Backyard waterfall questions

Ron-P

Has anyone built one, worked on one, or have one?

The reason I ask. I want to build one for my backyard, a small one, in the back corner of my planter. The block walls are 7' high and the planter is 5' deep. I figure that's plenty of space. I have tons of big 18" or so size rocks all over my back and front yards to use. I just need a pump and pond...I'm guessing.

I'd like the waterfall to be 7' high, or close to that. Nothing fancy, or expensive. I figure I can buy the pump and pond anywhere just not sure if I need to match anything up as far as size and gph.

Jstas

Check your local ordinances. Water features are often considered habitat more than decorations and there are also often strict laws governing it because of that.

schwarcw

I have not built one of these, my yard is not fenced in and I would have many unwelcome guests.

There is a minimum ratio of the pump rate (gpm) to the pond volume. But, I don't know what that is. Make sure you do some tasteful lighting. Blend in the plants, rocks, etc. Use a variety of small and larger plants blending texture and color. You'll need a ready source of makeup water due to evaporation, especially in your climate..

Enjoy and post some pics! You always do well on these projects.

newrival

schwarcw wrote: »

There is a minimum ratio of the pump rate (gpm) to the pond volume.

This is true depending on your goals.

Ron, have a look at this website: www.kanebros.com

I'd be happy to offer any advice you need on this subject. Maybe we can talk on the phone and see what your goals are. Ordinances are not typically a problem with waterfalls. The ponds are where the trouble can be based on your municipality. there are a million and one questions that can drive the direction of your project. Right off the bat, the 7' height seems like an issue due to structural issues as well as aesthetically and hydro-dynamically speaking. Anyways, I'd be happy to guide you through the planning process.

BeRad

I remember my dad building one as a kid. It went from a larger pond at the top, flowing down into 2 small ones (about 12" deep and 30" round) and then into a large one at the bottom (6' diameter, 3' deep). Each were dug into a natural hill and lined with rubber. Then add rocks. Lots of rocks! He got some nice shale pieces to set up like steps for the water to flow over. I think he used a normal sump pump (Looked like a standard submersible sump pump anyways, same size/shape) and ran the output hose up under the rocks.

The biggest issue we had was algae buildup. It was a lot of work to keep these things clean and ever couple years we had to drain them and clean off the rocks and rubber. I'm sure there are products/fish that can help with this. I'd guess that high water flow would help cut down on algae buildup too.

Try to picture exactly how you want the water to flow down: big drop (louder) or rock-to-rock trickle over a more gradual slope. It can be tricky to direct the water just right.

Good luck and have fun! I'm hoping to get some sort of pond system in my backyard later this summer! (I wish I had the space for 7' like you!)

newrival

Liners are a great way to go (EPDM). Just remember to make sure that it is inert - won't release chemicals - and some of them will say "pond safe" or something similar. rocks are a good idea, but not on the bottom. 1) it makes it harder to clean, which in turn can raise the organic load of the water, which in turn promotes algae. 2) it creates habitat for anaerobic bacteria which is the bad kind in a pond type ecology. The best way to fight algae is design: site the pond in a shady spot or plant a tree to create one, create shelves for marginal plantings that will absorb the organic load so the algae starves, and the nice thing about florida? you can grow tilapia which will help keep it clean including from snails (and subsequently swimmers itch). Unfortunately its too cold to grow them here in chicago.

Great point about the sound considerations, Brad. the deeper the water in which the cascade falls into, the deeper the sound. The more water and the faster moving, the louder it is. Water fallig on rock makes a patter noise and can be fatiguing if not blended with deeper rushing noises.

The pump is a very important consideration and its best to look at flow/head pressure curves to select th best pump given the flow needed to inundate your planned weir width.

tonyb

Firestone epdm 45 mil or 60 mil is the way to go. Don't forget the underlayment too. 7 feet is pretty high and depending on the filtration system and how far away it is from the pump, you'll need lots of head to push water that high at a speed that will make the sound you like. Filters can be made by yourself instead of paying big coin. Lots of internet forums for pond building,check them out and get a budget together. You have to plan this out from building,to filtration, location,and if you want fish in it or not. Most states have codes and alot of them limit the pond to 2 feet deep with out a fenced yard.
Take your time, do your homework, mistakes can be costly. Have a pond myself,thinking of re-doing it this spring.

newrival

very well said, Tony. For 18" stone, Firestone pondguard at 45mil is more than sufficient (and is the best brand of epdm liner).

I see them every day that meet an early demise due to poor planning (even by other landscape architects).

tony, you mention diy filtration, what kind do you use? is it a protein skimmer, pressurized biologic, something else? one of my professional concentrations is eco/biologic solutions to environmental issues, including water/ponds, so im always curious

tonyb

Believe me when I tell you, I spent the better part of a year digging up info on filtration for ponds. Tried a couple expensive ones that did ok but not satisfied in the end. I use a small DIY filter fashioned after the Skippy filter, google it. Best simple design out there. When it comes to filtration, it's more so a balance needed in the pond, fish waste contributes, sunlight, plants both floating and submerged help out tremendously and bring air to the water for the fish. A pond is a closed ecosystem, and doing small incremental water changes helps too. Most people under filter their pond, put too many fish in a small pond, or have poor circulation due to design, not enough plants either. The most common things people complain about is green water,algae, or tea colored water which all can be adressed but it takes a balance.
Rocks on the bottom of a pond also look good when installed, but by the second season,all the sludge, leaves and such decompose and the pump can't suck it out from under and inbetween the rocks. Then you just created the best environment for algae to grow. I could go on and on, but I will also tell you there is alot of bad info out there too from people wanting to sell you stuff. Ever see or hear of natural swimming pools ? Same basic concept of balance and natural filtration, no salts, no chlorine, and crystal clear water.

tonyb

Ron,
Cali is a great place for a pond, but it can get expensive. Read up and see what you can do yourself and what materials you can get cheaply. Do not be fooled to believe everything has to be bought from a pond store as they are the most expensive. Also do not place the pond in the low point of the yard. Place it somewhere that has a nice mix of sun and shade.

newrival

tonyb wrote: »

Ever see or hear of natural swimming pools ? Same basic concept of balance and natural filtration, no salts, no chlorine, and crystal clear water.

Just designed one for the greenest home in america in Portola Valley, CA :biggrin:

Also did one in Naperville, IL for a client that wanted to swim with his fish. The ecosystem handles the organic load of the fish and the swimmers, and you could read a newspaper on the bottom of the pool 10' down. no chemicals. at all.

But yeah this is a big part of what I do for a living. It's nice to hear people champion the holistic approach through ecology. I've been banging the drum forever, bt it's tough to get people on board here in the midwest. Elsewhere in the country, people are really responsive to that approach.

Kinda fun talking shop in the forum finally something that i actually know a lot about. haha

Ron-P

Thanks for all the info guys!

Here's what I've come up with. A 40 gallon pre-formed pond, a waterfall pump from Home Depot and some tube. All-in-all. it'll be about $175+. Really inexpensive. The pump I'm looking at can do a 12' lift so at 7' I should get about 210 gph which is perfect.

I am not stocking this thing with any kind of life, it's just going to be a waterfall for looks and sound, nothing more. Nice thing about these pumps, they can pass large objects so no need for even a filter (I will most likely use one though).

I plan to build a rough set-up and then as I collect rocks and boulders, I'll build it up over time. It will also be kinda hidden behind all the tropical foliage so I'm not going for anything super fancy.

tonyb

Keep in mind Ron, that 7 feet vertical isn't the end of it. You have to add the footage horizontal too. I think the formula is every 1,5 feet horizontal, is equal to 1 foot of head. So if you have 5 feet of hose before you start going up, thats an extra 3 feet of head pressure. If I remember correctly. Also, no fish means you can just treat it basically like a pool and add chemicals to keep it clean from the big bad green.

tonyb

newrival wrote: »

Just designed one for the greenest home in america in Portola Valley, CA :biggrin:

Also did one in Naperville, IL for a client that wanted to swim with his fish. The ecosystem handles the organic load of the fish and the swimmers, and you could read a newspaper on the bottom of the pool 10' down. no chemicals. at all.

But yeah this is a big part of what I do for a living. It's nice to hear people champion the holistic approach through ecology. I've been banging the drum forever, bt it's tough to get people on board here in the midwest. Elsewhere in the country, people are really responsive to that approach.

Kinda fun talking shop in the forum finally something that i actually know a lot about. haha

Man I could talk all day on this subject bro. I do have a question since your into nature swimming pools. I get the concept in warmer climates where the plant life doesn't die off, but how do you compensate for colder climates so when it comes time to open the natural swimming pool in June, it's not full of the green monsters ? Since the plants are a big portion in the filtration process, just like ponds, do you just close it down for the winter like a pond ?

Speaking of Naperville, did you ever get a chance to look at their public swimming pool which is a natural one built in an old quary ? Nice area down by the river walk.

newrival

Up in our area it's treated much like nature would you leave the plants in until their rate of respiration is practically null (usually november), then you go in and cut the plants down to their crown. Leave the roots established in the planting media. Then you shut everything down like you would a pond. With thoughtful design, you can keep the pond running into january then shut it down until march. The key to natural pools is to get them running as soon as possible. keep aeration going though the winter to eliminate horizon stratification. Start the bio filters up as soon as possible to get the bacteria colonies aerated. Water chemistry is very imporant too, and there are methods to buffer the huge swing of water pH that typically happens throughout the normal day of a pond utilizing a liner due to plant respiration and transpiration and the lack of mineral interaction with the ground. And like you mentioned a water change and some spring cleaning is almost always necessary. but once your bacteria levels are good, and the system is balanced you're in for a trouble free summer.

newrival

I've never made it over there. I'm really interested though. I used to swim in quarries in Dayton, IL as a kid and those actually helped me develop environmental strategies to a couple natural pools.

Anyways, I'd love to hear where the one in Naperville is.

Ron-P

tonyb wrote: »

Keep in mind Ron, that 7 feet vertical isn't the end of it. You have to add the footage horizontal too. I think the formula is every 1,5 feet horizontal, is equal to 1 foot of head. So if you have 5 feet of hose before you start going up, thats an extra 3 feet of head pressure. If I remember correctly. Also, no fish means you can just treat it basically like a pool and add chemicals to keep it clean from the big bad green.

Oh, good tip, thanks. I didn't even think of that. My waterfall will start out small, most likely only 3' in height. I'm going to build this thing with only real rocks and boulders. I only have so many I can use in my yard right now. Over time, as I go out to the desert and pick up more rocks I'll start to build it higher and bigger.

The good news, my neighbor has a lot of dirt in his back yard due to a current room addition so I can take as much as I want. This will help in the building of the waterfall.

wz2p7j

Be mindful of codes. For example, here in MI if a pond is of a certain size and depth, it will be considered a pool (as in swimming pool) and will require a fence around it!

Chris

newrival

Ron-P wrote: »

Oh, good tip, thanks. I didn't even think of that. My waterfall will start out small, most likely only 3' in height. I'm going to build this thing with only real rocks and boulders. I only have so many I can use in my yard right now. Over time, as I go out to the desert and pick up more rocks I'll start to build it higher and bigger.

The good news, my neighbor has a lot of dirt in his back yard due to a current room addition so I can take as much as I want. This will help in the building of the waterfall.

stacking stone on fill (especially 7' of it) will most certainly end in headache for you if you don't do the proper foundation/weir wall work. Even 3' over time can present a problem if improperly shored up.

disneyjoe7

If this is to run 24hrs a day, I'm concern about the height of the water fall, and pump size needed to get to run nicely. The power to run could jack up electric bill, just something to consider.

newrival

tonyb wrote: »

Keep in mind Ron, that 7 feet vertical isn't the end of it. You have to add the footage horizontal too. I think the formula is every 1,5 feet horizontal, is equal to 1 foot of head. So if you have 5 feet of hose before you start going up, thats an extra 3 feet of head pressure. If I remember correctly. Also, no fish means you can just treat it basically like a pool and add chemicals to keep it clean from the big bad green.

this is a bit high. There is a very complicated formula to figure turbulance and friction of a pipe, but for a 3" dia. pvc pipe with a length of 100' you add 9.47' of head to your pump. this is with no fittings. It's higher for smaller dia. try to keep runs as simple as possible with as straight a run as possible. use 45's rather than 90's when possible.

wz2p7j

www.pondliner.com has a pretty helpful tech line.

Chris

gdb

I'd build this if I were you!:biggrin: It could dispense Margaritas when you're partying.

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newrival

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

If this is to run 24hrs a day, I'm concern about the height of the water fall, and pump size needed to get to run nicely. The power to run could jack up electric bill, just something to consider.

you'll definitely see the difference between electric bills, but it might not be as much as you think. There are ways to lessen the use. use a submersible pump that doesnt need priming and then put it on a timer and have it shut down from 10p to 6a. this alone could save you 30%. also you can use a variable rate pump that can save money, but theyre pricey. you're likely to spend $30-$80/month depending on pump and use.

tonyb

Ron,
It's not just a matter of stacking boulders and letting the water run down to the pond. You need a good foundation under the rocks, then you have to use a special foam inbetween the rocks, along with positioning just right otherwise you will lose water like crazy. If you eventually want to go higher than 3 feet, think about a bigger basin, the splash created at that height, will surely take up the whole 40 gal. basin. They also do make pondless waterfalls too that can be bought at stores or made yourself alot cheaper. I can't encourage you enough to read up on it, I would hate to see you fall into the same mistakes alot of people do.

tonyb

newrival wrote: »

this is a bit high. There is a very complicated formula to figure turbulance and friction of a pipe, but for a 3" dia. pvc pipe with a length of 100' you add 9.47' of head to your pump. this is with no fittings. It's higher for smaller dia. try to keep runs as simple as possible with as straight a run as possible. use 45's rather than 90's when possible.

Absolutely my good man, 45's, even 22's, the more of a straight shot for the water to flow means less friction, more head. Less fittings the better.
I have been into ponding for about 5 years now,made all the classic mistakes. Once you understand the basics of how nature keeps it's own waters clean, you can adjust to it. Think of a pond like a big fish tank. It can be a hassle to keep clean, or it can be relatively easy, but you know once things are out of balance in your fish tank, bad things start to happen. Same with water features outdoors where you have less of a controlled environment. Rain, wind, sun, leaves, animals that may come for a visit, birds.
Just tonight, I've been chasing an owl away from my pond who thinks it's his own buffet.
Many will tell you, once they put in a pond, they regret one thing. They didn't make it big enough. I'm guilty also. Started with a 300 gal. pond and now want to move up to 2000 gal pond. I have comets, japanese snails as big as a half dollar, frogs just show up out of nowhere, it's enjoyable. The birds come for a drink along with the chipmunks, bullfrogs will actually catch small finches that come too close. It's pretty cool. Believe it or not,a larger pond is easier to maintain than a small one. I throw in a heater that I got from farm and fleet and leave the pond running in the winter. The other cool thing about a pond is you can have one for game fish or even your own trout farm. Fresh fish for dinner ? I couldn't, because I name them all. Once you do that, game over.

Tour2ma

Ron,

I've seen some pretty cool ones on HGTV's yard crashers.

http://www.diynetwork.com/videos/top-10-water-features/50422.html

If you see one you like, you can dig for the tips...

Ron-P

Some very good info in this thread, thank you guys!

I'm buliding this thing much simpler. No big, intricate rock waterfalls. I am after the sound much more then the look. Many of you have seen pics of my backyard and know how dense the tropical foliage is getting. The water fall will be in a spot where most of it will not be seen, just heard.

I bought a 40 gallon preformed pond this morning. It's going in my back planter up against the back brick wall, or very close too it. Next will be to build a 5' to 7' riser up the back with staggered cinder blocks (grouted for stability). At the top will be a wide spout, about 12" or so. That's pretty much it.

I do plan to add boulders around the bottom and up the sides of the cinder block using mortar to secure them in place, this is purely for decor though, no water will be running through the rocks.

All I'm really after is a waterfall, not a big display with water running though the rocks. The waterfall will be visible through the foliage but most of it will be unseen.

edbert

My parents are wrapping up a complete backyard redo with a small waterfall(maybe 2 ft) that runs into a creek that crosses the entire backyard. The creek also serves as a natural drain for the yard. I do know that at the end of the creek they have a large pit that is hidden by rocks (15ft square by 6 ft deep) and it has two pumps in it that are individually controlled based on the type of flow that you want. I'll see if I can get a couple of pics of the building process and send them your way to see what their landscaper did.

Good luck.

edbert

Here are a few pics. I don't know if this will help or not but here is their basic setup.

edit: Just saw your most recent post, so my post is likely unnecessary other than to show off my parents new backyard(at least part of it).

tonyb

Gotcha Ron, I see where your going now but I have to ask another question to provoke some thought. How do you propose to keep the water clean ? Free from algae growth ? If you use just chemicals, or a dilution of bleach, make sure no dogs can get to it for a drink.