Raising sub woofer level.....
Comments
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It's really the only way you will know for sure. Theories and opinions don't go very far in this hobby.
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Well, the cinder blocks have been sitting on my porch since my last post. Turns out they were about a half inch shy of what I needed and I do not have room to add a second set. Anybody want some free cinder blocks?
While touring the Southeast US this weekend, I spotted some speaker stands just sitting there unused. I asked if I could use them for this experiment and Jerry was kind enough to send them home with me. They are Target audio stands and they put the subs right where I would imagine would be the best spot, if this little experiment actually works. BTW, these things will break your back. Man, are they heavy.
I'm rewiring some stuff and doing the most precise measuring/angling I have ever done in my life and when I'm done with that, I will offer my observations, if any of you are even interested. God, I love this hobby! :biggrin:~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I'm rewiring some stuff and doing the most precise measuring/angling I have ever done in my life and when I'm done with that, I will offer my observations, if any of you are even interested. God, I love this hobby! :biggrin:
I am personally very interested in this."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Well, the cinder blocks have been sitting on my porch since my last post. Turns out they were about a half inch shy of what I needed and I do not have room to add a second set. Anybody want some free cinder blocks?
While touring the Southeast US this weekend, I spotted some speaker stands just sitting there unused. I asked if I could use them for this experiment and Jerry was kind enough to send them home with me. They are Target audio stands and they put the subs right where I would imagine would be the best spot, if this little experiment actually works. BTW, these things will break your back. Man, are they heavy.
I'm rewiring some stuff and doing the most precise measuring/angling I have ever done in my life and when I'm done with that, I will offer my observations, if any of you are even interested. God, I love this hobby! :biggrin:
Hurry up inquiring minds want to know:biggrin:2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
I'm interested in the result, but I have to admit I hope it's a failure.
I really don't want to have to listen to my wife complain about the sub being at listening level.
My equipment sig felt inadequate and deleted itself. -
Tom, if you only need another half inch....why not just add a square of 1/2" plywood between the blocks?TNRabbit
NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
Sunfire TG-IV
Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
Carver AL-III Speakers
Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer -
I dunno, I guess I could have just for the experiment. I guess I didn't want the sound waves to be able to bounce around beneath the subs giving me a false illusion or impression of bad or good sound. Didn't want any vibrations from the plywood to the cinder blocks either. I am a patient man when it comes to audio and if I was going to try this little experiment, I guess I just wanted to do it up right.
The pic above is what I have for them. It's the smaller of the two which ends up raising the sub levels 23 and 1/2". I'm within 3 inches of the tweeter and I have more spikes and risers that can get the sub parallel to the tweeter itself. I'll just start off with what I have and see how it goes. I'm expecting great results just based upon theory but who knows? It could be a major disappointment. We'll see.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
It may or may not sound better raised off the floor. Whatever the results are, they would be room dependent and will not work the same for everyone else."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Yeah, I guess I should have noted that when I started the thread. Good point. Well, while I'm at it, I should mention that due to my son being born almost two years ago? I lost my listening room. I am now confined to one wall and I do not have the luxury of being able to place the subs in the most beneficial spots around the room anymore.
The best way to describe it would be that I have a 9' triangle from the sides and fronts of both mains to the sweet spot. That's not a lot of breathing room but it's what I have to work with. Good thing the audio rack is only two and a half feet wide. If that weren't the case, I wouldn't have subs at all. It's set up like this....
Main/Sub/Rack/Sub/Main
All of that is within a 9 foot long area. Like I said, not the best of scenarios but it's what I have to work with. For 2 channel without subs? It surprisingly sounds incredible. This experiment is just to find out if my theory will work with what I have. Face is correct, though. Your scenario may yield different results.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Hmmm, initial impressions not that good. I hear potential and at this point I still do not want to introduce the SMS-1. That said, initial impressions are not desirable. Interesting.
Let me tinker a bit and swap some things. After that, I will start a new thread with some questions I have as to not booger this one up. We'll resume then....~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Yeah, I guess I should have noted that when I started the thread. Good point. Well, while I'm at it, I should mention that due to my son being born almost two years ago? I lost my listening room. I am now confined to one wall and I do not have the luxury of being able to place the subs in the most beneficial spots around the room anymore.
The best way to describe it would be that I have a 9' triangle from the sides and fronts of both mains to the sweet spot. That's not a lot of breathing room but it's what I have to work with. Good thing the audio rack is only two and a half feet wide. If that weren't the case, I wouldn't have subs at all. It's set up like this....
Main/Sub/Rack/Sub/Main
All of that is within a 9 foot long area. Like I said, not the best of scenarios but it's what I have to work with. For 2 channel without subs? It surprisingly sounds incredible. This experiment is just to find out if my theory will work with what I have. Face is correct, though. Your scenario may yield different results.
What Tom is trying to say is this
"My room sucks for audio."- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
No, what I'm trying to say is that I hear potential. That said, right now it does not sound natural and my first impressions are not positive. I have no clue as to why but reversing the phase seemed to help with the HT side of things. I have a few things to work on and I'll have a few questions to ask in the near future as well.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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Your room is an audiophiles nightmare man! - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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Wrong. Mine is along with many others out there. Fishbones room is an audiophiles nightmare. Without a doubt.
It is what it is. I seem to recall a certain young man who had his rig in a 10'x10' room not too long ago and he made the best of what he had....~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I honestly did not think my room was -that- bad. It only had a spike at 50hz of about 10 db- other than that it sounded great in there with hardly any effort- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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Fishbones room is an audiophiles nightmare. Without a doubt.
Hey, I resemble that remark. :biggrin:..... ><////(*> -
Yeah, I think once you move rooms your audio experience will improve dramatically. You may want to put a rug down in between you and the speakers to help tame the reflections though. I hope when you get it all up that you will share your observations.
Alright folks, I have been playing around with the system a bit since my last post. One thing I have found out is that the acoustical properties of the subs have changed dramatically. I'm not saying that they are pound your room accurate now or that there is no bass output at all, what I'm saying is that the output is not what it was and that settings on the subs needed to be altered more than slightly to represent its new location.
After playing around, the subs have been set on 25Hz with very little gain, no EQ and the result is exactly what my theory was with a surprise or two thrown into the mix. The sound stage has risen and the music sounds as if it's coming directly from the proper height. It amazes me how just a small change like this can improve what it is that I'm hearing.
Kick drums have the realism that words can't really describe and they are no longer coming from below the sound stage. They sound like they are coming from behind, in front of and beside the mains. Cool. This changes a lot about the reproduction and for some reason, the spatial location cues are easier to find and pinpoint. Not only where the subs and mains blend but on the mids and upper range of the frequencies as well. That was a pleasant surprise and completely unexpected.
There is absolutely no boom at the bottom whatsoever and it seems as if there is an ever so slight.....oh, how do you say it.....quicker attack on the bass. My description may be a little off but I guess what I'm trying to say is that the timing of when the drivers frequency response hitting your ears are not detectable as they were before. The difference is slight but definitely noticeable which is why I said the attack seems quicker. I guess it's due to the timing as to when it hits my ears has been improved. It just sounds tighter.
Gonna be tweaking a little bit more and in the coming days I'm quite sure that I will find what is is that I'm looking for. Just moving the subs in or out a 1/2 an inch can change the frequencies and sound stage more than I would like but I'm getting close. There has been a huge change from when I first hooked them up on the stands.
Listening to the Eagles "Last Good Time in Town" off the Long Road out of Eden album as I type this and the kick drum sounds the best it ever has using a sub. Sounds surprisingly well for a reproduction, it is tight, authoritative, pure and even without the SMS-1, blends well with the mains with absolutely no boom at the bottom.
Even at this point, I can say that this little experiment was a complete success. Big change from my initial impressions, huh? I'm thinking I can improve things a bit and hopefully I'm right but I can say this. The end result as to what's hitting my ears right now tells me that they aren't going back on the floor. More later as I [hopefully] progress on things.....~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Long shot here....did you try reversing the phases of the sub on the plate amps? The 0 degree-180 degree switch?There is absolutely no boom at the bottom whatsoever and it seems as if there is an ever so slight.....oh, how do you say it.....quicker attack on the bass.
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They are currently reversed. It sounded better in HT that way and I have yet to switch them back. It is very linear in frequency response right now. Come on down if you'd like to hear it! Very enjoyable and musical.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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I can dig it!
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Hmmm, swapped them back to normal and the rig is TIGHT now. This disputes that of what we were just talking about on the phone, Russ. The slight lobing I had mentioned just disappeared. *poof* Gone. Still playing with the frequency, had to lower it yet again with changing the phase as it got a little overpowering but with lowering the frequency, along with the volume? Man, I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the music for a while.
I can't believe it, even without the sub hooked up to the SMS-1, I can not detect where they are. Period. Sweet tittie!!!!
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Have you ever tried using an isolation platform? I'm not sure I'm convinced elevating a sub would yield considerable gains. However, coupling or decoupling a sub to the floor is a whole different story. I've actually read acoustic articles attributing that a sub near to the floor or the ceiling is best in a room, something to do with room interactions.
Can't you set the phase and volume with the SMS-1?2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
Have you ever tried using an isolation platform? I'm not sure I'm convinced elevating a sub would yield considerable gains. However, coupling or decoupling a sub to the floor is a whole different story. I've actually read acoustic articles attributing that a sub near to the floor or the ceiling is best in a room, something to do with room interactions.
Can't you set the phase and volume with the SMS-1?
Its true most put a sub in a corner to get a increase of ~3db in room gain. However someone like me in an apartment is very interested in this as hopefully it will allow me to decouple the sub via my Auralex platform while raising the height and as a result be able to listen to the sub louder as it wont transfer to the wall as well (or that is my hope)"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Hello, aboroth00. I haven't even listened to the subs with the SMS-1 hooked up yet. I would not doubt that the SMS-1 will do both, however it's been a while since I've used it and I can only confirm that it will do the volume. Haven't used the SMS-1 since the VMPS was in the house. At this point, I don't really believe that the SMS-1 will be reintroduced into the rig. It just sounds so good right now.
As far as the isolation platform goes, it has been on my radar for things to look at and/or try out in the rig but to be honest with you, it's off the radar now. Just to let you know, I have two subs that both have front drivers and a rear port. No down firing passive radiators or any other drivers. The stands have spikes that have been adjusted to perfect levelness and they weigh a considerable amount. Once you put the sub on a stand, the total weight would be close to 200 lbs per sub/stand. Both mains are also on spikes and there is very little transfer at all levels. You can definitely feel the sound pressure levels when you crank it up but that's in your chest and not transferred through the floor.I'm not sure I'm convinced elevating a sub would yield considerable gains. However, coupling or decoupling a sub to the floor is a whole different story. I've actually read acoustic articles attributing that a sub near to the floor or the ceiling is best in a room, something to do with room interactions.
I most definitely am. First off, the sound stage is at the proper height. You can not tell where the subs are and the drums and lower frequencies are no longer below that rest of the playing field. Secondly, and I was very surprised at this, the spatial location cues are further defined. The stereo effect with not only the lower registers but with all frequencies have been enhanced and the subs are now transparent. You can not tell that they are on, nor can you tell where they are at. Even at higher volume levels.
As far as the articles go, I can not comment. They might have been using different gear, a down firing woofer, a multiple driver sub, I don't know. What I do know is that with this gear, in this room, with the way I have it set up? The subs on the floor had me thinking that I wanted to change the sub amps, sell the subs, introduce 1 or 2 SMS-1's or just lose the thought of having subs altogether as my mains do the music justice without them. With the subs at the height they are at now? All of the gripes I had with the subs disappeared and the imaging and sound stage has become stellar. The integration between the subs and the mains is as if I was using the SMS-1.
That said, it is quite obvious that the articles that have been written on the subject are not the same as what I'm experiencing in my living room as we speak. If anybody has a similar setup to mine, what are you waiting for? This will rise you to your next level along your audio journey. As Face had mentioned, your results may vary and this is all room/gear dependent but it's definitely worth a shot in my book.
Though my first impressions of this experiment were undesirable, I am excited now to be able to enjoy my rig as never before. Damn, this sounds good!~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Let's see a pic of how it looks now.
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Pics will be in the AM tomorrow. Gotta start cooking for today's race, saving plenty of time to sneak in a brewski or twelve. ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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Hello, aboroth00. I haven't even listened to the subs with the SMS-1 hooked up yet. I would not doubt that the SMS-1 will do both, however it's been a while since I've used it and I can only confirm that it will do the volume. Haven't used the SMS-1 since the VMPS was in the house. At this point, I don't really believe that the SMS-1 will be reintroduced into the rig. It just sounds so good right now.
As far as the isolation platform goes, it has been on my radar for things to look at and/or try out in the rig but to be honest with you, it's off the radar now. Just to let you know, I have two subs that both have front drivers and a rear port. No down firing passive radiators or any other drivers. The stands have spikes that have been adjusted to perfect levelness and they weigh a considerable amount. Once you put the sub on a stand, the total weight would be close to 200 lbs per sub/stand. Both mains are also on spikes and there is very little transfer at all levels. You can definitely feel the sound pressure levels when you crank it up but that's in your chest and not transferred through the floor.
I most definitely am. First off, the sound stage is at the proper height. You can not tell where the subs are and the drums and lower frequencies are no longer below that rest of the playing field. Secondly, and I was very surprised at this, the spatial location cues are further defined. The stereo effect with not only the lower registers but with all frequencies have been enhanced and the subs are now transparent. You can not tell that they are on, nor can you tell where they are at. Even at higher volume levels.
As far as the articles go, I can not comment. They might have been using different gear, a down firing woofer, a multiple driver sub, I don't know. What I do know is that with this gear, in this room, with the way I have it set up? The subs on the floor had me thinking that I wanted to change the sub amps, sell the subs, introduce 1 or 2 SMS-1's or just lose the thought of having subs altogether as my mains do the music justice without them. With the subs at the height they are at now? All of the gripes I had with the subs disappeared and the imaging and sound stage has become stellar. The integration between the subs and the mains is as if I was using the SMS-1.
That said, it is quite obvious that the articles that have been written on the subject are not the same as what I'm experiencing in my living room as we speak. If anybody has a similar setup to mine, what are you waiting for? This will rise you to your next level along your audio journey. As Face had mentioned, your results may vary and this is all room/gear dependent but it's definitely worth a shot in my book.
Though my first impressions of this experiment were undesirable, I am excited now to be able to enjoy my rig as never before. Damn, this sounds good!
The article I was referring to was actually an acoustics article, but I can't come up with it now, so it just might be my imagination.
I have owned the SMS-1 and it does correct phase as well as volume. It's suite of adjustments is quite heavy so it doesn't really slack with basic adjustments.
However I must say I'm unconvinced of the physical location of the sub in the case of raising it off the floor making such a significant difference. I have all my subs on isolation risers and I can say that it has definitely tightened things up as you had mentioned. As for raising the stereo image, I doubt that it'll do that especially when my subs are tuned to roll in at around 50hz. I doubt that this would change the stereo image of the music especially on bass' omnidirectional character. In this case, I don't think a downfiring sub or a multidriver sub would make a difference.
But I think you hit the nose on using stands and spikes on the subs directly COUPLING them to the floor thus ALL vibrations are going through the floor. Spikes couple and not decouple which is the opposite of an isolation platform. I had the problem of vibrations and muddy bass as well and chose to go a different route. But I hear people get different results using spikes to great effect. Muddy bass can certainly affect the rest of the experience as you have mentioned. Both isolation risers as well as spikes I believe are great assets for cleaning up muddy bass depending on the problem, the room and the foundation the room is on. Something definitely to check out.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
I was reluctant but optimistic when I first tried this. Now that I have had some time to sit down and listen to many recordings, there actually is a significant difference. Take, for example Little Feat's Waiting for Columbus' album. Song 7, 4 minutes and 20 seconds into the song. What once was a L to R drum roll, is now a drum set sitting in front of you. You can locate each and every drum, as you would a singer or guitarist. It reproduces the stage so well that you can literally point your finger at the exact location each drum is positioned at. That said, the individual drums are not where the speakers or subs are. Both the speakers and the subs become transparent and when the drummer does the final drum roll in that section of the song, the reproduction is surreal.aboroth00 wrote:However I must say I'm unconvinced of the physical location of the sub in the case of raising it off the floor making such a significant difference. I have all my subs on isolation risers and I can say that it has definitely tightened things up as you had mentioned. As for raising the stereo image, I doubt that it'll do that especially when my subs are tuned to roll in at around 50hz. I doubt that this would change the stereo image of the music especially on bass' omnidirectional character. In this case, I don't think a downfiring sub or a multidriver sub would make a difference.
I had no idea that a system could do that, as I had never experienced it before. I had mentioned in my first post that I thought the "fact" that bass was non directional was hog wash. What I have experienced in my own living room dispelled that fact. It turns out the bass and mid bass can be just as directional as the mids and top end. Especially on a well recorded album.
My subs are currently set at 30Hz and are set at a very low volume. When listening at reasonable levels, the sound stage and imaging has been easier to pinpoint. The best way I could describe as to why would be that instead of the lower registers being broadcast at or near the floor, they are currently at ear level with the subs and between 1 and 2 feet up off the floor on the mains. They are the same Seas drivers in both, however they are different sizes.
Since the lower registers are now at ear height, the bass fills in around you just as much as the mids and top end does. It envelops you and is no longer just L and R in stereo. It blends in better with all of the other frequencies and offers you a sound stage that's transparent. At least in my rig, that is the case.
Every once in a while, I will test myself to see if what I am relaying to you is correct. Here's what I do. I sit down in the sweet spot and close my eyes. I find the precise spot to where everything gets transparent and proceed to shake my head violently a couple of times in order to disorientate me from the exact location of the speakers. Without opening my eyes, I try to pinpoint where both of the mains are. Every daggum time I try this, I am outside of the mains anywhere between a foot to up to 2 and a half feet. I have yet to end up pointing directly at the mains. When the subs were on the floor, I could point to the mains every damned time and I wouldn't be more than 3 to 4 inches off the center of the speaker.
As far as the [to me] useless debate of whether or not I am coupling or decoupling the subs and mains to the floor, I could care less. All I know is that I do NOT like the mains or the subs without the spikes in. The whole experience is not enjoyable, becomes bloated, jumbled, boomy and overpondering on the lower registers. On my rig, the way it is currently set up and at reasonable levels, there is not one ounce of boom or unwanted artifacts concerning the bass and you can hear every single frequency equally and precisely. It's the most musical rig I have built to date. I have spent more time in the listening chair lately than I really want to admit. If I keep this up, my wife will start considering herself a widow who lost her husband to high fidelity.aboroth00 wrote:But I think you hit the nose on using stands and spikes on the subs directly COUPLING them to the floor thus ALL vibrations are going through the floor. Spikes couple and not decouple which is the opposite of an isolation platform. I had the problem of vibrations and muddy bass as well and chose to go a different route. But I hear people get different results using spikes to great effect. Muddy bass can certainly affect the rest of the experience as you have mentioned. Both isolation risers as well as spikes I believe are great assets for cleaning up muddy bass depending on the problem, the room and the foundation the room is on. Something definitely to check out.
Try it if you have the means. Your situation may be completely different than mine as there are way too many variables to consider. I will tell you this though. I would have never known what I know now if I didn't sit there one evening and ponder the thought expressed in the first post of this thread and decided to give it a whirl. I didn't have anything to lose and either should any of you who are wondering as I did 6 months ago.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
One further note; this is all recording dependent. I slapped in Rush's YYZ and Zanadu last night and it was actually a horrible recording of a drum set. Left to right, yes. No imaging with the lower regions or the drums whatsoever. Turned out to be a completely ho-hum recording/reproduction of some kickin' music.
This morning, I am listening to an album I haven't spent time listening to in years. It's Pink Floyd's "Delicate Sound of Thunder" CD that was recorded live. When the song "Time" came on, I was done with the casual listening [doing some house work] and I sat down for some sweet spot time just as this song was coming on. Good timing because the things that I have described before came back in a beautiful way.
After the clocks stopped ticking, chiming and what have you....their is some kind of drummer that gets out and plays. They sound like some sort of Indian drum or something [not to good at naming individual instruments, sorry] and there's more than one. Once again, they come from outside of both speakers and every time one is struck, you could point a laser at the location each one was at as they were being struck. You could easily tell that some of the drums were closer and some were further away [the ones in the middle were closer]. The entire set is located slightly to the left on the sound stage.
It just raises the bar with the enjoyment I am receiving out of my rig. Not with all of the albums I listen too but when it happens, having the drums and other instruments be as pinpoint as the rest of the imaging and sound stage is a wonderful addition to the rig. To be honest, I never knew it even existed [or could exist] until I tried this little experiment. I have not heard any other rig do this before.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
OK, the true test of my set up? Burmester's Yim Hok-Man, "Poet of Chinese Drums"
Goose bumps for sure. I would offer a standing ovation but I can not stand at this point. OutF'nstanding!!! Words can not describe! I'll just leave it at that...........words can not describe.
Wow!~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
