10awg wire on 20 amp circuit ?

digitalvideo

From what I read 10awg wire with 20 amp circuit breaker, and 20 amp receptacles work nicely for HT wiring, have any of you installed this for your setup and is it safe or are there any potential fire hazards? Some of my readings lately have informed me to go 10 awg romex instead of 12. Are there any very robust receptacles that will accept 10 awg wire?

jimmydep

This would be fine, it's ok to use an oversized wire with lower rated circuit breaker.
10awg wire is usually run to 220v appliances, but you could just attach the wire to a good quality 20amp receptacle, it's just a **** working with such a heavy wire. I might suggest using a 1900 size box to give you a little more room to work with the extra stiffness of the 10awg wire.

Jimmy D

WilliamM2

I'd just stick with 12 guage, it's easier to work with.

Is this the same circuit you were discussing a while back? With less than 10 amps of eqipment on the circuit? Did you ever find out what was in the wall?

disneyjoe7

I like the 10 guage idea, I plan on during the same in the future using 3 20amp outlets.

polrbehr

You'll be fine with that, though it is somewhat overkill, unless you happen to have some laying around? But I can't see why you'd go out and purposely buy solid 10AWG for this; it is a PITA to use with std. receptacles/boxes:frown:.

jimmydep wrote: »

This would be fine, it's ok to use an oversized wire with lower rated circuit breaker.
10awg wire is usually run to 220v appliances, but you could just attach the wire to a good quality 20amp receptacle, it's just a **** working with such a heavy wire. I might suggest using a 1900 size box to give you a little more room to work with the extra stiffness of the 10awg wire.

Jimmy D

Spent some time on your jobs looking over Sparky's shoulder, eh, Jimmy? :biggrin:

digitalvideo

WilliamM2 wrote: »

I'd just stick with 12 guage, it's easier to work with.

Is this the same circuit you were discussing a while back? With less than 10 amps of eqipment on the circuit? Did you ever find out what was in the wall?

I had another electrician come over, this one works for the city and state and wires the high schools.

For the time being he took off that 12 amp circuit and put back on a 15 amp non-AFCI. I am doing a lot of planning and thinking of new wiring for my HT and dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's before I start the project...

I'd like to install atleast 2 dedicated seperate circuits on the same phase behind my HT, one for the Sunfire amp, one for everything else.

Are there any performance benefits using 10awg over 12awg and does it handle more watts?

disneyjoe7

Using a 10awg over 12awg wire you will have a less of a voltage drop at the outlet, drawing the same current.

angelsfann02

Granted I'm no electrician, I would use what is recommended by code. The thickness of the wire may be too thick to correctly install at the breaker. After a while, due to typical warming and cooling cycles, the wire may work itself loose. For insurance claims sake, and safety sake, let someone licensed & bonded due the work.

mmadden28

12 amp circuit???

You can run two 12awg (12/2) wires to two separate 20 amp receptacles, or one 10awg (10/3) to a single 20 amp receptacle but wire it as a split receptacle, meaning the top outlet gets one circuit and the bottom gets the other (and there are essentially two separate breakers so two circuits).

I ran a split receptacle-10/3 to my HT rig. I'm not going into much detail since I'm sure your electrician is doing the actual work and he should know what those options are. 10 awg is harder to work with but you save a bit of money on labor by only having one cable run vs. two, at least that's my understanding anyway. Otherwise the end result is essentially the same. Whether you're close to maxing out a 15A circuit or not, if you're getting a new circuit installed there is no reason IMO not to make it a 20A circuit (vs. a 15A)

**EDIT**
I ran 10awg for my Home Theater Split recptacle mainly because it was about 100' from the panel which resulted in a a huge Voltage drop issue. 12awg (12/3) should work as well.

mmadden28

angelsfann02 wrote: »

...For insurance claims sake, and safety sake, let someone licensed & bonded due the work.

He did say he is using an electrician...

And obviously you have to use the outlet and breaker rated and built for the wire being used. 20A rated outlets usually can accept 10awg wire. If it can't, then it should't be used. If it wasn't safe it wouldn't be UL listed. A 10 gauge wire will not heat up as fast as a 12 gauge wire so likely less susceptible to heating/cooling cycles than one might think-actually it will dissipate the heat better.

WilliamM2

digitalvideo wrote: »

I
Are there any performance benefits using 10awg over 12awg and does it handle more watts?

The current will still be limited to the breaker and outlets. Both 10 or 12 will handle 20 amps. As Disney said, there will be less voltage drop, but it's probably negligible unless the run is extremely long, or you are constantly drawing close to max current. You aren't drawing much.

What guage wire is in the wall now, you never told us in the other thread, or this one?

disneyjoe7

Right on Fastz28

jimmydep

polrbehr wrote: »

Spent some time on your jobs looking over Sparky's shoulder, eh, Jimmy? :biggrin:

Yup, Construction sites were my playground, and I've worked with some of the best contractors and tradesmen in the entire USA. While I'm not a bone-fide electricain, I have done my fair share of electrical work.

Harry, Have a Very Merry Christmas!!!

Jimmy

digitalvideo

WilliamM2 wrote: »

What guage wire is in the wall now, you never told us in the other thread, or this one?

I think I mentioned it a few times? If I didn't, it's currently a 15amp on 14 gauge wire, the original electrician followed code but he never wired a HT for a basement. He didn't put in dedicated circuits. I believe according to NEC if a basement is turned into a living area there has to be AFCI breakers installed in certain areas.

I'd like to have the new electrician put in 3 seperate dedicated circuits, 3 outlets for my HT. All on 20 amp circuits, seperate individual circuit breakers, 10awg wire. I'd like to take as much stress off each circuit as possible, I have a pretty good size HT now and I will be adding equipment to it in the near future.

angelsfann02

mmadden28 wrote: »

He did say he is using an electrician...

And obviously you have to use the outlet and breaker rated and built for the wire being used. 20A rated outlets usually can accept 10awg wire. If it can't, then it should't be used. If it wasn't safe it wouldn't be UL listed. A 10 gauge wire will not heat up as fast as a 12 gauge wire so likely less susceptible to heating/cooling cycles than one might think-actually it will dissipate the heat better.

Gotcha, but i'm basing my reply on information given to me by my electrician. Where I live temps range from 117 degrees in july to 34 degrees in the winter. I understand UL listed items and how they work, but electrical jobs are best left for the pros. You can end up damaging your gear, or hurt yourself real bad.

mmadden28

angelsfann02 wrote: »

Gotcha, but i'm basing my reply on information given to me by my electrician. Where I live temps range from 117 degrees in july to 34 degrees in the winter. I understand UL listed items and how they work, but electrical jobs are best left for the pros. You can end up damaging your gear, or hurt yourself real bad.

How do the ambient temp extremes and the hot and cold cycles you referred to earlier differ depending on the wire gauge used then?

I'm still not sure where you are getting the idea that he is doing this DIY?

angelsfann02

The way it was explained to me, was that electrical cables, of any gauge, go through expansion and contraction. Over time, if not properly installed, they can come undone. Yes, electrical breakers have a torque value foe the screws that connect the wire to the breaker. If the screw is not torqued to spec, the wire can come undone. Cable that is incorrectly sized for a breaker will also be an issue. Thats all I was trying to get at. Didnt mean to derail a forum, just adding my experience.

Systems

I ran 2 dedicated circuits a few months ago.
1 was VH Audio Cryoed 10 ga romex, the other basic 12 ga romex.
Both have their own 20 amp breaker.
They are in conduit.
I prefer the 10ga by far to the 12ga, for audio at least.

I am not running huge powerstation amps, but the cryoed 10 sounds better to my ear, and just has more lifelike extension at both ends.
I am using some of the better Furutech receptacles with these lines.
One of the best upgrades to any system that you can do, IMHO!
Makes your powercords shine also!:biggrin:

If your going to do it, do it great the first time!
You will be glad you did.

TrashyTrucker

I have a dedicated 20a circuit for my system. I have AQ pc's to all componets, however all componets are plugged into one panamax line conditioner/surge. The panamax is only rated to 15amps. So 12g is plenty heavy enough for most systems, if you do want to isolate and run dedicated power to each amp, that is fine. I would though recommend using a conditioner/surge for each amp.... but again look at your specs (panamax) is only 15a even if you do have a 20a outlet. I dont know what other products used as conditioners are rated at.


As for wire 10g is fine but as mentioned it is hard to work with and you would have to pig-tail back down to 12g anyways. which you may not have enough room in a standard outlet box.
For outlet receptacle I use this:
http://www.highend-electronics.com/38.html#plex


regards,
Matt

BTW happy new year USA'

disneyjoe7

Changing wires size in a circuit is illegal as I know. So if circuit is 10g it all needs to be 10g.

TrashyTrucker

TrashyTrucker wrote: »

I have a dedicated 20a circuit for my system. I have AQ pc's to all componets, however all componets are plugged into one panamax line conditioner/surge. The panamax is only rated to 15amps. So 12g is plenty heavy enough for most systems, if you do want to isolate and run dedicated power to each amp, that is fine. I would though recommend using a conditioner/surge for each amp.... but again look at your specs (panamax) is only 15a even if you do have a 20a outlet. I dont know what other products used as conditioners are rated at.


As for wire 10g is fine but as mentioned it is hard to work with and you would have to pig-tail back down to 12g anyways. which you may not have enough room in a standard outlet box.
For outlet receptacle I use this:
http://www.highend-electronics.com/38.html#plex


regards,
Matt

BTW happy new year USA'

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Changing wires size in a circuit is illegal as I know. So if circuit is 10g it all needs to be 10g.

respectively speaking, going from a 12g to a 10g would not be unsafe.


OP question was:
would converting a 12g to 10g would be an upgrade... or overkill?
Im pretty sure one would not run the new 10g on a 30a breaker. I would also not raise the value of the breaker, but instead stay with the 20a breaker.
The wire upgrade would be the cost of the wire only and minus the ends to convert back to 12... Although using a single 12g power power supply is suffice. (unless if you ever plan on powering two huge 1100 mono block amplifiers. :eek: and then IMO one might use multible 20a circuits)...if you are starting from scratch the offset for the heavior wire is only minor, but not necessary.
Most good quality PC's/ power cables are only 13g. I run 4 AQ NRG-3's and 2 AQ NRG-1.5's to power 2 Hafler amps, Plasma tv, sat, bdp, avr and (cdp- stockcord), all through the Max 5100. The Max has its own 12g dedicated wire from the panel straight to the outlet. The Max 5100 plugs directly to the outlet. However the Max's internals are only rated for 15a.
Which now in theroy, makes this no longer a 20a circuit on the system side but a 15a. The system can now only draw up to 15a now, And so far I have yet to exceed the
15a limit. (However the wish is, perhaps someday possibally to add 2 subs to the mix.) These too will run through the same 20a/12g chain.) Went long on this point!
I hope this makes any sense whatsoever. :cool:

disneyjoe7

TrashyTrucker wrote: »

respectively speaking, going from a 12g to a 10g would not be unsafe.

I understand your thinking, but feel it's illegal and maybe unsafe.

The reason behind this. You run 12g wire to "4" 15amp outlets with a 20amp breaker, legal. You say to yourself ok so if I need a 15amp outlet over here, it's 14g 15amp right? WRONG! not safe and illegal. Why you ask in layman terms later you say ok run another 15amp outlet from the other 15amp outlet which was remember feed from the 14g wire. You plug in 2 heavy side devices which draw 10 amp each in both new 15 amp outlets. Breaker is 20amp and the wire feeding it is what 14g 15amp see the problem now? You now live in a TOASTER and you are about to DIE! There are laws about this **** for a reason. They may sound F'd up but there are a reasons behind it.

F1nut

Go 10 gauge or go home.

Are there any very robust receptacles that will accept 10 awg wire?

Sure, any 20 amp rated receptacle.

digitalvideo

TrashyTrucker wrote: »

however all componets are plugged into one panamax line conditioner/surge. The panamax is only rated to 15amps.

I would NOT plug all that into one surge protector, you are overloading it. I've talked to a few home theater designers over on avsforum and Hometheatermag who recommend one surge protector for the amp and one for everything else, you might get away with plugging a sub into that surge protector too.

Also, NEVER use a mov based device downstream to plug your electronics directly into, the mov diverts the surge from the neutral to the ground which leads to ground contamination and bad electricity will still reach the connected equipment. MOV's also create a common mode surge. The best company to use for surge elimination is SurgeX a professional industrial company that uses Advanced Series Mode to eliminate harmful surges and filters out EMI/RFI.

Panamax are made in China along with all the others (APC, Monster, Triplite) in undisclosed locations. SurgeX are made entirely in the U.S.

SurgeX is used in professional sports stadiums, recording studios, Carnegie Hall, Paramound studios, NASA uses it to protect the uplink of the Hubble Space Telescope etc.

SurgeX used at the new Dallas Cowboys Stadium:

http://www.listentech.com/blog/Dallas-Cowboys-Stadium-Spotlights-Listen/

http://surgex.com/

toucanet

This is interesting reading.

I did not know about the receptacles designed for audio (Tesla Plex, etc.).

Is there a recommended manufacturer for the 12-gauge or 10-gauge wire for stereo or HT gear?

TrashyTrucker

digitalvideo wrote: »

...Panamax are made in China along with all the others (APC, Monster, Triplite) in undisclosed locations. SurgeX are made entirely in the U.S.
]

Just about everything is shipped somewhere else. But that should not be the excuse for whether one should use something or not. I have experience with panamax and perhaps I must have been fortunate then, because I have been running all my gear through one 15a mov clamping device(s) for several years now. However perhaps I will check SurgeX out and do an inquiry. thanks.

Note: Furman is another company that doesnt use Metal oxide varistor's either.
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=02&id=ELITE-20PFi

another recommended product besides panamax:
Balanced power technologies
http://www.b-p-t.com/


Edit: did some research and one can get a furman ELITE-20 PF i
that has:
...Power Factor Technology provides over 55 Amps peak charge surplus current for power-starved amplifiers...
Which is a buffer. cool!

TrashyTrucker

toucanet wrote: »

This is interesting reading.

I did not know about the receptacles designed for audio (Tesla Plex, etc.).

Is there a recommended manufacturer for the 12-gauge or 10-gauge wire for stereo or HT gear?

I use plain 12-2w/g house wire from Lowes.

digitalvideo

TrashyTrucker wrote: »

Balanced power technologies
http://www.b-p-t.com/

I would steer clear of BPT too, they're just like Chang Light Speed, some of the engineers and electricians on AVSForum like BobL who install HT's have taken apart many surge protectors, the joke is the BPT's and Chang's are "mars dust" there's little truth on their website about their products, plus no credible recording studio or engineer will use something like that to protect electronics. BPT is not a surge eliminator, it's more a marketing scam to be a "musical" power conditioner which is a joke, it won't stop harmful surges.

The best you can get is SurgeX or Brickwall for protection.