Voyger 1 outdistances the solar wind

newrival

I was looking for a previous post I had made so that I wouldn't have to type this all again, but It must be off the server or something. messiah, you look at the world from an over-simplified, and simple point of view so I'll put it to you simply. Do you like having a cell phone? How about GPS? Cable TV? 3G? thank NASA.

Every dollar spent in manned space flight program has produced 7 in the private market. No return on investment? how about essentially creating a trillion dollar industry that directly effects our economy?

It's not just a bunch of people several orders of magnitude more intelligent than you floating around in space; it is that and a whole lot more. So let's list some other insignificant accomplishments that have benefitted all of mankind that wouldnt exist were it not for NASA:

solar panels, breast cancer detection, laser angioplasty, better brake pads for cars, materials for shoes, semiconductors, imaging techniques for illness screening (including cancer), Huge advancements in chemisttry, aeronautics, physics, etc. I really wish I had more time to write this out, but my guess is that it would be lost on you. NASA does all the things you wish it did: help fight cancer, help environmental issues (nvermind the fact that theyre the only reason you know most of them exist in the first place), track enemies, etc.

I'm always astounded when people make such ridiculous statements like yours. I forgive it as ignorance, but I'd really like to see if any of these things change your mind. If not, we know what you are, because ignorance no longer applies.

cnh

I got you. Sorry if I misread. I suppose the problem was your example of TVs was not what I had in mind.

After spending a year in China and watching the enormous amount of money and labor being invested in various projects there....like the MagLev trains (which I've been on and are even better than the Japanese)...I was just lamenting that we're not investing as much as we should into Hi-Tech projects. Or at least it seems like we're not. And that we're relying on more and more from abroad. Not that that's necessarily all bad.

I've always, strangely enough, and to the ire of some of my colleagues...supported 'most' NASA based pure and applied research for reasons mentioned by a number of you above. And also because I was part of that generation hooked on space exploration and Project Apollo, etc.

I think it's a real shame that we've given up on Visionary Goals like that because I agree that the discoveries and manufacturing that were involved in that history improved life on earth by leaps and bounds.

As an aside...I'm a bit crotchety today because my teenage daughter, who is on the Basketball team is home sick for the third time in three weeks. One day each week. And I'm beginning to suspect that she has a bacterial infection that needs attention and my wife is a 1000 miles away for the week.

cnh

bobman1235 wrote: »

I have no problem, my post wasnt' meant to be personal and I'm sorry if it came out that way, though i can't imagine how it would have. My question / statement was exactly what I said.

Something built 33 years ago cannot be compared to something built today, because something built today has not been given the opportunity to last 33 years. And that "somethign" would have to be comparable to a probe sent into deep space for the explicit purpose of lasting forever, rather than compared to something simple like a TV set. TV sets made 33 years ago for the most part are not around today, and even if they were, no one would want them.

(TV sets just being an example that I hear a lot when people complain about "they don't make things like they used to". Satellites don't come up very often)

messiah

newrival wrote: »

I was looking for a previous post I had made so that I wouldn't have to type this all again, but It must be off the server or something. messiah, you look at the world from an over-simplified, and simple point of view so I'll put it to you simply. Do you like having a cell phone? How about GPS? Cable TV? 3G? thank NASA.

Every dollar spent in manned space flight program has produced 7 in the private market. No return on investment? how about essentially creating a trillion dollar industry that directly effects our economy?

It's not just a bunch of people several orders of magnitude more intelligent than you floating around in space; it is that and a whole lot more. So let's list some other insignificant accomplishments that have benefitted all of mankind that wouldnt exist were it not for NASA:

solar panels, breast cancer detection, laser angioplasty, better brake pads for cars, materials for shoes, semiconductors, imaging techniques for illness screening (including cancer), Huge advancements in chemisttry, aeronautics, physics, etc. I really wish I had more time to write this out, but my guess is that it would be lost on you. NASA does all the things you wish it did: help fight cancer, help environmental issues (nvermind the fact that theyre the only reason you know most of them exist in the first place), track enemies, etc.

I'm always astounded when people make such ridiculous statements like yours. I forgive it as ignorance, but I'd really like to see if any of these things change your mind. If not, we know what you are, because ignorance no longer applies.

I'm not against science, or technology, or exploration. I'm against wasteful spending. You can't really have a proper conversation on a forum though. I'll tell you what, I live in Lombard, why don't we get together for a beer and discuss this then. If you still think I'm ignorant after that, you can come back here and tell everyone what a jackass I am. Cool?

newrival

I apologize for the personal attack at the end and perhaps the insinuation in the middle. It does nothing to further the discussion, and only detracts from the message. I went to edit it out, but it said I was too late. I get a little carried away at times

newrival

messiah wrote: »

I'll tell you what, I live in Lombard, why don't we get together for a beer and discuss this then. If you still think I'm ignorant after that, you can come back here and tell everyone what a jackass I am. Cool?

I'll take you up on the beer anytime! :biggrin: My office is in Homer Glen so that should be easy to arrange. Ever been to that Harrison's brewery in Orland?

newrival

cnh wrote: »

I got you. Sorry if I misread. I suppose the problem was your example of TVs was not what I had in mind.

After spending a year in China and watching the enormous amount of money and labor being invested in various projects there....like the MagLev trains (which I've been on and are even better than the Japanese)...I was just lamenting that we're not investing as much as we should into Hi-Tech projects. Or at least it seems like we're not. And that we're relying on more and more from abroad. Not that that's necessarily all bad.

I've always, strangely enough, and to the ire of some of my colleagues...supported 'most' NASA based pure and applied research for reasons mentioned by a number of you above. And also because I was part of that generation hooked on space exploration and Project Apollo, etc.

And hope your daughter recovers quickly. Illnesses are no fun, especially around the holidays (or end of a semester)

I think it's a real shame that we've given up on Visionary Goals like that because I agree that the discoveries and manufacturing that were involved in that history improved life on earth by leaps and bounds.

As an aside...I'm a bit crotchety today because my teenage daughter, who is on the Basketball team is home sick for the third time in three weeks. One day each week. And I'm beginning to suspect that she has a bacterial infection that needs attention and my wife is a 1000 miles away for the week.

cnh

I share many of your sentiments. It's tough to see the US, who led industrial development, fall to other countries. Much the same, to me, is the backing away from manned space flight after we developed and built the entire infrastructure. We built the ladder and now we don't want to climb up it.

messiah

newrival wrote: »

I apologize for the personal attack at the end and perhaps the insinuation in the middle. It does nothing to further the discussion, and only detracts from the message. I went to edit it out, but it said I was too late. I get a little carried away at times

No worries man. I was prepared for hatemail, and I'm actually surprised I didn't get more lol. Like I said, it's not a popular point of view. I don't want NASA cancelled, I just think many programs should be scaled back. It's not worth the time typing all of my thoughts though, I'm pretty sure no one wants to read a couple hundred pages of my opinions on how the government could be run better.

I've never been to that brewery, but would love to check it out some time! Just let me know when a good time would be, and we can grab a brew or 2 :biggrin:

nooshinjohn

messiah wrote: »

No worries man. I was prepared for hatemail, and I'm actually surprised I didn't get more lol. Like I said, it's not a popular point of view. I don't want NASA cancelled, I just think many programs should be scaled back. It's not worth the time typing all of my thoughts though, I'm pretty sure no one wants to read a couple hundred pages of my opinions on how the government could be run better.

I've never been to that brewery, but would love to check it out some time! Just let me know when a good time would be, and we can grab a brew or 2 :biggrin:

This should be exactly the time to expand NASA's budget. Can you imagine the good that can come from all these out of work techies combining their massive talents on a project such as Mars? Better for the planet than paying them to sit home collecting an unemployment check. NASA and the tech they developed led to the economic boom that helped get us out of the resession of the late 50's and early 60's. I think there was a massive tax cut around the same time...

messiah

nooshinjohn wrote: »

This should be exactly the time to expand NASA's budget. Can you imagine the good that can come from all these out of work techies combining their massive talents on a project such as Mars? Better for the planet than paying them to sit home collecting an unemployment check. NASA and the tech they developed led to the economic boom that helped get us out of the resession of the late 50's and early 60's. I think there was a massive tax cut around the same time...

Why Mars John? Why not Earth? I'd be all for tripling the budget for NASA if it wasn't to look at planets that can't sustain life. If Mars could sustain life I'd be all for it!!

nooshinjohn

messiah wrote: »

Why Mars John? Why not Earth? I'd be all for tripling the budget for NASA if it wasn't to look at planets that can't sustain life. If Mars could sustain life I'd be all for it!!

With proper planning, Mars is capable supporting a small colony now. The technologies needed for a Mars trip would fuel the next economic boom in this country. Battery tech/alternative fuels/food storage and growth/healthcare and medicines/fitness/communications/computer tech and applications, not to mention sustainable living and the tech that goes with that. The list is endless. Every facet of human existance would be greatly impacted by such a trip, and the seeds of insiration planted in the souls of the two or three generations that would be involved in getting us there would be immeasurable. The endless wealth of knowlege and inspiration passed down to future generations.... PRICELESS!:cool:

Polkersince85

With all the things that NASA has invented, what did they choose to send the message of Earth to space?

A Record Player and Record



Vinyl: It's so easy, even an Alien could do it.

messiah

nooshinjohn wrote: »

The technologies needed for a Mars trip would fuel the next economic boom in this country. Battery tech/alternative fuels/food storage and growth/healthcare and medicines/fitness/communications/computer tech and applications, not to mention sustainable living and the tech that goes with that. The list is endless. Every facet of human existance would be greatly impacted by such a trip, and the seeds of insiration planted in the souls of the two or three generations that would be involved in getting us there would be immeasurable. The endless wealth of knowlege and inspiration passed down to future generations.... PRICELESS!:cool:

You do know that humans cant really make the trip to mars, right?

nooshinjohn

messiah wrote: »

You do know that humans cant really make the trip to mars, right?

in my best Yoda voice... "And that is why you fail."

Mankind is not only capable of solving the problems of such a trip, many of the requirements have already been met. The will to do it needs to be there, and I would argue that the next great American Renaissance will be possible only if we unleash the full potential of such a journey. If man was to fly, he should have been born with wings they used to say, and now we can outfly the eagles.

The Moon was impossible, but when the will of the American People was brought to bear, we did it in less than ten years. This will be no different, and when we finally have leaders with the balls needed to step up and take this challenge on, we will be there in short order.

newrival

Polkersince85 wrote: »

With all the things that NASA has invented, what did they choose to send the message of Earth to space?

A Record Player and Record



Vinyl: It's so easy, even an Alien could do it.

holy crap. Ive never seen that before. And Im a bit of a space geek. I love it

messiah

nooshinjohn wrote: »

in my best Yoda voice... "And that is why you fail."

Mankind is not only capable of solving the problems of such a trip, many of the requirements have already been met. The will to do it needs to be there, and I would argue that the next great American Renaissance will be possible only if we unleash the full potential of such a journey. If man was to fly, he should have been born with wings they used to say, and now we can outfly the eagles.

The Moon was impossible, but when the will of the American People was brought to bear, we did it in less than ten years. This will be no different, and when we finally have leaders with the balls needed to step up and take this challenge on, we will be there in short order.

You didn't answer the question of why the hell we should go to mars.

A colony for what reason? People **** about the weather here man. Mars sucks, just ask the martians. Technology can be invented without the desire to go to mars.

nooshinjohn

They asked the same question about flight, the Moon and climbing Mount Everest. Because we can. Mars has a wealth of knowlege to pass along to us about how our solar system evolved over time and may hold clues to the fate of our own planet. The reason to go to Mars, or anywhere else within our solar system is to learn about ourselves and what we are truly capable of as individuals, and more importantly, as a species.

Polkersince85

messiah wrote: »

...A colony for what reason? ...

..................................

mrbigbluelight

messiah wrote: »

You didn't answer the question of why the hell we should go to mars.

Because it's there.

We either move forward, or we move backward. There ain't no standing still.

cnh wrote:

I was just lamenting that we're not investing as much as we should into Hi-Tech projects.

We are investing in Hi-Tech projects. In China.

messiah

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

Because it's there.

We either move forward, or we move backward. There ain't no standing still.

Why? If we don't go to mars we are going backwards? Please explain.

We are investing in Hi-Tech projects. In China.

The same China that never went to the moon, right?

mrbigbluelight

messiah wrote: »

Why? If we don't go to mars we are going backwards? Please explain.

It's kind of like a teeter-totter.
Either your side is up, or your rear-end is dragging the ground.

messian wrote:

The same China that never went to the moon, right?

Yes, the same China that's never been to the moon. Yet.

newrival

messiah wrote: »

Why? If we don't go to mars we are going backwards? Please explain.

my reply:

messiah wrote: »

The same China that never went to the moon, right?

http://shanghaiist.com/2010/09/20/china_going_to_the_moon_and_beyond.php

The same China that is trying to get to the moon.

messiah

newrival wrote: »

my reply:







http://shanghaiist.com/2010/09/20/china_going_to_the_moon_and_beyond.php

The same China that is trying to get to the moon.

And what are they going to do when they get to the moon? They are going to come back home to Earth. Wanna know why? The moon sucks. It's either really hot, or really cold, and there aren't any plants or animals. Or water. Or anything useful. It's a big **** dusty rock that looks really cool. It helps our tides, and that's about it. China going to the moon is about as useful as having breast implants put on a tuna salad sandwich.

I'm not sure what the picture means though.

concealer404

messiah wrote: »

China going to the moon is about as useful as having breast implants put on a tuna salad sandwich.

Well, there ARE certain things that make sucky things REALLY AWESOME.

messiah

concealer404 wrote: »

Well, there ARE certain things that make sucky things REALLY AWESOME.

LOL, thanks man :biggrin:

newrival

messiah wrote: »

And what are they going to do when they get to the moon? They are going to come back home to Earth. Wanna know why? The moon sucks. It's either really hot, or really cold, and there aren't any plants or animals. Or water. Or anything useful. It's a big **** dusty rock that looks really cool. It helps our tides, and that's about it. China going to the moon is about as useful as having breast implants put on a tuna salad sandwich.

In Ron Garan's words, the reasons for anyone to go to the moon are: "fulfilling a compelling human need to explore; gaining a foothold on the moon to prepare for journeys to other worlds; easing the world’s energy problems; protecting the planet from disasters; creating moon-based commercial enterprises that will improve life on Earth, conducting scientific research; inspiring young people toward higher education, and utilizing space resources to help spread prosperity throughout the world. "

markmarc

China wants to get to Mars so it can get Helium-3, that from what I understand is key to developing nuclear fusion reactors. China, Russia, and India all see its potential and each of their space programs is based on mining Helium 3. NASA wants us back there by 2020, with a permanent base by 2024.

messiah

newrival wrote: »

In Ron Garan's words, the reasons for anyone to go to the moon are: "fulfilling a compelling human need to explore; gaining a foothold on the moon to prepare for journeys to other worlds; easing the world’s energy problems; protecting the planet from disasters; creating moon-based commercial enterprises that will improve life on Earth, conducting scientific research; inspiring young people toward higher education, and utilizing space resources to help spread prosperity throughout the world. "

Apparently Ron never tried to eat a tuna salad sandwich that had breast implants!!!

fulfilling a compelling human need to explore

Come on Ron, the grand canyon is much closer, much cooler, and doesn't cost 450 million dollars to visit. (this cost is based on what NASA says a trip into space costs the shuttle. I'm sure that the moon trip would cost more, but I don't want to split hairs here.

gaining a foothold on the moon to prepare for journeys to other worlds

What worlds?

easing the world’s energy problems

WTF Ron, how does that work? Easing the worlds energy problems by sending a rocket into space? Whatever dude.

protecting the planet from disasters

Ok, this is actually one of the reasons I see NASA as a benefit. If we can see crap coming at us, and do something about it, that's awesome. However, I don't see what it has to do with the moon. Maybe Ron needs to elaborate.

creating moon-based commercial enterprises that will improve life on Earth

Come on Ron, what are you going to do on the moon that you can't do on earth? I'd hate to pay for shipping. :rolleyes:

inspiring young people toward higher education

Again, WTF Ron? Kids aren't gonna want to go to college if the moon is out of the question? I guess all we have to look forward to is uh... like Hawaii and stuff. I know that warm tropical islands suck compared to a zero oxygen frozen rock, but we all have to make compromises.

and utilizing space resources to help spread prosperity throughout the world

Resources? What resources? I'm sure that the homeless veterans that put their lives on the line for this country, and would like a decent meal really love the idea of space resources. Thanks Ron. For...uh....nothing.


We may never agree man, but lets grab a beer anyway. :biggrin:

tonyb

Well, I would imagine we need to explore other planets or the human species will go the way of the dinosaur and be left to the dustbins of time. We have gained technology from our space programs that benefit all of us. What if early explorers never ventured out because they thought the world was flat ? No benefit to going over the edge,right? What was there to gain ? Obviously alot. I don't look at it as a waste of money but as an investment, a long term one at that.

newrival

a video and some words from Carl Sagan:

the pale blue dot

and the written words of the video.

HBombToo

messiah wrote: »

WTF Ron, how does that work? Easing the worlds energy problems by sending a rocket into space? Whatever dude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium-3

This energy my friend! Mining operations are being considered and cost benefit continues to be very attractive.

Look before you shoot is always a best practice.
HBomb