Will Lsi9s continue to benefit from more power (over 200 wpc)?

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

If I were running Lsi9's I would use at least 200wrms @ 8ohms--with high current (45-60amps) capability. These speakers need power to breathe, IMO.

Well yes and no, I ran LSi 15's with a 30wpc Pass Aleph 30 and it did an outstanding job but it will never be an SPL champion. Granted the 9's might be a tad more difficult to drive at certain freq's but I've tried the Aleph on some more difficult floor standers 87dB and 4ohm and it did an excellent job. You need a high quality amp but not necessarily 200wpc, IMO and experience. Unless you want to get stupid loud.

H9

Face

The 15's sounded excellent on a 20wpc tube amp too, the 200wpc thing is a load of crap.

Norm Apter

Face wrote: »

The 15's sounded excellent on a 20wpc tube amp too, the 200wpc thing is a load of crap.

Face, if I'm not mistaken you've had a lot of experience with the Lsi line (I remember a thread or two in which you discuss the upgrades you've done to 9s and others).

Have you tried any particular SS amps that struck your fancy (with Lsi's) that I might add to the pool of those under consideration?

Norm Apter

jinjuku wrote: »

Would you ever consider spending that $2K on speakers? Or are your Modded 9's hitting your audio nirvana sweet spot?

Yes and yes.

In an audio world where everything could be subject to questioning and doubt, I've kind of decided that for the short- and medium-term, I want the modded 9s to be the foundation of my 2 channel rig going forward. I do enjoy music with them much more than when they were in their stock condition (they sounded excellent before, but they're more engaging now).

Way down the road (perhaps a few years) when I head up toward something else speaker-wise, I envision it being something of a big and bold move upward...a floorstander on the order of the Quad 988 electrostatic speakers or something in that range.

Thus for the short- and medium-term I just want to milk these speakers for whatever I can get out of them. A few people brought up some other ideas which I will definately pursue (quality speaker stands and room treatments), but I thought I'd check in the amp department just to see if anything could be improved via that route as well. As for the budget, I was originally hoping to be around the $1500 mark (which includes what I could get from selling the A23) but I threw 2k out there as a max. just to open any options that might be available for something between those two figures.

heiney9

Face wrote: »

the 200wpc thing is a load of crap.

I tried to say that more delicately, but yes it is a load of crap as it's always been quality over quantity.

H9

Face

When I had 9's and 15's here, they were powered by an older Pass design, a McIntosh 7270(300wpc:rolleyes:), a Manley Stingray, and I'm not sure what else. The Stingray was preferred by me and everyone else who heard them here. I would love to hear them again with the ICE amps I have here now(Wyred 4 Sound).

steveinaz

There is quality and quantity readily available. It's about attaining realistic scale, and having the peak reserves available without riding on the amps ragged edge.

Sorry, but I disagree. I've heard too many of my own systems "open up" when more power (or bridging) was available to power hungry/low impedance speakers.

Can someone please give me an example of an amp that has too much power?

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

There is quality and quantity readily available. It's about attaining realistic scale, and having the peak reserves available without riding on the amps ragged edge.

Sorry, but I disagree. I've heard too many of my own systems "open up" when more power (or bridging) was available to power hungry/low impedance speakers.

We can agree to disagree because there are only a few amps out there that truly fit my analogy. In my travels with the 30wpc Aleph I have compared a lot of high power amps from Sunfire, Adcom, Carver, BAT, Emotiva, Marsh and others that escape me right now, and in the end they didn't do anything better than the Aleph with the exception of reaching ear bleeding SPL's.

I use the Alpeh a lot in my examples because I put off buying one for over a year because I had the same mindset many here have..........no way can 30wpc ever power a difficult speaker with the kind of dynamics and scale of much more powerful (on paper) amps.

I was WRONG..........dead WRONG and the amp when I first put it in my rig blew me away and continues to blow me away. Is it the end all be all of amps, not really. If you are driving speakers like Ted has or in a huge room with vaulted ceilings it won't give you quite the drive you need because it can run out of steam. I have only noticed one instance where it was run to the ragged edge and that was well beyond loud on a pair of LSi 15's.

But in a medium to largish room with a speaker like SDA's or LSi's or even my brother's Revel Performa F50's it has more than enough for any need beyond ear bleeding levels than one would ever need.

Some excerpts from a review that finally convinced me to buy the Aleph.

Let me start with traditional solid-state virtues; namely, bass drive, resolution, and macrodynamics. There was absolutely no hesitation or stall while revving up its output stage to negotiate loud passages. This sensation of instantaneous power, a hallmark of upper echelon solid-state amplifiers, was present in spades. In fact, the change in "RPM", from low to high level was linear with no perception of any compression. Take, for example, the following live recording of the Milt Jackson Quintet with Ray Brown (That's the Way it is: MCA/Impulse! MCAD-33112). I'm always amused by the cautionary note that accompanies the AAD designation on the back cover: "This compact disc contains programs transferred from analog tape and therefore may contain some tape hiss and other anomalies that exist with analog recording." I suppose that by 'anomalies' they might be referring to a couple of spots where Jackson's vibes overload the tape recorder. When this happens, the startle factor with the Aleph 30 is very high as the transient hits the proverbial brick wall.

There is no place where resolution becomes a bigger issue than with reproduction of a piano. The challenge is that piano sound is quite detailed or crisp due to its percussive nature, yet its tone is often capable of great lyricism. These two opposing aspects - the beauty and the beast - must be kept in balance during both the recording process as well as the playback. Otherwise, the nature of the performance is adulterated. Solid-state typically errs toward a crisper picture of the real thing, while tubes often soften (liquefy) and dull the full transient impact of piano sound. The Aleph 30 manages to walk a fine line, in that it is able to retrieve transient nuances without sounding bright or etched in the process. This is one smooth cat!

Bass impact and definition were superlative. My impression was that the Aleph was pushing bass lines to the limit allowed by the loudspeaker. This was a complete package. The bass range was tightly integrated with exceptional body and pitch definition. The last thing I look forward to in an amplifier is an anemic upper bass or lower midrange. For someone like me who's enamored with the majesty of a double bass or cello, the fundamental and first harmonic must be served up correctly - or there's hell to pay.

This is really the essence of this amp and exactly how I would describe it..............................and it's only a mere 30wpc!

H9

steveinaz

and if your Aleph was available with more power, and within your price range? Would your speakers benefit from that?

You can't compare a 125 watt Parasound (as an example) to a 30 watt Aleph. The Aleph is leaps in quality/engineering. The OP asked a general question, to which he got a general asnwer. All things being equal (sans output of course) a more powerful amp NEVER hurts, and quite often helps. Now brand x vs brand y is a totally different topic.

steveinaz

In Norms case, I think the move to the A21 would be both smart and very satisfying. In fact, Norm, if you buy the A21 and find I'm wrong--I'll buy it from you at what you paid for it, plus shipping to me.

I talk the talk, and I walk the walk.

jinjuku

Norm Apter wrote: »

Yes and yes.

In an audio world where everything could be subject to questioning and doubt, I've kind of decided that for the short- and medium-term, I want the modded 9s to be the foundation of my 2 channel rig going forward. I do enjoy music with them much more than when they were in their stock condition (they sounded excellent before, but they're more engaging now).

Oh, we would never get along :biggrin:. I have about 4 other speaker build projects I would like to do while keeping the same electronics stack... lol.

Good luck in your next tweak.

jinjuku

steveinaz wrote: »

In Norms case, I think the move to the A21 would be both smart and very satisfying. In fact, Norm, if you buy the A21 and find I'm wrong--I'll buy it from you at what you paid for it, plus shipping to me.

I talk the talk, and I walk the walk.

Hey Norm, I'll work up a fictional bill a sale for you. So how much did you pay for that A21?

I don't think you'll find any foundational difference other than maybe another 3dB.

steveinaz

Put the calculator away professor, and listen to the music.

reeltrouble1

your LSi 9 will benefit from quality electronics, I don't think you have quite reached their full potential but dig how your working towards it.

mine sounded best with the stingray.....you might consider bat, pass, CJ, if you are looking for a ss SQ jump.

different level.

RT1

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

and if your Aleph was available with more power, and within your price range? Would your speakers benefit from that?

You can't compare a 125 watt Parasound (as an example) to a 30 watt Aleph. The Aleph is leaps in quality/engineering. The OP asked a general question, to which he got a general asnwer. All things being equal (sans output of course) a more powerful amp NEVER hurts, and quite often helps. Now brand x vs brand y is a totally different topic.

I have comtemplated getting a pair of Aleph 60's but honestly it's not necessary. My only comment to Norm was don't buy the same quality/design amp just because it's more power. In this case a 100 wpc Parasound and moving to a 200 wpc Parasound like he was thinking of doing won't make a difference.

In fact today Steve if I was going to buy a different amp I'd buy a Pass Labs XA30.5. 30wpc single ended class A which is essentially the next evolution of the Aleph 30 which benefits from the X series architecture. It marry's the Aleph and X series in one package. I have no need for more watts.

I have come close fo just saying WTH and getting a used XA30.5 but they still get $3200-3500 used and that's really more than I want to spend at the moment.

H9

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

In Norms case, I think the move to the A21 would be both smart and very satisfying. In fact, Norm, if you buy the A21 and find I'm wrong--I'll buy it from you at what you paid for it, plus shipping to me.

I talk the talk, and I walk the walk.

I don't think it will make much of a difference. He needs to move up the audio chain, not just add more power.

H9

steveinaz

Pass is a product I'd love to own (power amp), but way out of my reach.

reeltrouble1

well there you go, norm can get the pass, if it does not make his pants go crazy you can buy it......perfect.

is the 21 just more watts or are there other changes......never heard a parasound I did not like......Maybe a JC2 and a pair of their big boy monblocks....that rig would sing.

RT1

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

Pass is a product I'd love to own (power amp), but way out of my reach.

I used to think that too Steve, but for a few hundred more and a few sacrafices here and there I own one and I will own another in the near future. Of course I'm speaking a nice clean used model.

H9

heiney9

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Maybe a JC2 and a pair of their big boy monblocks....that rig would sing.

RT1

Now that's going up the chain within the same manufacturer . That's what I mean about going up the chain.

H9

steveinaz

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

well there you go, norm can get the pass, if it does not make his pants go crazy you can buy it......perfect.

is the 21 just more watts or are there other changes......never heard a parasound I did not like......Maybe a JC2 and a pair of their big boy monblocks....that rig would sing.

RT1

A21

60 amp (vs 45 amps for the A23)
Larger Power supply transformer (1.2kv vs 1kv for the A23)
100,000 uF power supply input capacitance (vs 48,000 uF in the A23)
16 output transistors (vs 12 in the A23)

Everything else looks similar. Both now use JFET/MOSFET stages

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

A21

60 amp (vs 45 amps for the A23)
Larger Power supply transformer (1.2kv vs 1kv for the A23)
100,000 uF power supply input capacitance (vs 48,000 uF in the A23)
16 output transistors (vs 12 in the A23)

Everything else looks similar. Both now use JFET/MOSFET stages

Very little difference except the capacitance. I am surprised the A23 only has 48,000 uF. The extra capacitance of the A21 is a plus, but not enough to make me jump on it if I already owned the A23. The Aleph has 120,000 uF so I guess watts doesn't equal filter capacitance. I always thought 120,000 uF was on the high side for a 30wpc amp and only 6 Mosfets per channel. But a completely different topology compared to a typical A/B; push/pull amp.

Sometimes you just have to take the leap Norm, some leaps will be extremely rewarding others less so.

Most of all have fun and enjoy the hobby and the music.

H9

polkfarmboy

heiney9 wrote: »

P.s. I'll also put my endorsement in for the lastest generation Monarchy SM70 pro mono's. You can get them much less than retail when you call or email Monarhcy directly.

I think I may have found my next amp:biggrin:

I would never have believed that 30 watts could slam hard until I bought some tubes

heiney9

The Monarchy SM70's were my 2nd choice behind the Aleph 30. My brother owned those for awhile and now a good friend of ours owns them and they are very nice sounding, dynamic amps that are really designed to run mono rather than stereo, but they can be run in stereo just not balanced. They are fully balanced when they are used as mono's.

H9

reeltrouble1

Looking at those specs the 21 offers a nice upgrade. 15 amps pk2pk is nothing to sneeze at. Double storage.....looks good to me as far specs.......I would think you would need to start look at seperate supplies, discreet channels, and so on for the next step up beyond this. Does the parasound use oil-filled capacitors and metal film type resistors? Number of gain stages.....something to consider.

RT1

steveinaz

I don't have a clue Ted, I pulled those specs from the parasound website.

heiney9

Absolutely fascinating 6Moons review and description of about 6-8 higher end amps. The listener goes into great detail about the different nuances of how these amps sound. It's not at all about declaring a winner, but give a great insight about how different amps, sound different.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt11/m2_3.html

Should be right up your alley Norm as far as a research piece.

H9

Jetmaker737

This is a great thread! I'm learning a lot... keep it up guys!

dorokusai

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

well, Matt Polk was using Threshold mono-blocks 1000 watts each, they sang nicely along with a tubed pre, as always though not really just about the wattage.....power supply design, number of gain stages, zero or if present how is negative feedback used, type of capacitor, number used, size used, balanced circuit, type of resistor, discreet circuits, no doubt though your looking at alot of amplifier.

RT1

For me the power issue blooms when you reach the loudspeakers threshold to wit the amplifier or whatever becomes the main signature since it's not the driver anymore....this is when synergy comes into play. It's not difficult but it is sensitive to changes within the chain.

We all have odd thoughts as to why something sounds good, who gives a F? Just dial it in like you should and then get introspecitive. The tweaks you will or won't do, simply don't change the world and if kept in reality, won't empty your pocketbook. Some of us like to trip the light fantastic...is that so wrong?