Something still confusing me...

organ

Ok, there's one thing that's been bothering me. No matter how much I think about it, I just don't get it. So here it is....

Why is it that in theaters and live concert there is so much more dynamic/slam than our home audio? Also, they sound much BIGGER too.

When I think about it, it doesn't make sense. When you compare the radiating surface area of our speakers vs the amount of air in the room, we have more radiating surface area to air ratio in our set ups vs the theater/concert halls. That means we should be getting more of everything. So why doesn't our set ups sound as "big"? Why do we need giant speakers in our rooms to even come close?

kawizx9r

Not alot of room for that sound to work with?

That's just the beauty of this hobby, chase what sounds 'reference' (the real thing) to you.

dkg999

It's not just radiating surface, it's also the amount of air moved via speed/distance of the cone movement. You also don't have some of the limitations of our recorded media in a live concert. Lots of factors.

heiney9

A recording does not capture the scale of a live event. In much the same way a photograph isn't the same as seeing it in real life.

In the case of a movie theater special recording techniques, multi channel, digital processing and lots of speakers can do a nice job, but still not like the real thing.

It all comes down to most recordings not being able to capture the scale of a live event.

H9

Face

You need efficient, full range speakers(think multiple, large drivers) and plenty of quality SS power. SET amps and FRD's will do the opposite.

organ

Thanks for the input, guys. I'm sorry, I forgot to mention. When I was talking about live shows, the thing I had in mind was when regular music cd's are being played through the PA during band changes or intro music from their albums.
There is always this bigness and pure authority to the sound.

Now I'm beginning to think the size of the wave hitting you is one factor. I used to own a pair of Mirage bi-polar speakers and they were able to pull this off very well. I'm guessing the secondary wave from the back drivers after all the reflections is much bigger and spread out all over the room?
When we're in a live show or theater, we're much farther away from the speakers so the sound waves are much bigger when they reach us. I'm just guessing here.

organ

Face,
Yeah I did run that kind of set up for a while with big horns. I still have a full range horn speaker system I'm not using at the moment. The thing you brought up about large drivers is the reason I'm confused. To get that big sound, why do we need giant speakers in our home settings? Looking at room size vs speaker size for a home setting and theater is what I don't understand lol.
I'm sure there are many factors involved like Dkg mentioned, but I'm trying to get at least a small understanding of this because right now it doesn't make sense to me lol.

megasat16

organ wrote: »

Ok, there's one thing that's been bothering me. No matter how much I think about it, I just don't get it. So here it is....

Why is it that in theaters and live concert there is so much more dynamic/slam than our home audio? Also, they sound much BIGGER too.

When I think about it, it doesn't make sense. When you compare the radiating surface area of our speakers vs the amount of air in the room, we have more radiating surface area to air ratio in our set ups vs the theater/concert halls. That means we should be getting more of everything. So why doesn't our set ups sound as "big"? Why do we need giant speakers in our rooms to even come close?

Absolutely Not TRUE! No theater ever will come close to what I can hear in my HT room. It's so frickin dynamic and lots of thunder that you'll pee if you don't know.

18x20 room with 16 LSi speakers and 8 subs driven by 5 amps (2 x HCA-2205AT and 3 x Pioneer Elite M-91) all for the HT room.

Probably overkill and over done but over joy for sure. I busted my double paned window once and I will not turn my SSP to 0dB ever again.

Unless it's a movie night, I only use 4 subs so the police don't come knock my doors. :biggrin:

So, it can be DONE and then some and not for much $$$ too.

Sorry! Not meant to show off or anything but eager to say it can be done. :redface:

megasat16

Face wrote: »

You need efficient, full range speakers(think multiple, large drivers) and plenty of quality SS power. SET amps and FRD's will do the opposite.

+1 to That. and multiple subs.

Face

organ wrote: »

Face,
Yeah I did run that kind of set up for a while with big horns. I still have a full range horn speaker system I'm not using at the moment. The thing you brought up about large drivers is the reason I'm confused. To get that big sound, why do we need giant speakers in our home settings?

Large drivers generally are more efficient, which results in less thermal compression and better dynamics. They don't necessarily have to be giant though as multiple subs will allow the use of smaller towers.

playback

My system took a turn for dynamic bliss after upgrading the power. This was after two dedicated lines which was nice, but when I switched from a monster hts 2500 to a Ps audio Quintet on the 20amp 12 awg line with a Powerport Premier outlet, I succesfully ran my TV, 200x3 amp M&k mx150 THX certified sub, preamp,blu ray and Sacd players. For the 10awg 20 amp line I added a Ps audio Soloist Premier in wall conditioner for my Halo A21 all powercables are Ps audio perfectwave AC10 , AC3 and AC12. Now this gave me dynamics that would make any theater green with envy. complete envelopment in my 20x21x8 room. The lossless tracks are gut wrenching and I have not even come close to using the reference level:eek: I always chicken out first. No real need for more than 5.1 in my case just needed to liberate the power I aready had!:biggrin:

decal

Sorry! Not meant to show off or anything but eager to say it can be done.

yea,right!!

LuSh

With regards to movies I have found most DVD's/Blu Rays are watered down from the original theatrical mix or re-eq'd for home use. A simple comparison of a Laserdisc vs DVD/Blu Ray will confirm that. LD used theatrical mixes (No EQ translation for home use). I currently own and have compared over 10 LD's and every time the LD sounds more dynamic.

http://www.videophile.info/Graphs/JP/JP_01.htm

Above is a graph showing differences among DVD DTS/DD and LD DD/DTS/ using Jurassic Park as an example. These same differences have been audible in my experience with Top Gun, Mission Impossible etc...

LD used uncompressed PCM but I don't think that has anything to do with the dynamics...I think it has more to do with the way Dolby Encoders worked when moving away from LD too DVD.

Why would they re-eq? Because the consumer demands it, most people don't have a huge theater where they can play all their movies at reference volume. In fact most people won't even buy a receiver now without some sort of Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Range Control or Volume ability. The movies are mixed for home use. What you hear at the theater is a lot different. For better or worse, depending on your perspective.

hearingimpared

I think there is an excitement and wow factor to live events too that add to the emotional feelings. After all our skin is one big sensitive organ too (no pun intended).

mdaudioguy

My HT is better than going to a theater. No lines, no talking, no texting, etc...

And the sound doesn't leave me wanting for more either.

quadzilla

organ wrote: »

Ok, there's one thing that's been bothering me. No matter how much I think about it, I just don't get it. So here it is....

Why is it that in theaters and live concert there is so much more dynamic/slam than our home audio? Also, they sound much BIGGER too.

When I think about it, it doesn't make sense. When you compare the radiating surface area of our speakers vs the amount of air in the room, we have more radiating surface area to air ratio in our set ups vs the theater/concert halls. That means we should be getting more of everything. So why doesn't our set ups sound as "big"? Why do we need giant speakers in our rooms to even come close?

It sounds "bigger" because of the reverb and echo in the room or hall that the event happens in. Our brains interpret the various delays in the arrival of the sound as size. This phenomenon has long been noted. Somewhat ironically, we spend a lot of time trying to kill unwanted reflections in our rooms. In a large room, a large percentage of what you hear is reflections, but because of the size of the room, it doesn't interfere with the sound the way it does in a small room, it simply adds to it.

As for more "slam", the fact that they have multiple arrays of large woofers doesn't hurt, nor does the amount of power they can put through them. But the bass at live shows frequently sounds both muddy and boomy to me, likely because they have the same idiot that turns the bass and treble all the way up on his stereo "because it sounds better" running the sound board at live shows, where he does the same thing. Same thing seems to be happening at American Arena in Dallas. And it's why I don't go to Mavs games, even though I enjoy watching them. The sound guy they have needs to be shot.

steveinaz

I think it's a combo of large amplification, and horn-loaded large speakers. I couldn't believe how good the Beatles music sounded during Cirque du Soliel's "Beatles Love" show at the Mirage in Vegas. Extremely clean, clear music that was never glaring nor fatiquing--Just HUGE and tactile.

madmax

organ wrote: »

Ok, there's one thing that's been bothering me. No matter how much I think about it, I just don't get it. So here it is....

Why is it that in theaters and live concert there is so much more dynamic/slam than our home audio? Also, they sound much BIGGER too.

When I think about it, it doesn't make sense. When you compare the radiating surface area of our speakers vs the amount of air in the room, we have more radiating surface area to air ratio in our set ups vs the theater/concert halls. That means we should be getting more of everything. So why doesn't our set ups sound as "big"? Why do we need giant speakers in our rooms to even come close?

I think it is how well the sound is matched to the room - acoustic impedance.

Several things have given me this fully matched sound.
1. a subwoofer whose speed matches the mains
2. a subwoofer with enough tactile volume
3. super large horns which match the acoustic impedance of the room
4. bass speakers (not sub) in horn loaded boxes which match the acoustic impedance of the room
5. Speakers set at 90 degree angle or greater intersecting a few inches forward of your knees when sitting on a couch. This also allows better depth as well as width.
6. A large enough room with correct dimensions.

You can get it with low power and efficient speakers, that is not the concern. It took a long time and a lot of experimenting to get here but I now have everything from a semi-intimate voice to a full blown high quality large concert hall. I am now working on getting down to a super-intimate voice but will need some room treatments to get there.

I also find in fine home theaters that the sound is way too mechanical, like a super high powered car stereo system. This is due (I think) to pressurizing a smaller room rather than having a large room where the wavelengths can play out rather than pressurizing.
madmax

megasat16

madmax wrote: »

I also find in fine home theaters that the sound is way too mechanical, like a super high powered car stereo system. This is due (I think) to pressurizing a smaller room rather than having a large room where the wavelengths can play out rather than pressurizing.
madmax

You got to be kidding me, Max! :eek:

organ

Big thanks for all the input. I think I'm getting it now.
I did some reading and it seems like it's best achieved with high efficiency full range systems like what you guys said. So I learned that smaller less efficient drivers usually have a lot more dynamic compression than high efficiency drivers. Proper room loading is also important and in live situations, there is a lot of reflected sound which contributes to this effect.

So I spent some time playing around with speaker position and I think I found the magic spots where the RT1000p does it to a certain extent, on a smaller scale. This new location is much closer to the front wall. Usually I don't bring speakers that close but it's working out really well now. Bass has improved tremendously. So the volume control on the built in subs are at 25%. I can walk all over the room now and get consistent bass. Also the spots to the left and right of the sweet spot is much better now. The bass is very powerful and this adds to the 'bigness'. Overall, this set up gives me much greater dynamic range, bigger presentation and a 'fullness' to the sound that I couldn't get when they were closer to eachother and farther away from the front wall.
And the best part, this is all driven by a 5w/ch single ended amp! It can go louder than I care to listen to with no distortion so it's good to know there is room for dynamics even at louder listening levels. So far I'm really enjoying this. Thanks again for all the help.

Here's a pic...