TSI500/TSI400/TSI300 BiAmp/BiWiring Info

derouyag

Hello All, this is my first post so please be kind.

I have reviewed a number of threads regarding bi-amping and bi-wiring. I did not find any that discussed how the speaker enclusure handles the two power sources. I know that the power sources are divided into bass and mid/hi frequencies, but I am more interested in how the speaker enclosure handles the dividing of this information to the individual sound drivers.

For example, the TSI500 has 5 drivers, 4 - 6.5" drivers and a 1" tweeter. When bi-amping, what drivers get the power from the lower terminals and what drivers get the power from the upper terminals? I know the tweeter gets the power from the upper terminals, but how are the other 4 drivers handled.

Does the bottom two 6.5 drivers get the power from the lower terminals?


This gets more complicated when I refer to the TSI400 and the TSI300. Does any one have a clear answer for each TSI500/TSI400/TSI300?

I have an Onkyo TXSR608B biamped. Recently upgraded from the TSI300 to the TSI400 and noticed quite a change in sound from the FL and FR channels. I know they are considerably different speakers given the extra 5.25" driver, but the bi-amping could be giving better bass response in the TSI400.

I am asking the question because I am probably going to upgrade to the TSI500 very soon, and I would like to know where the power is going inside the speaker enclosure.

Also, if my receiver is bi-amped then would that mean that 100w is going to the bass and the other 100w is going to the mid/hi? Or is there something else that I am missing with bi-amping?

Signed the Newbie.

EndersShadow

I will let others get into the specifics of your question, but I can tell you that when you bi-amp like you are, you are not getting the 100w into each channel. I dont know what the exact number is but it is much lower.

I had my speakers setup like you did (only I had Monitor 60's which are TSI400's I believe) and I found them to sound better with just one connection to the reciever rather than two, but YMMV and one man's audio heaven is anothers dump

I personally dont see much benefit from upgrading your fronts again. I would take that money and put it into a good sub (although I am not sure what you have ).

I would ask why you are looking to upgrade your fronts again? There might be a better way to solve whatever problem your encountering without upgrading your fronts.

derouyag

EndersShadow wrote: »

I will let others get into the specifics of your question, but I can tell you that when you bi-amp like you are, you are not getting the 100w into each channel. I dont know what the exact number is but it is much lower.

Wouldn't the power given to the speaker enclosure be up to the receiver sending the signal? So my receive might say each channel gets 100w and another might say 50w+50w for example; when bi-amping.

I think I need to go to my Onkyo manual for that info.

EndersShadow wrote: »

I personally dont see much benefit from upgrading your fronts again. I would take that money and put it into a good sub (although I am not sure what you have ).

I would ask why you are looking to upgrade your fronts again? There might be a better way to solve whatever problem your encountering without upgrading your fronts.

Upgrading my fronts again comes from the ability to pay the difference within 30 days, which allows me to return the TSI400s.

My sub is a Cerwin-Vega CMX12S 300w 12". It's not bad. I have it calibrated to ensure it is not over-powering the rest of the system with bass, but is there when needed.

derouyag

bump - with signature

Slinger182

I have the 500s and recently took off the "bi-amp" after having them "bi-amped" for a year. I made jumpers out of 12 gauge monster speaker wire. I could not hear any difference afterwards.

derouyag

I just did a quick check on the TSI400s I have and noticed that the upper terminals are powering the tweeter and the lower terminals are powering the 3 - 5.25" drivers. I guess this is why people don't notice any considerable difference in performance. The tweeter only takes a small amount of power versus the other drivers. So bi-amping would only supply a few watts to the tweeter/mid and the bass/mid would take the 100w like normal.

To me it would have made more sense to power one 5.25" and a tweeter and cross-over at about 3,500hz to handle the mids and highs. Then use the other two 5.25" drivers from 40hz - 3,500hz to handle good bass. This way the power is distributed... I think...

EndersShadow

derouyag wrote: »

Wouldn't the power given to the speaker enclosure be up to the receiver sending the signal? So my receive might say each channel gets 100w and another might say 50w+50w for example; when bi-amping.

I think I need to go to my Onkyo manual for that info.

Upgrading my fronts again comes from the ability to pay the difference within 30 days, which allows me to return the TSI400s.

My sub is a Cerwin-Vega CMX12S 300w 12". It's not bad. I have it calibrated to ensure it is not over-powering the rest of the system with bass, but is there when needed.

Gotcha on the price thing, couple things to keep in mind. The rating on your recievers channels (i.e. 100x5) if you look in the manual is actually normally only with 2 channels driven. So when you connect all 5 speakers up your really not going to get the "full" 100 x 5. This is why you will notice many of us have seperate amplifiers just for the speakers, because normally a dedicated amp is rated with all channels driven. Unfortunately your reciever doesnt have pre-outs (its one model too low :frown:).

I doubt you will notice much of a difference for HT between the 400's and 500's, but I have heard you do with music (only if listening in direct mode however because this will in effect turn off your sub). The 500's will help with bass, but if your fine with the amount coming from your sub I wouldnt mess with what you have. ALso something to keep in mind is that most of us have our speakers set to "small" which sends any frequency below ~70-80 (with some variation) to the sub. So the extra woofers in the 500's wouldnt make a huge difference since your feeding lots of their signal to the sub. A alternative if your looking for more bass (just guessing you are) would be to get another of the same sub you have now and put them on either side of the room. This will even out bass response.

I realize this hasnt totally answered your "bi-amp" question, but I dont want to mess with that as there are waay to many opinions on that. If it sounds good to you, leave it that way. But I personally dont think the upgrade speaker wise is worth it and you could use that money elsewhere to make much better improvements (room treatments, second sub).

derouyag

EndersShadow wrote: »

Unfortunately your reciever doesnt have pre-outs (its one model too low :frown:).

So would you say my $150.00 plus for the TSI500 would be better spend going towards the TXSR808 at a + of about $380.00? Considering that one has pre-outs and 135w per channel.

EndersShadow

derouyag wrote: »

EndersShadow wrote: »

Unfortunately your reciever doesnt have pre-outs (its one model too low :frown:).

So would you say my $150.00 plus for the TSI500 would be better spend going towards the TXSR808 at a + of about $380.00? Considering that one has pre-outs and 135w per channel.

Ok...you have a couple options and keep in mind these are all my personal opinion, others are free to agree or disagree:

Option 1 involves getting a factory refurbed Onkyo from Accessories4less.com. They are factory authorized and come with a 1 year manufacture warranty. I would recommend getting the lowest model with pre-outs and then a used amplifier (but not necesarrily right away).

Option 2 involves getting a new 708 which has pre-outs and then a used amp (but not necesarrily right away).

The reason for getting a separate power amp is that in order to have those awesome stickers on the front like (HDMI, DTS, etc) receiver manufactures have to pay licensing fee's to the companies that own those patents. These costs add up and in order to make a profit they have to cut costs somewhere (parts/getting rid of things like s-video, etc, fewer HDMI connections). Am I saying the Onkyo you have is not made with good quality parts NO. They have to make a profit and it’s a business practice you see with everyone (Yamaha, Onkyo, etc).

What I am saying is that by focusing on just one thing (providing power) a dedicated amp doesn’t have those same licensing fee's since there are none really for just providing power. They use heavier, beefier components since they have the money to do so. This is why normally if you compare a receiver thats say 100x5 to a dedicated amp that is 100x5 there is a big difference in weight. That difference is the size of the power supply, and other parts that will make a difference.

Now used v. new on an amp. Most solid state amps (what you would want) have very few moving parts that break down. There are some issues with corrosion over time, but besides that the technology in amps hasn’t really changed. So a good 100x5 amp from 20 years ago is still probably going to work as well as a brand new one, however the used one will be considerably less.

So by going used you can sometimes get a much better amp for the price than new. Also lots of guys on this forum are constantly trying out new gear, and selling their used stuff here. They normally sell here for lower than on other sites (ebay, audiogon, craigslist), etc. Also most guys on here are trustworthy folks so I personally would buy from them.

So honestly get a reciever with pre-outs and then shop around and buy a really nice amp (suggest one that is also 4 ohm capable should you want to eventually get LSi's or other harder to drive speakers).

Someone on either here or AVSFORUM's has a great tag line: "Buy receivers for features, buy amplifiers for power"

Did that help clarify things at all or did I just murky up the waters?

myke

It helped me, thanks! I'm starting to look for amps and appreciate the info! Good luck derouyag!

myke

Hey EndersShadow,

Say your setup and it looks good, but do you place the 59"DLP on the center speaker?

EndersShadow

myke wrote: »

Hey EndersShadow,

Say your setup and it looks good, but do you place the 59"DLP on the center speaker?

nope, I have it on a shelf on top of the DLP. The shelf is in the background of the TV pic leaning on the wall.

derouyag

bump - new equipment

__________________
Main Home Theater
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR808
Fronts: TSI400 (bi-amp)
Rears: TSI200
Center: CS20
Sub: Cerwin-Vega CX12S
Monitor: Samsung UN55C6300 LED

cnh

Nice choices above! The Onkyo has a ton of features and will serve you well for years to come. CS20--a very nice center that will carry a lot of weight in surround soundtracks. And, I'm a fan of Samsung HDTVs--very nice. You've got to be happy with where you're starting.


Enjoy.

cnh

myke

I meant to write "saw" but i think you got it anyways. I was wondering b/c my CSi A6 is a beast and had to put steel L brackets behind my 58" sammy, it looks like the center hangs in mid air right above the tv (angeling down a little of course). I painted the brackets the color of the wall so they blend very well if you look from the side and since they're a couple inches shorter than the length of the center you don't see them from the front view, not to mention their pretty thin luckily.

bdmeredith

I too am new to the forums and just upgraded my home theater system from a Sony HTIB to ONKYO TX-SR608, Front-Monitor 60s, Center-CS1, Rears-Monitor 30s, Sub-PSW10. I have yet to set it up and was entertaining the BiAmp thought. From what I have read I think I will wire straight thru.

My entertainment area is my "man cave" in my basement which is 12' x 12' with 3 walls, 7' ceiling, open rear(where main seating is). Fabric tiled ceiling, Berber carpet and "stuffed" area afford excellent acoustics. My family already complains about the volume of the HTIB system which will crank, but isn't "clean".

EndersShadow I really appreciate your input cuz it seems like you've already been there, done that and I know where I want to go when I upgrade again. I just want to get as much as I can out of the components I have so I don't have to crank it up to hear everything sweetly. I am not concerned with bass as much as I am about clean, crisp sound. I thought maybe biamping would help with that, but now I don't know.

Any additional advice or suggestions, from anyone, is greatly appreciated.

____________________

Home Theater

Receiver: ONKYO TX-SR608
Front: Monitor 60
Rear: Monitor 30
Center: CS1
Sub: PSW10
Monitor: LG 47LX6500 LED
HTPC: AMD 3.2GB Quadcore, 8GB Ram, Radeon HD 5770 1GB, LG BluRay DVD

EndersShadow

bdmeredith wrote: »

I too am new to the forums and just upgraded my home theater system from a Sony HTIB to ONKYO TX-SR608, Front-Monitor 60s, Center-CS1, Rears-Monitor 30s, Sub-PSW10. I have yet to set it up and was entertaining the BiAmp thought. From what I have read I think I will wire straight thru.

My entertainment area is my "man cave" in my basement which is 12' x 12' with 3 walls, 7' ceiling, open rear(where main seating is). Fabric tiled ceiling, Berber carpet and "stuffed" area afford excellent acoustics. My family already complains about the volume of the HTIB system which will crank, but isn't "clean".

EndersShadow I really appreciate your input cuz it seems like you've already been there, done that and I know where I want to go when I upgrade again. I just want to get as much as I can out of the components I have so I don't have to crank it up to hear everything sweetly. I am not concerned with bass as much as I am about clean, crisp sound. I thought maybe biamping would help with that, but now I don't know.

Any additional advice or suggestions, from anyone, is greatly appreciated.

____________________

Home Theater

Receiver: ONKYO TX-SR608
Front: Monitor 60
Rear: Monitor 30
Center: CS1
Sub: PSW10
Monitor: LG 47LX6500 LED
HTPC: AMD 3.2GB Quadcore, 8GB Ram, Radeon HD 5770 1GB, LG BluRay DVD

I would say try it and see if you like it. Worst case your out a little speaker wire, best case it sounds better and gives you years of enjoyment.....

Audio is very subjective and this is one of those places. You can measure and calculate all you want, but everyones ears hear and like different things. So your audio heaven might be my audio hell. But if your happy with the results, who cares...

bdmeredith

Thanks for for the quick reply, I guess I'll give it a shot. I was wondering what to do with those short pieces of 14 gauge.

derouyag

So now that I have the ONKYO TX-NR808 with the PreAmp outs, what amplifier(s) would I be looking at for 7.1 surround? How would that work with the 11 speaker setup that the 808 is capable of?

Would I keep the receiver handling the surround speakers (high, wide, back, side), then get a special amp just for the fronts and center???

What amps would you suggest?

EndersShadow

derouyag wrote: »

So now that I have the ONKYO TX-NR808 with the PreAmp outs, what amplifier(s) would I be looking at for 7.1 surround? How would that work with the 11 speaker setup that the 808 is capable of?

Would I keep the receiver handling the surround speakers (high, wide, back, side), then get a special amp just for the fronts and center???

What amps would you suggest?

Most of us suggest getting a amp just to power your front three. Surrounds dont normally require that much power (unless your running 4 ohm speakers) so you can run them from your Onkyo as you mentioned. Getting something in like the 125-200wpc range would be fine.

Look for something used from a company like Adacom, Parasound, Marantz, ect. If looking new take a look at Emotiva's UPA-3 or XPA-3. Either of those would make you happy for a very very long time.