HK 3490 not enough for my Monitor 70's?
vilespankmachin
Posts: 5
Hey guys.
First post. Mostly home audio noob, I mostly do car audio, but I've been spending a lot more time at home (by choice) so I decided it was finally time to buy a decent stereo and make the neighbors move out. I mostly do quality mp3 and FLAC playback from my pc, with blurays and dvds thrown in (cd's are ripped to flac and put in storage...I never play the originals anymore, I had some bad experiences with car players eating discs....alot of discs...before I noticed).
I knew from square one I wasn't interested in any of that surround junk since my philosophy is to turn the music loud enough to fill the room no matter where you put the speakers. My ears either aren't good enough or I haven't heard a surround system good enough to justify buying when the primary use is music.
Anywho, I bought this:
HK 3490 (on sale)
2 Polk 70's in cherry (my windowsills and closet trim are pine, they contrast nicely) (not on sale but acceptable price. Went on sale 2 days later :-0)
This was nowhere near loud enough or providing me with the bass I'm used to in the car. Heck, even my Logitech Z-2300 computer speakers bass completely overpowered the 70's if I turned them up to about 30% (both receiver and PC speakers are connected with a Y-plug to the same output on the computer). At best I could get the 70's to match the bass from the 120watt 8" Logitech sub if I got the HK up in the -20 to -10 range with the bass control set to max.
I was still feeling kinda bummed about the speakers going on sale (I hadn't ever seen the 70's on sale, guess I should have looked harder) but in that same sale I got a promo code for a Klipsch RW-12d sub for $150 off, making it $350. I almost bought the limit of 5 for resale, if you check ebay or amazon you will see what a good price that is. That helped to take off the sting a bit...
I got this hooked up on wednesday and I am now very pleased with the result.
HOWEVER, I still feel like I should be getting more/want more from the 70's, especially at lower volumes. They sound great when I crank them up, but I can't hear much detail at lower volumes, and from what everyone says about these speakers and this receiver, that isn't very typical, unless I run my equipment THAT much louder than everyone else....
I ditched the brass jumpers for a straight speaker cable, I couldn't tell a difference. I moved inputs on the speakers to the bottom terminals so they would be directly on the woofers, that seemed to help more. I was thinking of bi-wiring tomorrow just to see if it would help, also going to try without the y-cable on the computer output and will try direct input from ipod. I don't think I have anything else to test a better source hanging around, I use the computer for all playback...need to order new soundcard for optical, I thought mine was built in but you need an extra box on the lower end X-Fi cards.
I know other people have this setup and say they like to listen in the -40 to -30 range on this receiver with these speakers. I refer to this position as "ON". Literally, if I get a phone call or want to talk to someone in the same room with me, I find myself turning it to about -35.
I don't think my hearing is that shot, do I really just like it that loud or is there something about my setup I change? I don't want to have to buy separate amps yet, but a new soundcard is in my future, which may help as well...
Anybody with thoughts, suggestions, similar experiences?
First post. Mostly home audio noob, I mostly do car audio, but I've been spending a lot more time at home (by choice) so I decided it was finally time to buy a decent stereo and make the neighbors move out. I mostly do quality mp3 and FLAC playback from my pc, with blurays and dvds thrown in (cd's are ripped to flac and put in storage...I never play the originals anymore, I had some bad experiences with car players eating discs....alot of discs...before I noticed).
I knew from square one I wasn't interested in any of that surround junk since my philosophy is to turn the music loud enough to fill the room no matter where you put the speakers. My ears either aren't good enough or I haven't heard a surround system good enough to justify buying when the primary use is music.
Anywho, I bought this:
HK 3490 (on sale)
2 Polk 70's in cherry (my windowsills and closet trim are pine, they contrast nicely) (not on sale but acceptable price. Went on sale 2 days later :-0)
This was nowhere near loud enough or providing me with the bass I'm used to in the car. Heck, even my Logitech Z-2300 computer speakers bass completely overpowered the 70's if I turned them up to about 30% (both receiver and PC speakers are connected with a Y-plug to the same output on the computer). At best I could get the 70's to match the bass from the 120watt 8" Logitech sub if I got the HK up in the -20 to -10 range with the bass control set to max.
I was still feeling kinda bummed about the speakers going on sale (I hadn't ever seen the 70's on sale, guess I should have looked harder) but in that same sale I got a promo code for a Klipsch RW-12d sub for $150 off, making it $350. I almost bought the limit of 5 for resale, if you check ebay or amazon you will see what a good price that is. That helped to take off the sting a bit...
I got this hooked up on wednesday and I am now very pleased with the result.
HOWEVER, I still feel like I should be getting more/want more from the 70's, especially at lower volumes. They sound great when I crank them up, but I can't hear much detail at lower volumes, and from what everyone says about these speakers and this receiver, that isn't very typical, unless I run my equipment THAT much louder than everyone else....
I ditched the brass jumpers for a straight speaker cable, I couldn't tell a difference. I moved inputs on the speakers to the bottom terminals so they would be directly on the woofers, that seemed to help more. I was thinking of bi-wiring tomorrow just to see if it would help, also going to try without the y-cable on the computer output and will try direct input from ipod. I don't think I have anything else to test a better source hanging around, I use the computer for all playback...need to order new soundcard for optical, I thought mine was built in but you need an extra box on the lower end X-Fi cards.
I know other people have this setup and say they like to listen in the -40 to -30 range on this receiver with these speakers. I refer to this position as "ON". Literally, if I get a phone call or want to talk to someone in the same room with me, I find myself turning it to about -35.
I don't think my hearing is that shot, do I really just like it that loud or is there something about my setup I change? I don't want to have to buy separate amps yet, but a new soundcard is in my future, which may help as well...
Anybody with thoughts, suggestions, similar experiences?
Post edited by vilespankmachin on
Comments
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There is a very big difference between what you are used to in car audio, and home audio. Would you consider yourself a bass lover? It seems from your post that you are. In car audio, you have a very confined space to fill with your sound, and bass does especially well in this environment.
However, in home audio, you have a much larger space to fill. In order to get the kind of volume, not to mention bass that you are used to getting in the car, you would have to go separates, imho. You did right getting the sub. Understanding that these speakers don't have subwoofers in them, the woofers are simply not going to pound out that sub base you are craving. They simply aren't meant for that. You also have variable crossover that you can adjust via the amp, & the sub.
How long have you had this setup, and how many hours do you have on the speakers and amp? You do need to allow for a break-in time. With those speakers, maybe someone who has them can chime in? That amp will need anywhere from 40-70+ hrs to settle in, I'm guessing.
As for the loudness level, you are definitely in the range that may damage your hearing, if you haven't already. Especially in the car, those sound-pressure waves impact your eardrums, and at that level, can do some nasty damage over time.
You may want to go in for a hearing test, just so you know. I hope you don't have any damage, but your hearing is very important, so it is best to think about the long term effects of listening at those very high levels.
I know this was brief, but I hope it helped a little.
Oh, and welcome to the forums, glad to have you!
MattMitsubishi 60" HD LDP
Polk RTI-A3 L/R
Csi-a4 CC
Polk CSW 10 Sub
Pio. Elite VSX-03
Pioneer BDP-51FD Blu-Ray
Polk Fxi3s for surround.[/SIZE] -
after owning the hk3490, i dont feel it properly powers a larger set of speakers, not that the m70's are a huge speaker, but, it certainly did a better job pushing a pair of s6's vs a pair of rta8tl's.
some cheap free sony speakers
psw125
denon 1610
3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that -
silvertuner wrote: »after owning the hk3490, i dont feel it properly powers a larger set of speakers, not that the m70's are a huge speaker, but, it certainly did a better job pushing a pair of s6's vs a pair of rta8tl's.
after owning his 3490 it does a great job w/ my Primus 162's. I turned up the bass and treble on it and it does pump out a decent amount of bass with those speakers...
want to try it w/ my Monitor 40's just to lazy to do it right now....."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
id like to see if it can push your t90e's......
i love the hk3490, but, i just found it ridiculous how "loud" it had to get to try and actually drive the speakers that i was using. altho it didnt do too bad of a job pushing my monitor 10's. normal listening volume in the living room was -20db... and to get loud was -10db or so. if i got any louder than that, it just couldnt handle it lol.
again, i love the hk3490, but feel its better in a bedroom or hooked up to a computer in your office to say a "smaller" speaker. just my input on it tho
some cheap free sony speakers
psw125
denon 1610
3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that -
vilespankmachin wrote: »
Anybody with thoughts, suggestions, similar experiences?
In most normal environments the HK should be able to get the 70's loud without the receiver breaking a sweat. They are not a hard speaker to drive @ 90db sensitivity and 8 ohms.
What are your room dimensions (L/W/H)? What is your seating distance? Where are your speakers placed relative to the walls (or any other boundary?). -
Thanks for the responses so far, esp polka. I will probably get that checked out, I am probably fine...I usually only leave it cranked up for 1 song or 2, and I always kept the windows down to minimize the pressure (I have no idea if this helped, but when I had long hair it was fun to have the subs push it in and out of the open moonroof).
I judge my hearing based on other peoples, and I am always hearing werid things that annoy me in everyday life most people have my age can't hear and have no idea what I'm talking about....
I can still hear plenty of things I'm missing when I play stuff through my Sennheiser headphones which are about 1/2 my audio use (which sound a lot better through the 3490, haven't seen this mentioned much).
Not a long of responses so far but I already get the feeling I'm going to be getting separates....and 2 more speakers :-D.
I have been looking and for what I want to spend right now I'm thinking of picking up a set of Monitor40s and letting the 3490 drive them even though it would be slightly above their rated power (can they take it? My last car stereo I built was in my Mazda3 and I drove the factory speakers with a 60x4 continuous load for 4 years at very high volumes and the rear door speakers were just starting to let get when I sold it...they had 7 watts from the factory...).
I was then thinking 2 Audiosource AMP 210's, bridged, running each 70 series speaker, so that would be 225 watts RMS vs. the 120ish I'm running now (plus the 2 new speakers). Heck I live close enough I could drive to their company HQ and get them :-D. -
Oh forgot....I probably have about 20-30 hours on my amp so far.
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Off topic,
PSW505 powered sub is marked down to $199 on the 'egg, until 1/20/11. Promo code EMCKJJF22. If anybody cares... -
vilespankmachin wrote: »I was then thinking 2 Audiosource AMP 210's, bridged, running each 70 series speaker, so that would be 225 watts RMS vs. the 120ish I'm running now (plus the 2 new speakers). Heck I live close enough I could drive to their company HQ and get them :-D.
Plenty of used amplification out there. Also check out this interesting tidbit from AVSForum:
This is about the Peavey IPR1600 $299
I tried the IPR-1600 as a subwoofer amp in my dedicated 2 channel system that usually has a QSC PLX3402 driving a pair of sealed 15 inch subs which also have a Marchand Bassis being used to tune them. This is only 2 channel, not home theater so no WOTW bass stuff. Nobody could tell any difference whatsoever when the Peavey was being used vs. the QSC except when it ran out of power. Had I used one of the bigger Peavey amps, nobody would have been able to tell the difference at all between the 2 amps. My subs are crossed at 40 Hz and I am playing High Resolution (upwards of 44.1/16 KHz) music through this system. And yes, there are a lot of pieces with stunningly low bass that sound wonderful in hi res 2 channel music.
I used the amplifer for a while in my bedroom system that uses a pair of Dayton 3 way floorstanding speakers with dual 8 inch woofers, 5 1/2" mid, and Seas H1212 tweeters. Over the years I have used many different amps in the bedroom (usually cast offs from the main system) such as Onkyo receivers, Bryston 3B-ST, Hafler DH-220 modified, and currently a Harmon Kardon AV receiver. I heard a much cleaner upper mid range/high range than I have heard with any other of the mentioned units. I find it very hard to admit that the Peavey IPR-1600 sounded really good as a full range amplifier because my own built in prejudices formed over many years of using pro gear and home audio gear still tell me quite loudly that "PEAVEY IS NOT A HIGH FIDELITY AMPLIFIER". But my ears told me that I could hear more detail that was cleaner and more open than the other amplifiers. It has been quite hard to get over built in prejudices vs. what I heard.
OTOH, when I used the IPR-1600 in my system and pulled out my Pass amplifiers and inserted the Peavey, there was a difference between the two. The Pass amplifiers sounded much better in all areas. This was a comparison of a $3,000+ amplifer vs. a $300 amplifier. That being said, there was not a 10X difference between the two. Law of diminishing returns. And my class A Pass amps double as space heaters also
The amplifier sounds better than the numbers reveal, even the factory specs. If I had to criticize this amplifier, it would be external to it. GET RID OF THE BLUE LED's!!!! (marketing's fault) The thing lights up like a roadhouse in the middle of the night on a lonely southern road. Where are the binding posts? (a cost cutting measure). The fan in the amplifer is just too damn loud for the unit to sit in the same room. All of these criticisms are a moot point as soon as you use the amplifier for it intended purpose. Pro Sound Amplification. If you can work around these points, you have a damn good $300 amp that will play good high fidelity music.
Chuck
Plenty of easy fan mods out there to answer a critical point before it is raised.
Not meant to stir anything up other than an interesting perspective on a 'Pro-Amp'. -
vilespankmachin wrote: »Thanks for the responses so far, esp polka. I will probably get that checked out, I am probably fine...I usually only leave it cranked up for 1 song or 2, and I always kept the windows down to minimize the pressure (I have no idea if this helped, but when I had long hair it was fun to have the subs push it in and out of the open moonroof).
I judge my hearing based on other peoples, and I am always hearing werid things that annoy me in everyday life most people have my age can't hear and have no idea what I'm talking about....
I can still hear plenty of things I'm missing when I play stuff through my Sennheiser headphones which are about 1/2 my audio use (which sound a lot better through the 3490, haven't seen this mentioned much).
Not a long of responses so far but I already get the feeling I'm going to be getting separates....and 2 more speakers :-D.
I have been looking and for what I want to spend right now I'm thinking of picking up a set of Monitor40s and letting the 3490 drive them even though it would be slightly above their rated power (can they take it? My last car stereo I built was in my Mazda3 and I drove the factory speakers with a 60x4 continuous load for 4 years at very high volumes and the rear door speakers were just starting to let get when I sold it...they had 7 watts from the factory...).
I was then thinking 2 Audiosource AMP 210's, bridged, running each 70 series speaker, so that would be 225 watts RMS vs. the 120ish I'm running now (plus the 2 new speakers). Heck I live close enough I could drive to their company HQ and get them :-D.
IMO its better to "overdrive" a speaker than underpower it. you ultimately have control of the volume knob, if the speakers are distorting, its beyond time to turn it down. just bc your amp is rated at 300watts, doesnt mean you have to use all 300watts of it lol.
some cheap free sony speakers
psw125
denon 1610
3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that -
What I think you are hearing is HK's very laid back and warm sound. Hk's are not as dynamic as say an onkyo or a pio elite. Some confuse brightness with being louder. HK might now be what you are looking for is you just want to turn your speakers loud enough to fill a room. I have had good experience with HK's for music. For HT, it definitely did not have the dynamics I was looking for. YMMV
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silvertuner wrote: »id like to see if it can push your t90e's......
What you doing tomorrow.... :biggrin:
Cause we can totally make that one happen....
Hook up my Zune to it and see how the T90e's handle it.....
Heck we could even hook up the PSW125 too....
Or hook it up to the Carver and then the T90e's :eek:"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Remember, in most instances reaching 0db on many AVRs is considered reference volume. I find it hard to believe that an HK cannot power a set of M-70s fine? It's a high current 120 watt/channel into 8 ohm design.
I've run a pair of FAIRLY large JBL home version Monitors that are about as efficient as M-70s and I rarely exceed -10db on that same receiver? The room is 10 x 17 x 8.5 (so not big) but it puts out plenty of sound. Of course M-70s are not going to put out CAR blaster BASS? My JBLs can trounce M-70s on the bottom end even playing off a weaker AVR.
You have the option for a sub or two on that HK....sounds like you should take advantage of it if you're a bass head.
One should also keep in mind that NOT all music has voluminous RAP-like 1000s of watt quadruple 15" car-sub bass. And that that bass is really not true to the actually recording. The car boys are running their bass HOT!
Another thing to consider is a cheap POWER amp as the HK has pre-outs. This will MOST definitely up the volume and boost and tighten up the M-70s bass abilities. Because it is true that the M-70s can handle quite a bit of extra power.
On another, unrelated note. After seeing a few of the OLD posts that were 'bumped' up yesterday. I'm starting to feel like we should all enter some TECHNICAL institute and END all of our posts with a SCHEMATIC of a Class A amplifier's design! Would that be like the old CP? I wouldn't mind seeing some of that even if I don't grasp it all, and frankly I don't see any police on this site preventing anyone of our illustrious and 'brilliant' tweakers, Engineers, and repairmen from engaging in the most rarefied technical discussions that they are capable of. Have at it I say...plenty of room to learn here!
CP is what 'everyone' makes of it. Don't 'lament', 'act'!!
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
If I remeber correct, when I had the TSi500 demo, which is very similar to the Monitor 70, I tried them with my HK3490 and they sounded OK, but not great at all.
Then we hooked up the TSi500's to an old Denon Power amp POA-1500 and they came to life!!! -
I don't disagree. They definitely open up with a power amp. Just that they're not going to put out the kind of bass the OP seems to want them too.
Solution....Subs--two big bass blasters.
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
Remember, in most instances reaching 0db on many AVRs is considered reference volume. I find it hard to believe that an HK cannot power a set of M-70s fine? It's a high current 120 watt/channel into 8 ohm design.
I've run a pair of FAIRLY large JBL home version Monitors that are about as efficient as M-70s and I rarely exceed -10db on that same receiver? The room is 10 x 17 x 8.5 (so not big) but it puts out plenty of sound. Of course M-70s are not going to put out CAR blaster BASS? My JBLs can trounce M-70s on the bottom end even playing off a weaker AVR.
You have the option for a sub or two on that HK....sounds like you should take advantage of it if you're a bass head.
cnh
I have already addressed the bass problem (with a sub) and the speakers are loud enough for me if I turn it up to -20 or higher. My problem is I can't hear much detail in the -20 to -40 range as indicated on the receiver and I basically am wondering if this is typical? I plan on adding separates since everyone says these speakers really dance with more power. I was then going to continue to use the integrated HK amp to drive a set of Monitor40's I should probably buy soon before they disappear...just so I have matching speakers.
I didn't have THAT big a stereo in my last car build. Just two little 12's running 400RMS each and a 60x4 RMS amp to the stock speakers. I expected the stock speakers to blow up after a day or two but they kept going for 4 years until I sold the car with the stereo in it...it's strange but I never felt I needed to upgrade the speakers, first time that's ever happened to me.
---EDIT---
Forgot to say the current sub blows away the car setup, hands down. -
I gotcha v.... It looks like you may prefer a more forward, detailed receiver. As said above the HK is known more for its laid back musical quality that is very tolerant of many speakers. But some just like a more edgy and focused sound....if that's the case look at some of Yamaha's offerings or Onkyo. You might not want to stick with the HK.
BTW, I usually run speakers I have attached to that HK at about -20 or above. So I think we're hearing something similar? And that includes bookshelves. Another thing to remember is that volume settings on modern receivers are not LINEAR, the volume increases more rapidly the closer you get to full power. It's not like volume controls used to be years ago.
The M40s should probably do fine on that HK.
Good Luck!
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
vilespankmachin wrote: »I have already addressed the bass problem (with a sub) and the speakers are loud enough for me if I turn it up to -20 or higher. My problem is I can't hear much detail in the -20 to -40 range as indicated on the receiver and I basically am wondering if this is typical? I plan on adding separates since everyone says these speakers really dance with more power. I was then going to continue to use the integrated HK amp to drive a set of Monitor40's I should probably buy soon before they disappear...just so I have matching speakers.
I didn't have THAT big a stereo in my last car build. Just two little 12's running 400RMS each and a 60x4 RMS amp to the stock speakers. I expected the stock speakers to blow up after a day or two but they kept going for 4 years until I sold the car with the stereo in it...it's strange but I never felt I needed to upgrade the speakers, first time that's ever happened to me.
---EDIT---
Forgot to say the current sub blows away the car setup, hands down.
You need to understand its not MORE or TOO MUCH power that "blows up" speakers. It's too little or bad power (distortion).
Your stock speakers would play all day even with 200wrms / channel. By upgrading the amp you actually decreased the chance that they'd blow up.
Also, 400wrms subs in a car that is 20 cubic feet is going to be infinitely louder than 400wrms subs in a 2000 cubic foot room.Main Surround -
Epson 8350 Projector/ Elite Screens 120" / Pioneer Elite SC-35 / Sunfire Signature / Focal Chorus 716s / Focal Chorus CC / Polk MC80 / Polk PSW150 sub
Bedroom - Sharp Aquos 70" 650 / Pioneer SC-1222k / Polk RT-55 / Polk CS-250
Den - Rotel RSP-1068 / Threshold CAS-2 / Boston VR-M60 / BDP-05FD -
EndersShadow wrote: »What you doing tomorrow.... :biggrin:
Cause we can totally make that one happen....
Hook up my Zune to it and see how the T90e's handle it.....
Heck we could even hook up the PSW125 too....
Or hook it up to the Carver and then the T90e's :eek:
ehh. im sick as hell and highly doubt u want to catch what i have. full body ache accompanied by so much bowel confusion and coughing i think i need to be admitted in for government testing of possible chemical warfare.
some cheap free sony speakers
psw125
denon 1610
3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that -
silvertuner wrote: »ehh. im sick as hell and highly doubt u want to catch what i have. full body ache accompanied by so much bowel confusion and coughing i think i need to be admitted in for government testing of possible chemical warfare.
lol...yeah I just got outta the hospital....I want to not get sick for at least 3 months lol..."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
i feel a lot better today. if u wanna do that we can lol. i have actually been able to get out of the house and move. woke up congestion free, cough free, explosive fecal matter free. lol
some cheap free sony speakers
psw125
denon 1610
3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that -
silvertuner wrote: »i feel a lot better today. if u wanna do that we can lol. i have actually been able to get out of the house and move. woke up congestion free, cough free, explosive fecal matter free. lol
Nah, tired myself from running around all day for car crap....
Perhaps we can do something next Saturday......."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
thats always a possibility. next weekend im starting my search for something new to power the altecs. something with a remote effing control lol
some cheap free sony speakers
psw125
denon 1610
3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that -
Get a good source and cables. Don't turn up the tone when cranking it. Turn on tone defeat or bypass during loud listening.
BenPlease. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
Thanks
Ben
