help with new system

MexicoDan

This will be the first time spending some money on a system so I want to make sure I'm doing this right. I'm doing this in three stages, can't afford it all at once. Stage 1: deck and 6.5 comps in front. I don't know much about brands, but I'm leaning towards an Alpine 9813 deck with Focal 165K comps up front. If I have the money, maybe Infinity 462.5CFP 4x6 in back. Can't find a place to hear anything by Polk. I have a 96 Chevy K1500 extended cab. I'm pretty sure the speakers are good, but I don't know much about decks. I'm stuck buying from Cartoys for the deck and speakers (gift stuff)so I have to pay retail for these, and I have around 400-500 for the deck, maybe more if someone convinces me to spend more. When I get the money I'll put in an amp for the speakers, and I'm building a box for my two Polk DB10s (old but basically brand new) and will amp them at the end. How am I doing? I want to get the best for the money I'm spending so any advice would be great.

PoweredByDodge

DB 10's = droooollll.......... i'll sell u m y left nut for them

err u wudn't want that tho...lol

anywho...

the 9813 isn't bad, but for a few bucks more u can get the 9815 deck which is basically the deck i've been wanting for 6 months now -- its pimp as hell.

focal makes a mean component.... good stuff... 165K -- i cant remember model numbers at hte moment but polyglass or polykevlar series???

either way you're best to amp those -- throw a 100 x 2 on them and call it a day.

you can probably run the rears off deck power but i'd do like a 30 or 40 x 2 for them.

infinity makes a crappy speaker dude, best go with an EXIII polk / Alpine type R / or (shudder) even the sorta blah MBQ --- infinity just has a way of making me loathe them -- the sound is aweful.

if u build a box for those DB10 subs , build it so they fire forward in the cabin... u siad u've got an X cab so build the box under the seat but with the woofer cones facing forward from out under the seat.. basically so the back of rear passenger's legs would be up against the woofer cones ... this shoudl give u the best sound with your setup as opposed to downfiring them which would just not be a good idea under the seat there.

throw 400 a sub on them and call it a day.

MexicoDan

Actually Dodge, about two weeks ago you helped me out with the box plans. .67 for each, forward firing. I copied a picture from a custom built box so I have all the measurements drawn up. That will be my final touch.

I just bought the Focal 165Ks and it's the Polykevlar one's. Need to save another couple hundred for the 9815, took your advice and played around with it. Do you know much about the Eclipse line? Or Kenwood Xcerlon? I'm toying with the idea of their music boxes down the road. I get most of my music off the Net, just need to do a little research first. I should have the funds for a deck in a week or two.

Amp question for ya...am I going to damage my Focals if I wait awhile (couple months tops) before I amp them up? Store guy mentioned buying my amp first, then worrying about the deck, said I'll damage them by not giving them enough power. What do you think?

What would the EXIII's run me for my 4x6? or do I stick with a round 4"?

PoweredByDodge

ah well glad to be of service...lol

far as amping the compoents -- u can run them off deck power just dont go over "half" deck power... if its an alpine then it'll go up to 35 but anything over 18 is clipping out... i wouldn't dial it over 15... i know you may absolutely hate that to the bitter hilt and want to kill someone for lack of really "hearable" volume, but its the only way i think u can insure you're not going to damage those speakers. at "15" on an alpine deck with a 60 watt mosfet Vdrive chip you're looking at like 18 to 20 watts "true" power.

i'm no fan of eclipse but they do make very good decks... however, if u look at the features of the alpine, its quite unique in its "packed-ness". but eclipse and KW both make good stuff.

kenwood's music keg is good stuff. if you're worried that you wont be able to use your music keg or something like that with another brand headunit -- have no fear... i wish i had known this before i bought a modulator, but anyway... you can get for roughly 15 bucks an "Adaptor" for your alpine AI-net plug in. it will allow an RCA patch cable for "right and left" audio to be hooked into the AI-net port... then, you get for about 20 bucks, a similar adaptor from kenwood which will allow the output of the music keg to be put out as both RCA and "link cable"... you control the keg with the modulator panel, but the RCA leads will give you true "straight up" sound without having to float through a modulator. its a bit stupid to wire up, but it makes it better for people who like to mix brands. (i've got an alpine head with kenwood 10 disc and KW sat radio... damned modulator... grrrrr... i dont feel like rewiring it tho -- too lazy).

music keg is good stuff. but do u really need it? i mean that alpine head plays MP3's, you can put 140 songs on an average data CD... hell... that oughta last you a while.

hmm, lookin in cruthfield's catalog as we speak ... they've got polk EXIII 346 -- 4x6 plate with oval woofer and coax tweeter... on sale for 59 bucks, down from 89.

power handling is 35 w rms (not "super" but for a little dippity 4x6 plate that's actually pretty good i think).

i'm lookin at the infinity kappas -- man they really upgraded didn't they? similar model speaker couple model years ago was nothin compared to whats listed now.

the kappa 4x6 plate rates 60 w rms / 75 - 21k frequency range / and 90 db's sensitivity. - 150 bucks, but if it does what it says it does it might be worth it. if u were looking at the reference series, then the polk is going to be better (and cheaper on sale), if u were lookin at the kappas, then if price is not an issue at all, u may want to go with them... these really look out of this world for a 4x6 - amazing numbers for such a little speaker.

MTXMAN

I've heard a lot of good things about Eclipse decks and i'm planning on getting one myself within the next month or two. Eclipse will also be bringing out a MP3 Hard drive that is about the size of a pack of cigarettes that either a 60 or 80 gig HD (I can't remember how big exactly but i do remember that it's massive )
hope that help's :D

P.S. A while back i had the Infinity Referance series 4x6 plate and i was very happy with the way they sounded... (I was still pretty new to the car audio world then so it may have been my ignorance that made me happy..i dunno)

MexicoDan

Ok, I've got those bad boys in now, Focal 165K, wow. Instead of buying a deck and waiting 2 months to turn them up, I went with an amp, and I'm wondering if went with a wrong one. Guy was giving me hell of a deal and he basically through this in for free. He put in an Eclipse EA3422. It's only giving 50x4 RMS at 4 ohms now. It can give 70 at 2ohm, and I can bridge it to give them 140 or so at 4ohm. Are they ok for now running the way it is? The Focal box says give them 80w. And I have no idea how to change the amp up.

PoweredByDodge

ehhh- errr... 50's probably ok.

i have different theories on power though.

for subs i like to have right on or a little more/less. no biggie.

for highs in front i absolutely demand nearly twice the rated power.

ya dont have to use it all though -- its just good to have... like me, i'd take that 4 channel you got and be like "perfect, this amp is perfect" cuz i'd bridge it, and run it as 140 x 2 to the fronts... keep the gain down a little and what you end up with is much much better performance with a shitload of headroom. if u cross those fronts over at 100 hz u'll probably be able to run about 100+ watts into them.

then u can get a 50 x 2 or 40 x 2 for the back end.... hell even a 25 x 2 if u find yourself running your 4 channel right now with the gain very low to the rears.

that's just a suggestion though.

u cannot get 70 x 4 out of it in 2 ohm mode unless you buy all new speakers that are 2 ohm speakers.

MexicoDan

That's what I had hoped you'd day. I want to bridge them for more power and I assume they'll even sound better? Then get a smaller one to power the rears when I get em. Last stage, build my sub box and fire up those 2 DB10s with 400 each.

Can you explain the gain thing to me? You told me what to do, but why am I doing it?

The speakers have a crossover, and the amp has one, which one do I set at 100htz?

Finally, do I have to mess with the RCA jacks in the front of the amp?

You the man.

PoweredByDodge

allright...

crossover -- the compoent have xovers on them, but those are for splitting between the midrange and the tweeter... the crossover at 100 i'm talking about is your "absolute low" for the mid/tweet spekaers as a unit (as if they were one speaker)... on the amp you should have a toggle "crossover HP / LP / Full range" -- you'd set that to high pass... then u'd go to the dial next to it that has a range, usually from like 40 to 200 or 40 to 400 or something -- look it up in the manual and it'll tell you the range... then you can just do some simple "halfway is this much, one quarter is this much" math and figure out where 100 on the dial would be... peg it right around there... after a few hours of listening u may want to raise or lower it a tad depending on what kind of music you listen to and what not -- without the subs wired up, it may sound very lacking of bass -- dont worry -- its supposed to.... once u hook your subs in you'll have a smooth transistion from components to subs, and what the comps are lacking, teh subs will do.

the reason i say 100 is because i've found that 100 hz with a 12 dbxover is just about perfect for keeping a 5" / 6" or 6x9 driver from "Rattling" in a door panel when the bass hits.

when you do go to bridge the amp, you need to swap over your RCA inputs.

since its a 4 chan you'll have 4 inputs -- front right and left, rear right and left.

now what u gotta realize is that once its bridged, the front whole stage will be your left and the rear whole stage will be your right.

since you dont want mono sound (you want nice stereo like its sposed to be with distinct left and right channels), you're gonna have to go to Radio Shack and grab two "one female / 2 male" Y-splitters (2 bucks each... cheap ones are fine, they're only 4 inches long, isn't not gonna matter if u get good or **** ones).

plug one Y splitter into both the left and right of the front stage -- the plug the LEFT RCA line into that. plug the other Y splitter into the left and right of the rear -- plug the RIGHT RCA line into that one.

get the idea?

i'm assuing you have a separate gain knob for front and rear... so you're going to have to be sure to set them "equal" in reality, not just on the amp -- what i mean is, sometimes, the knob can be a little off... like "3" on the front gain may be " 3 and a half" on the back gain to get them to be the same volume outa the front and rear... its never usually more than a tiny bit off but what u do is just listen to the left one... set it whereu like it.... and then bring the right one up until you can sit in the middle seat (if u have a middle seat - or just lean your head into the middle) and be able to say "the left is not louder than the right, and hte right is not louder than the left"

its a little annoying but once you do it one time it's like second nature after that.

ok -- a short explanation of gain...

every head unit will put out a different RCA line voltage. some may be 2.5 volt, some 4, some 5.8, some 1.25.... it varys a lot.

in order for an amplifier to be built so that it can properly accept an input from any headunit on the market, they have to have an adjustable input sensitivity --- that is your gain.

some gains range from 0.250 volts up to 4 --- some from 0.250 up to 8.... or anything in between. cadence amps are 0.25 to 9.... why 9 ? i dunno... they felt like being different i guess.

here's the general rule of thumb -- if your headunit has standard preouts (not "non-clipping" outs - which are very rare these days, but eclipse MIGHT have them.... i dont think so though) then take that voltage and multiply it by like 0.6 ... so a 4 volt out * 0.6 = 2.4 volts rough rms output voltage.

so if you're gain has a rnage from 0.25 up to 4, that leaves a sweep of 3.75 volts. 2.4 minus 0.25 = 2.15... 2.15 / 3.75 = 57 percent.

so set the gain at about 55 to 60% and you should get full rated output power of the amp (in u're case it would be 140 x 2) into the rated ohm load when u have the volume turned up to the point just before the deck starts to clip out.

that is never dead on right tho - its a rough starting point.

first i'd leave the gain at low -- turn on the head and dial up the volume until it started to break up the SMALLEST BIT... then i'd turn the volume back a click or two.

if this hypothetical deck was the one we were playing with then i'd now START at 55-60% gain and work my way up or down a little each way -- finding the sweet spot that was going to allow the most power output from the amp without any clipping.

now you dont want full power though - 140 may be too much for those components. 100 - 110 might be perfect though. so what you need to do is set the volume on the deck to just before clipping (this would be the highest you'll ever dial the volume up cuz nobody wants their **** to clip out)... then with the gain at zero to start, slowly start to dial it up... since you will have a bridged amp, you'll only do one speaker at a time -- the other one will stay with gain at zero till u figure out the first one -- anyway -- dial it up until it starts to distort and IMMEDIATELY pull it back a bit to where its not distorting anymore.

dial the other gain knob up to a matching point, and keep in mind that whole "make left and right match in reality not just on the knob" thing.

sit there.. check it out -- see if u want them to be quieter than that... if u do... just dial the gain back and they'll quiet down until you're happy with them.

the biggest thingyou'll notice is that while you may end up only wanting like 80 or 90 instead of 140, you'll see a shitload of improvement in speaker control (by the amp), sound quality, and overall depth of the music by bridging hte amp. becuase you're bridging it and running it at less than its top power, the amp can "take it easy", relax, sit back, and put out good sound with little to no stress upon itself. and when that big loud note hits, the amp will have a good deal of reserve left in it to strike it out hard, rather than being stretched to its utter limit like it would be in 50 watt mode.

i still think u'll end up with 110-ish on them though... which is sweet... and it'll be loud

MexicoDan

Thanks again Dodge. I'm heading to Radio Shack in the morning to get this all set up. I've read dozens of sights and posts about this stuff, but you just explained in english for me. If I hadn't just spent the last 9 hours up on Mt. Rainier, I'd do it now.

Now the installers at Cartoys were asses. I asked to watch a little of the installation so I knew how to get inside my door panel, and they wouldn't let me, so I'll try not to break it. I want to check out the dynamat they put in, and also get access to the crossover. The tweets are a little harsh since they point right at my face from the factory spot. I should be able to tone these down a bit on the Xover? They also convieniently lost the manual which is why I'm asking. But I remember reading it before I bought them and I think it mentioned doing this.

Since I'm running it all from a **** Sony X-plode deck, I know the gain is set too high so I'll fix that up. Deck comes next.

Thanks for the patience! I'm so new at all this I posted a question for you in the home theater area. I'm gettin it though.

PoweredByDodge

well theres no way in hell i'm venturin into the home theatre boards...lol -- they wudn't like me much.

the crossover on the comp set should have three positions, or at least two -- most have 3 though... either -3 / 0 / +3 or 0/3/6 or -6 / -3 / 0...


either way, for simplicity, u can look at it like "low medium and high" for tweeter response -- the high setting will give u a sensitive tweeter, the middle a tweet that's the same sensitivity of the woofer (if its zero), and the low one that's about 3 db's less than the woofer... thus quieter.

i'm sure theres a scientific way to figure out what's th ebest setting, but nothin cuts the mustard like just playin with it yourself. sucks that u had to put the xover inside the door panel though --- wudda been more convenient on the outside of the panel with the wires going into the panel -- so u could play with the knob.

or even on the kick panel wudda been good.

anywho - that's bogus them not letting u watch... jerks.

just be REAL careful pulling the panel off -- there shud be a few screws -- pull em all out even if it looks like u might not have to take it out -- better to have to be annoyed and put more screws back in, than to cut a corner and rip part of the panel apart... there will be like 15 - 25 little plastic push clips that go into the door... "weazel" them off -- dont just yank on it or you're gonna bust clips or worse the panel mounts... the clips you can get five for a buck at any local auto store, but if you bust the fragile plastic "snap in" where the clip goes into the door panel, then u're screwed and will have to make do with a few busted clips.

i've had my door panels off about 10 times or more, and by doing so, and doing it in cold weather sometimes (stiffer plastic) i busted a bunch and am down to "half" the clips snap mounts on both doors... if i lose any more imma have to bolt the damn things back on.

if u call focal or hit their website i'm sure u can find the manual.

pro installers i am quite soured on in gereral -- i find them to be mostly asses with attitudes who do shoddy quick work.

but some - some are amazing, and work miracles with cars that make u stand back and say "wow, damn that's good"... sadly, 99.9% of them do not work at best buy/ circuit city/ tweeter / cartoys.... etc etc...

MexicoDan

Ok, pretty sure I have everything wired correctly. I switched the nob from 4ch to 2ch. Speakers seem to be working. Now I'm messing the the gain.

The nob on my gain switches range from 0.2 to 5V. The installer had the front channels at 5V. I just emailed Sony to get the pre-out voltage for my headunit. It's older and a cheap model, I'm guessing it wouldn't be over 2. It doesn't say in the manuel or online. Hopefully they get back to me soon.

Here's what happened. At 5V it was quiet, way quieter than it was before I bridged, I can turn the deck up all the way. Now at 0.2, it's holy **** loud at 1/2 way! This sounds the opposite of what you told me. Am I reading the nob wrong? I don't think I am.

So...if my deck is only a 2V preout, 2*.6=1.2V rough rms output. And my gain ranges from .2-5, that leaves a sweep of 4.8 V.

1.2V minus .2=1.0 and 1 / 4.8 = about 21%.

Is the fact I have a low ouput deck influencing this? And I would get better amp results at this lower end? Then when I get a 4 or 5v output deck, the volume would raise as I dial it up?

Systems

like my "too lazy to log in" user name ? lol...

k -- the 5V end of the dial is what you need to look at as your LOW... the 0.25 is the HIGH...

so you want to start pegging that gain at 20% before the 0.25 mark. or 80% away from the 5.

now that's gonna give you 140 x 2 dude. that may be why its "hella loud"

if u start working more toward 30% or 40% away from the 0.2 mark you'll see a wattage more around 100-ish at 2/3 to 3/4 volume... i've found usually its at 2/3 or 3/4 or somewhere between there that the deck starts to clip out -- and unless that is a very old sony mobile ES unit with non-clipping outs, then it is gonna clip before u hit top volume... u just wont notice it till u get the gain properly set on the amp...

the reason it may have seemed like i was smoking crack is because amp companies usually go from "5 volt up to 0.25 volt" -- which is backwards, but it's more correct because at the 5 volt point the apm is least sensitive / most quiet... and at the .25 volt point its most sensitive / loudest. however sometimes they go the other way -- 0.2 up to 5 (highest output to lowest output)... which kind of makesyou have to think **** backwards in order to set he gain properly...

but as long as u remember that u're working "Away" from the 0.2 mark ... whatever uget for a percentage from that calculation, just dial that much AWAY from the 0.2 mark, whether it is left or right on your particular amp doesn't matter. so if its screamin at 20% then i've got good news and bad news.... good news is you've got an amp that actually does its rated power bad news is your speakers probably cant take 140 x 2... so like i said, dial it up/back/sideways/whatever till its more like 30% to 40% away from the 0.2 mark -- given a few minutes of listening and playing with that gain dial you'll find the sweet spot that's best for you. and that is what i meant by "pulling your gains back a little" -- insted of 20% away -- 30 or 40. if u were all that way at 0.2 then you'd clip the **** out of the apm and u'd notice that same loudness that you now get at 1/2 volume, you'd see it at like 1/4 volume. that's the whole idea of gain.

now what is this nob that you set from 4 channel to 2 channel? the input selector?

if it is -- set it back to 4...

you want the amp to accept 4 inputs -- because you're "ghetto rigging" your RCA in's by using those y splitters so u get a true left and right.

the way to test if you've got the 2 / 4 channel nob in the right spot is to go to your deck and turn the balance to full left -- if you only hear music outa the left speaker, and NOT the right one, then thats good -- test it then for the right.. long as it checks out - great.

if you however end up getting music out of both speakers still, or louder out of one / quieter out of the other, then switch it back to 4 channel input on the nob.

then re-test for left / right balance and see if that fixes it.

MexicoDan

Ok, I think I've figured things out. The xovers were set at 50 for the fronts which completely distorted everything when I put the gains at 0.2 to start this whole process. After several hours of playing around with the sound, I think I've got it down. I appreciate all the help. I'll be back in a few weeks with some more questions as I start to add the deck, 4X6's with amp, and the subs with amp.

As I start to consider the DB10s in back, they're gonna need some pretty good power to keep up with the Focals aren't they? I was hoping for 400W each, what do you recommend as far as amps? Brands?

Systems

400 ea is good

an old mtx 500D would be pimp -- rated low btu comes out the box at 800 x 1 at 2 ohms at 12.5 volts (more at 14.4 volts).

i ran some DX10's off one of those and it was by far my favorite sub / amp set up ever.

the new 6500d / 801D isn't gonna measure up as well though.

usamps 1000a -- 1000 x 1 at 2 ohms (good stuff)

alpine mrv-1000d 1000 x 1 at 2 ohms (overrated a little but that's fine u only need 800+)

or you can do two smaller amps... two mtx 8302's / RF 450S's / or something like that.

Hifonics makes an amp that's like 1000 x 1 at 2 ohms / 1500 x 1 at 1 ohm.

lots of good brands.. hifonics, cadence, usamps, mtx, rockford, ppi, xtant, phoenix gold, zapco reference is within the same price range but still great ****.