Advice for Sub choice please!!

disco_al

I'm looking for a sub for my living room surround sound system (Pioneer 1020 receiver and 5 Polk speakers - Fronts: Monitor 70s, Center: CS2, Rears: Monitor 50s).

I'm having a hard time working out what will be enough to "fill my space" as you'll see below at "3". Also i am confused as to what frequency response the sub should have, as when i get the sub, i will set the AV receiver setup so that the fronts and rears are all "small", as i'm told this will get more out of them as the sub will handle the bass. If this is the case, then i've no idea where the speakers will "stop" and therefore where the sub would need to "begin". Any advice on this will also help!

1. Budget: $500 - $800.

2. Size requirements/limits: Not really an issue apart from WAF could come into play if it's too big (although if small enough i could place the sub in a front corner underneath a small table with a space underneath it measuring 18" x 21" x 18" High. So ideally the sub would be less than 18" tall, and within 18" by 21". If it was long and has to stick out from under the table, then the max width would be 14" due to the legs - there are two of these tables in each corner as pics will show).

3. Room dimensions: My living room is 23 feet long by 13 feet wide, with main couch 13 feet from TV and front speakers. The house is a "double-wide", and the long left side of the living room is essentially open (very small walls at each end), to a kitchen and dining room/morning room area. So the entire open space is about 23 feet long, by 26 feet wide. Ceiling height varies but is approx 8 feet. So the living room is approx: 300 square feet, 2400 cubic feet. Entire space is approx 600 square feet, 4800 cubic feet.
**Please check out the pictures at the end of this post**

4. Primary uses: My wife and I watch a lot of TV, and when we (or I) get the chance, we like to watch Movies (Blu-Ray, DVD, Cable) and play video games (PS3, Wii). Every now and then we play music if having a party but not often. So approx: 70% Cable TV, 20% Movies, 9% Video games, 1% Music.

5. Listening Habits: Most of the time (70%?) we listen at a "regular" level, but we also like to enjoy a movie or video game "properly" once in a while (i.e. pretty loud!), which is why i decided to invest some money in the whole 5.1 surround system in the first place. We don't usually "crank it" while watching cable but sometimes we do, and we don't always "crank it" when watching movies or playing games, but most of the time we do!

6. Appearance requirements: Not that important - i have a feeling it will be big, so ideally it won't be big AND ugly as the all important wife factor (WAF) could come into play!

7. Timeframe: I can wait for the right sub - taking my time to work out what sub will actually make a difference to my setup, and for what cost.

8. My setup:

TV: SAMSUNG LN52A630
A/V RECEIVER: PIONEER VSX-1020-K

SPEAKERS:
FRONTS: 2 x POLK MONITOR 70 SERIES II
CENTER: POLK CS2 SERIES II
REARS: 2 x POLK MONITOR 50 SERIES II

COMPONENTS:
SONY PS3 FAT 80GB
NINTENDO WII
TIME WARNER CABLE HD-DVR: SCIENTIFIC ATLANTA EXPLORER 8300HDC
PHILIPS DVR/DVD-R: DVDR3575H
PHILIPS DVD PLAYER: DVP5982
SANYO VCR: VWM-950

So that's all my info. Please let me know what you think would work well in this setup, and also why perhaps some subs won't. Any and all help will be appreciated! And yes, this is a living room and not a home theater, but the surround sound has added so much already and with a good sub i feel it will be even better!

Here's my living room from 2 angles:

Erik Tracy

I'm thinking that two PSW505s would look really cool snuggly tucked under those two side tables on your front wall and sound really cool too!:biggrin:

TORI3

Great pictures, and a beautiful home you have there. With all the information you provided, I think you'll get a lot of insightful recommendations -- This is probably the best, and most detailed post that I've ever seen on this forum regarding a question.

At the low end of your budget you might wanna check out the Epik Legend (18 H X 15 W X 20 D):

http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/legend.html

Here's an AVS thread concerning this subwoofer:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=885079&highlight=official+epik&page=491

I don't own the sub, but I'm in the market for one just like you. One of the members from another forum suggested this sub to me, and from all the reading it looks like a decent sub.

moggi1964

I own a now discontinued Epik Valor and have been overjoyed with the performance it offers. Epik is a small US based manufacturer and can sometimes be a bit hit and miss on responding to emails (but usually answer the phone pretty quick).

The legend offers great value IMHO.

EndersShadow

SVS PB-12NSD gets my vote......

another nice list of subs you can check out is here:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1246684

Polkie2009

If you can save a bit more, I'd recommend getting a Epik Empire. I'd hate for you to get a Legend and it wouldn't be enough sub for your cu. ft. listening area. If there was some way to partition the large opening to the kitchen,either with curtains or possibly french doors or something else, then__ you would get enough slam from a Legend. So many of us are in the same situation with having a large open floor plan.

PSOVLSK

Call SVS or send them an e-mail with the info in your OP. They'll shoot straight and won't try to oversell. www.svsound.com

ken brydson

PSOVLSK wrote: »

Call SVS or send them an e-mail with the info in your OP. They'll shoot straight and won't try to oversell. www.svsound.com

+1000000. My experience exactly

mole'

anything from Epik

ken brydson

mole' wrote: »

anything from Epik

Have you heard anything else?

disco_al

Thanks for the replies. I have sent emails to SVS, Epik, eD & Hsu, so i'll let you know what they suggest.

I agree that "that two PSW505s would look really cool snuggly tucked under those two side tables on the front wall", but i wonder how much bass they would deliver in my setup. Being that they would cost around $500 together, i think i could find more from a better sub ($500 - $800).

Epik Legend and Empire both look good, i think i could get the Empire out of these two.

I also like the SVS PB12-NSD or PC12-NSD, and then there's the Hsu Research VTF3 mk3, Elemental Designs A5-350, and if i can go over budget a bit, the Hsu Research VTF-15H. If anyone has any opinions positive or negative on these models/manufacturers please chime in.

I received a private message from a seller offering this sub assembled for $936 plus shipping (he calls it a Bunker Buster!?)
Dayton RS1202A 1000 Watt Dual 12" Subwoofer System Assembled
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-767&ctab=1#Tabs
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/302-835s.pdf

Has anybody heard of this sub? It's not any of the above brands so i wonder about the warranty & reliability?

Sherardp

Are you sure you need a sub or you just wanted to show off the pad? Either way I would suggest SVS or Epik and they fit your budget. I really like the pad though, I was just kidding ya about the showoff part. Enjoy it bro.

disco_al

Thanks for the compliments!
I really do want to add a sub to my existing setup and due to the open nature of the room i wanted to try as best i can to get a sub that is worth getting - i would be disappointed in buying a sub for $500 if it didn't really do anything, just as i'd be annoyed to spend $800 if there was a sub for cheaper that would be sufficient for my needs. Good thing i have time & patience, as i should end up with something that really works well that i like!

PSOVLSK

disco_al wrote: »

I have sent emails to SVS, Epik, eD & Hsu.

therefore,

disco_al wrote: »

i should end up with something that really works well that i like!

:biggrin:

disco_al

Thanks for all the help so far, here's a table of my current choices (note - the subs over $1000 are out of my budget range, but i've looked at them):

[IMG][/img]

Any more thoughts on these subs? Am i leaving any out in this price range?
Does the woofer/driver size matter compared to other statistics (amp power, freq range/response)?

Sherardp

If the funds allow then I'd go for Dual Epik Empires and not look back. The price is close to that of the SVS.

samnor

you can also consider a rythmik f12 (digs down to 14hz) according to specs... In full disclosure I havent demo'd a rythmik but have heard good things about it... you cant go much wrong with the hsu's or the other choices in your list though...

Ron Temple

Sherardp wrote: »

If the funds allow then I'd go for Dual Epik Empires and not look back. The price is close to that of the SVS.

If you can't swing the big Hsu, for your space the Empire will do the best for high output with great sound quality. The Hsu being ported with have a little more output, but I've heard the Empire and it's quite a sub. The others on your list are great subs as well, but not enough for your space.

jimsvm

My choice, only because i own one and have not listened to anything else. Micropro 3000x 2 under the end tables.

disco_al

Getting closer to a decision i think - either the Epik Empire or Legend possibly. I did email Epik, HSU, SVS and Elemental Designs, and here are their responses:

EPIK:

“Alan,

Thanks for your very detailed email and sorry for my delayed reply. Your setup looks great and you have put together a really balanced system. I don't think anybody has ever taken such nice pictures that show their room so perfectly.

I've read your email a few times and I think that you have a couple options. Your room is really big and you've got a ton of space to fill. With all of that open area, any subwoofer will have its work cut out for it.

That being said, I think that the Legend will keep up with 95+% of what you will ask it to do. The only time it may not have every bit of output you want is if you were watching a movie in your room at full reference levels (extremely loud) with material that goes VERY low in frequency.

The Legend can play very loud and has sound quality to match. You room just happens to be very large. For the price, you will find it nearly impossible to purchase a subwoofer that will fill your room up as well as a Legend.

On the other hand, an Empire would fill up your room better and have more dynamic output on tap for when you need it. It will play louder and with less distortion. It will also go lower and provide more visceral 'slam' during movies and video games.

It is worth the money, but it may be out of your set budget. The Empire is roughly equal to a PAIR of Legends. It represents a noticeably large step up in performance.

Our subs tend to outperform subs purchased in a store by a larger margin. We don't have to sell through a distributor and a reseller, so are prices and products are hugely competitive. I mention that because you should keep it in mind when you compare to other products sold in stores.

If you went to a store and spent the same amount of money on a subwoofer, it would be sorely lacking in direct comparison. It won't have the same output level and will definitely not have the low end and depth that our subs provide. That is why we are still in business and continue to grow every year.

Above all else, I think that both subs will perform better than anything else available for the money. You will just have to decide what fits your budget and needs.

Please let us know if you have any other questions. I apologize again for my late reply to your email.

Thanks again for your email and your interest in Epik Subwoofers.

All the best,

Chad”
sales@epiksubwoofers.com
Phone 815.337.6067
Fax 815.337.6069

Elemental Designs:

“Hello Alan,

Thank you for the email, and we do apologize for the delay in response as the
email was caught in our spam filter due to the size of the attachments.

With the size room you have I'd probably say you want to look towards the A5-350 to help fill your space. I do happen to know that there may be some information released next week for those that are quick enough and watching our blog to "possibly" see black friday pricing specials on some of our subwoofers.

I think any well built subwoofer should perform well given the proper setup and
placement in your room. You've got an open floor plan so the hardest thing may
be just to get the proper amount of output at the listening position. This is
why I would think the A5-350 might be the better option and provide a pretty
good amount of output in your room.

Please let me know if you have any questions,
Brett Bell”
Phone: 641-792-2501
brettb@elementaldesigns.com

HSU:

“Hi Alan,

Thank you for the pictures, what a beautiful space you have there!

You have a large overall volume of space to fill, so I recommend getting a
12" VTF-3 MK3 sub if possible (and a VTF-2 MK3 at a very minimum).

Is there any chance that you can move the lamp table out in the front
right corner of the room (as viewed from your main listening position), and
then place a VTF MK3 there sideways?

Other alternative placement positions (if possible or practical) include:
VTF MK3 placed sideways in the back right corner of the room (with lamp
removed back there); VTF MK3 placed on the side of the main listening couch
as an endtable; VTF MK3 placed sideways directly behind the main listening
couch.

Sincerely
Pete”

(my response:)
> Hi there,
>
> Thanks for the quick reply!
>
> I can certainly put the sub in any of those positions you suggested as
> its final location is not set at all. The main thing i am trying to
> figure out is just how much sub i need for my particular setup. If you
> think the VTF-3 MK3 will be enough (which i'm guessing you do as you say
> the lower VTF-2 MK3 would be the "minimum") then i would be happy to go
> with that model.
>
> Any other tips or recommendations you can give are hugely appreciated.
> Thanks for your time and help,
> Alan

“Hi Alan,

I do think that the VTF-3 MK3 will be enough to fill that space, and will
fit your budget nicely.

I suggest experimenting with those three subwoofer placement positions to
see what ends up to give the best result.

Thanks
Sincerely,
Pete”

SVS:

“Hi Alan,
Thanks for contacting SVS!
We make three subs in that budget range. The SB12-NSD will fit under the table as a ~14.25" cube but as our smallest sub really isn't best suited for HT in that size room especially considering how open it is. The PB10-NSD is a better choice for HT, despite its smaller woofer, as its larger, ported box give is an appreciable advantage in the deep bass compared to the SB12-NSD. Won’t quite fit under the table, though, at 18-15/16” tall and 21-7/16” long (or would it?). Better than either would be the PC12-NSD but it’s quite a bit larger than either, also, and works best tucked into a corner where it takes up little floor space. They’ll work perfectly with your Polks and receiver and with any of them a “small” setting for the main speakers is best, with a crossover of 80Hz or so, as that assures all deep bass/LFE goes to the sub where it’s reproduced best.
How tight is that measurement under the table, Alan, and would you be able to fit the PC12-NSD in one of the room’s corners (even rear can work well)?”
Jack Gilvey
Director – Customer Service
SV Sound, LLC
703.436.1464 (office)
585.486.1787 (e-fax)
jackg@svsound.com (e-mail)

(my response:)
Thanks for the quick reply!
I don't mind a sub that is too large to fit under the end table, or even a sub that is slightly over-budget if lesser subs will not be enough for my setup. If you think the PC12-NSD (or the PB12-NSD if available?) would be a good fit then i would probably go with that, but if you feel it would not be good enough then please recommend any others.
Thanks for your time and help,
Alan

“Hi Alan,
The PC12-NSD or PB12-NSD (being re-introduced next year) will sound very good, absolutely, and will be a revelation compared to relying on just the Polks for LFE. Give the large open area (4800 ft^3), however, you’d certainly notice quite a difference making the jump to a PB12-Plus or PC12-Plus on those occasions when you crank it, especially for movies. Consider the PC12-Plus the PC12-NSD on steroids.
The combination of a larger enclosure volume, more capable woofer (longer stroke and higher power handling), much greater port area, and higher amp power results in a subwoofer which has on average about 60-70% more maximum output capability than the NSD version. So, when the NSD is hitting its limits and starting to compress the signal, the Plus is still coasting with plenty of headroom left in the tank making for a more impactful, visceral experience.”
Jack Gilvey
Director – Customer Service
SV Sound, LLC
703.436.1464 (office)
585.486.1787 (e-fax)
jackg@svsound.com (e-mail)

So here's the latest table sorted and color-coded by price (i'll add the Rythmik F15, FV15 & Craig Sub cs18.1 shortly):

disco_al

disco_al

Alright - i finally pulled the trigger!

Elemental Designs A5-350 - $699 shipped, thanks to Black Friday online special:
http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=1418

So why this Sub in the end? I decided the 15" ported option was the best, and my only other options were the HSU VTF-15H or maybe the Rythmik F15, which would have cost more. For $700 shipped i don't think i could have found a better sub. It's quite a big beast so i had to convince the wife it would fit into the living room somewhere (she wished it was smaller!) and then the trigger was pulled.

Supposedly "the A5-350 - all units sold at Black Friday Pricing will be shipping before December 15th" so should be a bass-filled Christmas!

Thanks so much for all the advice and recommendations, i think i'm gonna be pretty happy for years to come and i owe a lot to my fellow AV enthusiasts! So now what's left? Sub cables, audio tuning tools (DVD, spl meter), rear speaker risers, . . . . .???

Black96Z

disco_al have you received your A5-350 yet? what do you think of it?

disco_al

I received it pretty quickly - ordered on Black Friday, arrived on December 6th.

It is big & heavy - i helped the FedEx guy carry it from back of truck and into the house, then living room, and i'm sure we were both glad to have had each others help.

I had pre-measured where it might go in the living room due to it's size and my wife's preferences (i.e. the more discrete the better - difficult with the A5-350!).
We ended up placing it where we thought we would, so sadly i have not been able to do any kind of "sub crawl" to determine most effective placement. That being said, i'm not at all bothered with its placement due to it's performance, which is incredible.

I have the volume set to approx 9 to 12 usually - this requires some tweaking occasionally (as if i am watching a movie very loud and i need to increase the bass i turn it up - but if i then watch a tv show or something where there is lots of "unnecessary" bass, i turn the sub down a bit, but this is not a problem, i'm glad i have control). I have not yet turned it above 12 (50%) and don't think i'll ever really need to. It is really very, very powerful, and it performs excellently in my setup.

My big concern was the amount of space it had to 'fill' due to my open plan rooms, and as i say, it fills with clarity and no negatives at only 50%, so i am delighted with it. I beleive i am still 'breaking it in' (i.e. subs get better over time - not sure how long) so in a month or two i may try some higher sub levels to really see what it does, but if the amount of bass is enough now at 50%, i will never really set it above this, and i'm happy knowing it has plenty of headroom & power left available.

So overall, very happy with it, i would absolutely recommend it to anyone who needs to fill a very large space for less than $800 (mine was $700 shipped) with some really good bass. Only downside is the size & weight, but then again, weight not a factor once it's in place, and size, so long as you do your homework and know how big it is should not be a problem either.

apphd

Congrats! Many could take a lesson from the research you did in making your decision. Especially with talking to the manufactures of the subs you were considering. Those brands all make good subs, and are known to give honest responses on what product they think you need. So often many underestimate the amount of sub they will need for the space they need to fill. Luckily you had a budget that could handle it, the space for what you needed, and most important, the wife's understanding of what was coming, and her approval.

Enjoy

gmm141

Have you had a chance to move it around the room at all? I have a similar sized room and am curious what you may have tried.