Tube vs Solid state for SDAs

dpowell

I have an Anthem Amp 1 and Anthem Pre 2L both with stock tubes powering modded SDA 1C's. I've been satisfied with the sound for the most part but today, I had the opportunity to hear them powered with Norm Apter's Parasound Halo SS pre/power amp and discovered that I'm missing a lot of detail in the music. I also had the opportunity to hear the tube amps power Norm's modded LSi9's and was disappointed to hear the LSi's become muddy sounding when switching from the parasound to Anthem gear. It seemed that the tube gear added some warmth and width to the soundstage but gave up a LOT of detail in doing so. The Parasounds brought out a lot of detail but lacked some of the warmth I enjoy from the tube amp.

I'm looking for opinions on what can be done to find a better blend of detail and warmth. I've tried rolling in some Ei EL34s but that actually made the problem worse (even after 100+ hours of burn-in). I'm tempted to try the Treasure tubes but am really wondering if it is worth the investment.

Could I possibly be better off getting some better tubes in the preamp and using a SS poweramp?

I welcome suggestions.

ben62670

I really like the diy tube pre with the modded GFA565's running my custom SDA's. Sweet and solid.

george daniel

wow,,my 1C's were powered by an Anthemp amp1,,and I never had the issue you described,,,lets see,,what kinda tubes are you using in the pre?My Anthem had winged"C"'s in it,,and I did upgrade the caps,,but I cannot figure out the "muddy" issue,,I'm guessing tubes maybe,,good luck,let us know what you find.BTW,,what kind of tubes are you running (input) in the Anthem.

I just re-read your post-- I'm guessing that a tube upgrade might be in order.If you decide to loose the Anthem,,I would be interested,,but I think that you should seriously consider the caps and some tubes,,Svetlana Winged "C"'s,,or some NOS Tesla's from Mike Sanders @ Quicksilver

dpowell

All 7 tubes in the Amp1 and the 4 tubes in the Pre are original stock EH tubes. I'm not saying they sound bad on the SDA's. In fact, if I'd never heard the Parasounds, I would have continued on thinking they sounded excellent. I just know now that the highs are being muted. It is especially notable on cymbals, high hat, etc.

dpowell

george daniel wrote: »

I just re-read your post-- I'm guessing that a tube upgrade might be in order.If you decide to loose the Anthem,,I would be interested,,but I think that you should seriously consider the caps and some tubes,,Svetlana Winged "C"'s,,or some NOS Tesla's from Mike Sanders @ Quicksilver

I'm curious which tubes should be upgraded? In the Amp1 there's a single tube (I believe the first input stage) then a pair of tubes followed by the 4 EL34 power tubes. The Pre2l uses 4 x 6922's.

Also, what Caps did you upgrade to? I was actually considering upgrading the Amp1 to Sonicaps or Mundorfs.

george daniel

Okay-- you need some tubes,,,especially if they are the originals.For power tubes,try Winged"C",,Mullard NOS XF2 (if you can afford them),,or some of the old Tesla(Chek made),, a nice Amperex or Tele 12ax7,,and some RCA au7 blackplates,,and re-tube the pre,,Jim McShane can hook you up with what you need,,just let him know what kind of sound/detail you are looking for,,and upgrade those caps behind/beside the output tubes,,4 of them IRRC,,a nice PIO cap will be fine.

george daniel

dpowell wrote: »

I'm curious which tubes should be upgraded? In the Amp1 there's a single tube (I believe the first input stage) then a pair of tubes followed by the 4 EL34 power tubes. The Pre2l uses 4 x 6922's.

Also, what Caps did you upgrade to? I was actually considering upgrading the Amp1 to Sonicaps or Mundorfs.

I used the Jensen copper PIO caps,,or you could go with the VH Audio PIO's,,some like the Mundorf's,,if you go with them I would suggest the top of the line Gold/Silver oiler.

george daniel

something along this line

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1293158385&/Anthem-Amp-1SE-upgraded-by-par

BTW-- I think thsmith has the schematics for the amp one if you need them,you might wanna shoot him a pm.Selling my Anthem was one of my biggest regrets.I have since learned that it the right hands,,it is a giant killer,when properly modded,,don't overlook the PS either.

headrott

Get some siemens e88cc's. The ones with gray shields from the early 1960's. They have very nice tones and detail and will help with the pre at least.

Greg

heiney9

With well built tube gear it's in the tubes. They make a huge difference and to be honest the older the better. I really don't care for any new production tubes. It can get pricey fast if you need a lot of tubes, but go in all the way or don't go.

For an EL34 the SED Winged "C" are pretty nice, but Mullards would be better. I personally won't spend Mullard money for EL34's for my secondary rig. If it was my main rig then I would. I also use 3 different tube integrateds in my office rig and I have a plethora of tubes for each so I steer clear of the Mullards simply because I have so much $$$ in tubes for those 3 rigs already, not to mention the tubes for my pre-amp in the main rig. I have spent 2-3 times the cost of the tube gear on tubes for the tube gear.

H9

hearingimpared

I use a hybrid integrated amp with the preamp stage tubes and it sounds glorious on my 1.2 TLs and also on a pair of 2.3TLs at Jesse's. However, I've also heard tubed pre and amps on SDA's and it was nothing short of breath taking and the bass, oh the bass.

HB27

IF it were my rig and what you described I'd replace the Preamp tubes with some Amperex, Mullards, or Tele's. I also have some of the early Siemans I like very well.
From what I see in your system I'd be replacing the 6922 EH immediately. That appears to be the weakness I see in your system.
You'll find a remarkable improvement in the pre tube switch alone.
Your Anthem and 1Cs are a great match. THE EH TUBES ARE THE WEAK LINK. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

george daniel

Well-- I think that it's settled--tube time.

punk-roc

george daniel wrote: »

well-- i think that it's unamious--tube time.

double true!

thsmith

I have both Anthem amp and pre as you although not being used at this time.

Here is what I found in tubes I liked best. Never any issues with detail.

Anthem Amp 1
Ei 6ca7 or Wing C EL-34
12AX7 - Sylvania black plate 3 mice 5751
12AU7 - RCA clear tops or Mullard CV4003

Anthem Pre2L
Amperex E188CC on one side and Amperex E88CC on the other side

george daniel

Tracy,, what mods/upgrades did you have performed on your amp?

thsmith

George I did not do any. It had already had Mundorf M Supremes I think. I will need to look other wise stock. I had Mundorf Silver oils in the pre but they were moved to the Wright otherwise it is stock.

george daniel

to the OP-- I think that caps in the amp,(4) are in order and tube evaluation/replacement,,then if you are still not happy,I'll buy the Amp 1 from you.

dpowell

Thanks all for some great advice. My Amp1 came with a quad of Mullards but one of them went bad and fried a resistor in the amp before I modded the SDA X-overs so I don't have a good point of reference to compare them to the stock tubes.

Where do you buy your tubes?

george daniel

dpowell wrote: »

Thanks all for some great advice. My Amp1 came with a quad of Mullards but one of them went bad and fried a resistor in the amp before I modded the SDA X-overs so I don't have a good point of reference to compare them to the stock tubes.

Where do you buy your tubes?

Try this guy--he tests/matches the tubes under an actual load(as in your amp),he also stands behind his products,,and if you ever have a tube go south,,he'll follow up with you--keep the boxes though(they have data on them)

jimmcshane@prodigy.net

Reasonably priced too.

hearingimpared

HB27 wrote: »

IF it were my rig and what you described I'd replace the Preamp tubes with some Amperex, Mullards, or Tele's. I also have some of the early Siemans I like very well.
From what I see in your system I'd be replacing the 6922 EH immediately. That appears to be the weakness I see in your system.
You'll find a remarkable improvement in the pre tube switch alone.
Your Anthem and 1Cs are a great match. THE EH TUBES ARE THE WEAK LINK. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

EH tubes sound like finger nails across a blackboard! The EH Gold are not as bad but the other tubes listed above will sound much better.

I had 6922 EH tubes in my CDP when I was first auditioning it and it was almost a deal breaker. Thanks to Beardog I found a set of NOS Jan 6922 (I don't recall the brand) and it was like night and day.

ben62670

Brent Jesse is also a real great dealer. If you don't like his tubes he will allow you to send them back. Heck of a guy to talk to too.

thsmith

+1 Ben, I bought some used Tung Sol 6550 from him and he treated the warrenty like NOS which is 30 days to return if not happy. You may pay a little more but if you are unsure its a great way to go.

Actually his TS 6550 are ending up to price better than ebay right now.

TubeWorld is another great place. Brendan is solid as well.

heiney9

All great selections for tube sellers. Although as good as Brendan is his prices are about the highest you'll encounter. I've bought all my tubes exclusively from Ebay sellers who have excellent feedback, great photo's and descriptions and are prompt in answering questions. Some of the best, most accommodating tube sellers are from Germany.

Not sure which tubes you need exactly but 12AX7's I like are 50's RCA black plate with D or Square getter. Also my favorite for a a little more neutrality is the Valvo (Hamburg made) ECC83 45* slant getter made in the 50's. They make a short plate and long plate version. I like the short plate but expect to pay $150-200 for a used pair.

I60 Dxx is the code for the short plate version
mCP; mC1; mC2 Dxx and various getter styles for the long plate version

H9

george daniel

If it were me,,I would buy my power tubes from Jim and my 9 pins from Brent,,you can actually call Brent and speak with him on the phone,tell him what you are looking for soundwise,and he'll hook you up,,no matter from who you buy from,I would suggest that you seriously consider the Svetlana Winged "C"'s for the power tubes in your Anthem,,I think that you will be pleased.

heiney9

george daniel wrote: »

I would suggest that you seriously consider the Svetlana Winged "C"'s for the power tubes in your Anthem,,I think that you will be pleased.

I agree 100%. They are very nice tubes and much more inexpensive than Blackburn made Mullards. I am actually looking at picking up a back up pair and calling it done for EL34 power tubes. Tesla's, Mullard made and Holland made EL34's are just insanely priced compared to the Winged "C". Spend the monye saved there on a nice Mullard made rectifier (if you need one) and on the input/driver tubes. That's what I've done and so far great results.

I did buy a pair of Siemens EL34 which are not truly Siemens since they didn;t make their own EL34 just put their brand on either Mullards, RFT or Telefunken. These Siemens are the last production of Tesla in the 80's before becoming JJ Tesla and they have a huge bottom end and very nice highs and mids, but I think I prefer the more balanced Winged "C"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260508233422&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

These are the Siemens I bought from this seller, who BTW, was excellent!!! My research of the tube structure shows these to most likely be the last production run of original Tesla's and probably aren't quite as nice as Tesla's from the 70's. Still a nice robust, very dynamic tube that has a very nice soundstage. It just emphasizes the bottom end a tad more than Winged "C".

H9

george daniel

Here is a pic of the Tesla's that I've been getting--dual halo getter,,code of 513,,IIRC 1994 vintage. Got them for 120 matched quad,,may be able to still pick em up for that too.

mole'

sad that i missed out on all of the fun Doug.

george daniel

dpowell,,any updates?

dpowell

Sorry guys, for some reason, I wasn't getting the email notifications for updates on the thread and haven't had a chance to hit the site in a couple of days. I will definitely follow up with the sellers and see what I can get going. I've contacted Jim.

dpowell

ben62670 wrote: »

Brent Jesse is also a real great dealer. If you don't like his tubes he will allow you to send them back. Heck of a guy to talk to too.

What is Brent's contact info?