used for ambience (mid only, not tweets?). There have been guys who've used midbass drivers behind them and done it well but it's a lot more work to keep the stage in front of you.

If somebody's got a several thousand dollar install they should be able to afford kick panels or custom door work in order to fit a better driver.

Hmm, ever installed components in a minivan? How about a Jeep Cherokee? Hell, even something like a Nissan 300ZX or damn near any 80's pickup truck has speakers that fire towards the windshield. That's great, if you sat right infront of the windshield but, most people don't. Only bus drivers do and I don't have a bus in my driveway.

Rear speakers can draw a sound stage out of the windsheild where detailed information of a musical track can get lost and vocals can get muddied. Rear speakers help redefine that information and can enhance low end response overall. It can also draw the sound stage back to where it is supposed to be, right infront of your face.

Thom, there are lots of reasons, both technical and practical, for having rear speakers. Whether you want to admit it or not. So, kindly lose the attitude bro'.

PoweredByDodge

I agree with thom's comment about "ya we'd sell 4 pairs a year"...

it sucks, but its true... not many people really care or really do that in depth of an install... i mean think about it, specifically you john... you did a nice install in your truck, and you're not gonna re-do it till it all drops dead on you... while you may have wanted midbass drivers for your install (hypothetically, regardless of whether you used them in your truck or not) and maybe i would and maybe 2 or 3 other people i've met in my life would... we're not the type of people who re-do the car every year, and as such, its not worth it for a company who just finally brought back 8" subs to put out midbass drivers alone.

instead, just hit them up for warranty repair parts -- i'm sure the polk customer service desk would sell you momo component 6.5" midbass drivers for a reasonable price --- as they do sell stuff for replacement of out of warranty damaged stuff.

as far as the rear fill thing goes tho -- i think we're all getting lost in teh mix here...

for a NON-"snazzy" system that's just a basic factory replacement with much better gear, 99% of the time you're gonna want rears. the quality of speakers used isn't high enough to let the fronts stand alone and often times there is concern for rear passengers.

for a car like our caddy, there was no way on earth i was cutting up anything in there... so 3.5" in front was what i was damned to -- and the EX III's in back really do just what john's saying -- they pull the music out of the front and draw it back to just around my ears... which considering its got 3.5's in front, it really sounds nice.

then there's something like my truck...i cross my front over at 100 -- and the rears do nothing but hit the 70 to 100 range for me as well as reinforce the music a bit more. -- i only run about 50 watts tops to them... more like 30 a side or so i'd say... whereas the fronts are flirting with 200 a side.

if u took those rears out (they're 6x9's), i'd be very displeased with it... i duno why, just would... seems hollow to me then.

however i think if someone has two pair of good components up front, or one pair and then 8" midbass drivers as well then hey -- go to town with just fronts.

maybe i just suck and dont have the experience-- i just cant seem to get a car to sound how i want it to with just fronts... i'll readily admit that.

i do think though that midbass drivers are the best way to go for rears instead of a true coaxial -- as long as you've got the front stage to support it and the subwoofers to finish it off... if you are trying to do it in a pinch, you can use coaxials that have built in crossovers and just snip the wire going to the tweeter pod.

MTXMAN

you have to take into consideration the individuals preferance in sound... personally i would rather sit in the middle of a studio recording than in front of a stage... I like to hear music surrounding me, not just coming at me... btw i'm going to be running 2 comp sets in my car (front and rear) any suggestions for tweet positions?? i'm wondering wether or not having them in the four corners would sound right, i've heard opinions both ways...

C-Man

Put the tweets in your headrests! LOL.

Thom

Originally posted by Jstas
Hmm, ever installed components in a minivan? How about a Jeep Cherokee? Hell, even something like a Nissan 300ZX or damn near any 80's pickup truck has speakers that fire towards the windshield. That's great, if you sat right infront of the windshield but, most people don't. Only bus drivers do and I don't have a bus in my driveway.

When we get my wife a minivan we'll keep rear speakers in for the back seat passengers to enjoy.

Rear speakers can draw a sound stage out of the windsheild where detailed information of a musical track can get lost and vocals can get muddied. Rear speakers help redefine that information and can enhance low end response overall. It can also draw the sound stage back to where it is supposed to be, right infront of your face.

Where it's supposed to be, or where you prefer it? Everybody's going for something different, but if you ever compete and your stage is between you and the dash instead of up on the dash or out on the hood (if you're lucky) you're not going to get good scores for your sound stage depth. If you prefer it there nobody's telling you to change it.

When listening to a pair of home speakers do you sit between them so you're in the "middle of the sound" or are the speakers across the room from your listening position (every setup I've ever seen)?

Thom, there are lots of reasons, both technical and practical, for having rear speakers. Whether you want to admit it or not. So, kindly lose the attitude bro'.

If you like rear speakers, fine, I'm just giving my opinion. I believe it's as valid as yours. Maybe you're reading something into this, but this is just another discussion- no attitude. Maybe I should use more smiley faces...

PoweredByDodge

thom, you're buyin u're wife a minivan????

why?

I do think you're doing a grave injustice there... a small SUV, sure, even a hatchback, but NOT A MINIVAN -- say it aint so!

the only way a minivan would be cool is with about 20 10" subs in the back and the amps bolted to the roof (even tho its bad for them).

Thom

Who cares about cool, it's functional. We need something with a third row seat. She still drives the Civic hatch everywhere and that's a pain with two kids in car seats. Plus we've got three nieces that live nearby and she watches them regularly. The only SUVs with third row seats are big ones, and they still don't have the space a minivan does. Plus, I hate SUVs. If I want a truck- like vehicle I'll buy a truck.

PoweredByDodge

ya i'd be frigtened to see a truck with not only a second row but a 3rd row of seats -- and six doors... ford would probably have the brainfart idea to build something like that... "the Super Duper Cab".

fer what its worth -- the honda odyssey is pretty nice, as well as the chevy venture / pontiac montana -- however i found the carvan / town and country and the winstar to be wayyyy too off balance for reasonable driving taste.... felt like a brick on wheels... that it was gonna tip over on sharp turns and really just seemed doggish. the honda and chevy however had a little zip to em.

Jstas

Dude, you sure it wasn't your ears making you feel off balance?

The Honda is ok if you like styling. A guy at work here got one and I find it bland and to get it loaded with the useful stuff, you have to jack up the price too much.

The Windstar was always a nice van eventhough it had soem quality issues. It does feel top heavy but nowhere near unstable. Doesn't matter though, it's getting replaced next year.

The Chevy Venture was the biggest pig on rollerskates that I ever drove! I had one for a rental in Waldorf, Maryland and that thing was downright scary to drive! The damn thing wouldn't even roll down the highway straight. It wandered all over the lane and constantly required course correction. It had excessive body roll and the brakes couldn't stop a schwinn let alone a minivan! All that and there was only 282 miles on the odometer. Big pile of crap. I'll never own one.

The Caravan/Town and Country though, that was a smooth ride! They felt heavy but you know what? They ARE heavy. Very comfy ride and seats. Lotsa power and eventhough it too felt top heavy, it cornered pretty well. I'd say it's about the only thing Dodge has done right. Such a shame that Mercedes is considering axing them out of the line up.

Thom

I'd get an Odyssey if we could afford one, but there's no chance. It'll probably be an MPV. My Protege has over 150,000 on it and it still runs fine. I've hardly had to fix anything over the past 7.5 years so I'm very happy with Mazda. Plus the Protege's we've worked on seem well put together for cheap cars.

PoweredByDodge

i've had the displeasure of taking a caravan, a windstar, and a venture all out on 13-16 hour road trips, all were rentals, but i also got to dick around with more c-van's and windstars than i'd care to ever recall... the odyssey i just got to tool around the block with.

the c-van felt heavy like you said, and while acceleration and braking weren't bad, it was just like i was sitting on a barstool for a seat and steering was grossly loose initially and then i ended up always overcompensating and almost ending up dead.

the windstar had i think one gear... ya ... one gear.... lol... ran much higher on the tac than you'd expect at highway speeds... 70 mph was like forced childbirth for it. i ended up manually shifting between one and two as per my taste, cuz the automatic was just not working right. throw it into "D" and it the tac shot up and the car slowed down... probably was downshifting for some unknown reason.

the venture may be **** under the hood -- i dont know -- may be **** on breaking, but i found it to be average there... what i liked was an overall nicer ride, better handling, less top heavy ness -- kinda felt a little like a scaled down astro-van.

then again my nighmare with teh winstar could be very much akin to your nightmare with the venture -- rental cars suck in general.

---- oh and i called my mom's dr. today, he's like "get some rest, drink a lotta fluids, take an anti-biotic and call me back in 10 days if its not gone" -- whole lotta help he is... grrrr...

on a side note - i'm glad to see the GC-van go if it does... the dash lights cycle faster than a 400 speed camera shutter, which meant that everytime i tried to snap a photo of a mileage on odometer, it only gave me two of the six digits. and then u.s. customs was on the phone yelling at me telling me they're gonna get the frickin border patrol to come shoot me and rip my juevos off.