Future amp upgrade (your thoughts?)

EndersShadow

I am driving a 01 Jetta currently. It is setup for component speakers. Upon purchasing the car about 4 years ago I ripped out all the factory stuff (but kept it to put back in upon sale). I put Dynamat Extreme on all 4 doors and a double layer in the trunk. I am running all the gear below:

CD Player: Kenwood KDC MP-438U (3 RCA outs)
Cables: Memphis Audio 4guage Amp Kit, 1 Memphis Audio 17ft 4 RCA's, 1 Memphis Audio 17ft 2 RCA.

Amp for Fronts: MTX Thunder Elite 404 (65x4)
Fronts: Polk db6501 Component speakers (125w continuous)
Rears: Polk db6501 Component speakers (125w continuous)

Amp for sub: JL Audio Slash 250x1
Sub: Treo 10" (cant find spec's as I dont know the model #)

I am thinking of upgrading all my gear (amp and sub wise) in the next few months. It has gotten to the point where I turn up the volume but get no increase in sound. I realize this means my amp cant power the speakers as much as I want as the speakers can handle more power than the amp can give. I also am aware that the MTX amp doesnt exactly have tons of controls for tweaking the sound.


My wife's car (2007 Malibu) still has everything stock in it. We are planning on getting her a set of Infinity Kappa 62.9I for her fronts and Infinity Kappa 692.9I for her rears for christmas hopefully.

My thought is this: Take my MTX and JL audio Slash amp and put them in her car (I have an old 10" MTX sub in a truck box for her as well) and get new amps for my car. I am looking at buying her this wiring kit and having a local audio shop do the install (save me some time).

Here is what I am looking at for my new amps: a pair of JL Audio J2 360.2 (110x2) and either a Audio XD600/1 or a JL Audio J2 500.1 . I figure the 360.2 will give my Polks just the right amount of wattage as I in no way want to blow them at all!

I eventually would like to upgrade the entire car to JL gear, but we might be selling it here in the next year or so and I want to wait to buy new gear (speaker wise) until I know it will fit. I am however looking at replacing the Treo sub with a JL Audio 10W3v3-2. I prefer 10's to 12's for size reasons and also think they have tighter bass (might not dig as deep though).

So since this upgrade is a couple months out I was hoping to get some feedback on the new amps. Should I stepup to the XD or Slash v2 amp lineup or are the amps I have choosen fine? Are their any issues you see (besides needing a 4 guage to 3 8 guage distribution block) wiring, impedance or wattage wise? Should I look at just getting one really robust 5 channel amp rather than breaking it out into 3? Any input would be appreciated. Thanks!

P.S. I absolutely love the sound of these Polk speakers! I cant wait to get some more power to them so they can really shine more than they do now!

arun1963

Personally, I would sell the 2 pairs of db's and the hu and get a single pair of MM's for the front and a hu that gives TA and maybe lets you go active (depends on how much you want to spend here).

It wouldn't make your sound louder, but the sound would be at a whole new level. Then you can change amps to make it louder.

EndersShadow

arun1963 wrote: »

Personally, I would sell the 2 pairs of db's and the hu and get a single pair of MM's for the front and a hu that gives TA and maybe lets you go active (depends on how much you want to spend here).

It wouldn't make your sound louder, but the sound would be at a whole new level. Then you can change amps to make it louder.

I had thought about that, but I am happy with the sound now (and pulling everything out would be a PITA). Also those speakers are too deep to fit in my car (without additional modification). My thoughts are get the amps now since the speakers will go with the car (as will the head unit) when it sells and there is no guarantee the speakers will fit in the new car. I can take the amps with me and they would be good for many years. I am trying to keep this upgrade decently cheap and in a way that makes the least waste of my current gear (and helps out the wife as well).

Plus by not getting new speakers now and just amps, I free up much more cash for speakers when I get a new car.

EndersShadow

So one of my component speakers went out this week (think its just a loose wire) so I am taking it to where I got all my gear installed originally. I think I am going to see what prices they have on the Sundown SAX 100.4 & either the SAZ1000D or the SAE1200Dv2 (both discontinued but hopefully they have some in stock). Need some help picking between those two amps....

Anyone have any thoughts on either?

arun1963

Moving from a 4x65watts to 4x100 watts amp is a gain of less than 1 db..........

EndersShadow

arun1963 wrote: »

Moving from a 4x65watts to 4x100 watts amp is a gain of less than 1 db..........

so if I were to give the speakers their full 125x4 instead of 65x4 how much of an increase would I be getting?

arun1963

About 3db.........................the earlier post should have read 'just under 2db'. What are you really looking for? Better sound or just louder?

EndersShadow

arun1963 wrote: »

About 3db.........................the earlier post should have read 'just under 2db'. What are you really looking for? Better sound or just louder?

Little bit of both. The Sundown 100.4 has a much better EQ set than my MTX ThunderElite 404 and more power as well. Same for the sub amps, especially when I am looking to move from a Treo (4 or 2 ohm load not sure which) to one JL 10w3v3-2 ohm sub and then eventually 2 of them. The Sundowns give enough power to run one of the JL's @ 2 ohms at max wattage, and if I can wire them to represent a 1 ohm load (not sure if thats possible/recommended) I can get enough juice for both the JL's from the amp since its 1ohm stable.

kawizx9r

Just 2 days ago I ripped everything out.

Upgraded to a 4-channel amp and couldn't be happier. Don't be afraid to start all over, it's a nice refreshing feeling

Right after I got done rewiring the amps/etc., I installed my performance intake. Tomorrow my intake manifold (upper and lower). What I'm getting at, if it requires some work....it's probably worth it (in this case it definitely was).

EndersShadow

kawizx9r wrote: »

Just 2 days ago I ripped everything out.

Upgraded to a 4-channel amp and couldn't be happier. Don't be afraid to start all over, it's a nice refreshing feeling

Right after I got done rewiring the amps/etc., I installed my performance intake. Tomorrow my intake manifold (upper and lower). What I'm getting at, if it requires some work....it's probably worth it (in this case it definitely was).

Trust me, I have been realizing just how limited my MTX amp is in SQ and hoping these Sundown amps are better. Going to talk to my installer freinds tomorrow when I take my car to get worked on by them and get their thoughts.

I also am hoping to get some kinda break on the price and hopefully end up with much much better SQ amps to drive my gear (both now and in the future).

Was going to drop in headers, intake, exhaust and some other fun gear into my car in March however the wife needs 2 knee surgeries and potentially a back one so my play money is very limited. Also the Jetta is probably getting traded in for a SUV in about 2 years so I want to get nice amps now (since I can take those with me) and then just upgrade the stock speakers and spend the rest on performance upgrades. That and the wife wants to upgrade her stock stuff so my old gear goes into her car.

The SUV is going to hopefully have 40k or less on it so I will have lots of time to upgrade the performance as I go .

arun1963

EndersShadow wrote: »

Little bit of both. The Sundown 100.4 has a much better EQ set than my MTX ThunderElite 404 and more power as well. Same for the sub amps, especially when I am looking to move from a Treo (4 or 2 ohm load not sure which) to one JL 10w3v3-2 ohm sub and then eventually 2 of them. The Sundowns give enough power to run one of the JL's @ 2 ohms at max wattage, and if I can wire them to represent a 1 ohm load (not sure if thats possible/recommended) I can get enough juice for both the JL's from the amp since its 1ohm stable.

What if I were to tell you the following:

1. Amps don't contribute to sq.
2. I'd rather have the eq power at my hu than the amp.
3. L/R eq makes a heck of a big differnce.
4. Dsp at your source/processor, speaker placement, and tuning, managing reflections, are the only contributors to sq.
5. DSP>Quality of Speakers=Driver placement>Amp
6. From the champions, to the wannabe's, we are all struggling. You never crest the top. Is the sound good? Its amazing. Is it the best? Heck no, it will never be.
7. How long does it take to learn how to tune? About 2-3 years.
8. What if I just want decent sound without getting into any of the crap above? Buy the MS-8.
9. Can I beat the MS-8 for SQ...........If you know what you're doing, yes very easily.
10. Spending on deadening beyond a point is pointless. You could spend $ 8,000 on deadening or $ 400 on your doors and some basic work on your footwell and the difference between the two, on the move would be about 3 db......max.

................So now what do you want?

kawizx9r

^^^

Been learning from Arun, Mac and D with the things they've posted on my thread and PMs.

I specifically went with my 4-channel amp (not because it put out more power) but because it had time alignment for EACH channel (meaning separate TA for each tweeter and woofer since I'm bi-amping) and parametric EQ+active XO. I've learned to go with more dsp options/tuning than power in general.

EndersShadow

So given a price range of 650 for 2 amps, which would you recommend?

@kawizx9r was debating running 2 360.2's for my fronts, do you like that amp?

kawizx9r

EndersShadow wrote: »

So given a price range of 650 for 2 amps, which would you recommend?

@kawizx9r was debating running 2 360.2's for my fronts, do you like that amp?

The JL Audio 360.2?

I actually wanted to use them for my SR's at first, but I scored a Kenwood X4R and decided to use that to bi-amp my components.

As for the 360.2, I'm dumping it as soon as I pick up a JL Audio Slash 500 or so and a 12" SR sub. It's a nice amp, and pushes my MTX hard but it won't be anywhere near enough for the SR sub.

It's also not capable of 2ohms when bridged, so keep that in mind!

Check out the thread I posted, you'll see the 4-chan amp I got - http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106929&page=3

EndersShadow

kawizx9r wrote: »

The JL Audio 360.2?

I actually wanted to use them for my SR's at first, but I scored a Kenwood X4R and decided to use that to bi-amp my components.

As for the 360.2, I'm dumping it as soon as I pick up a JL Audio Slash 500 or so and a 12" SR sub. It's a nice amp, and pushes my MTX hard but it won't be anywhere near enough for the SR sub.

It's also not capable of 2ohms when bridged, so keep that in mind!

Check out the thread I posted, you'll see the 4-chan amp I got - http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106929&page=3

I wasnt thinking about bridging it since my db6501's can only handle 125w continous anyway. Was going to grab one for the fronts and one for the rears.

EndersShadow

DSkip wrote: »

I think its awesome that it offers TA on the amp; however, I think it would be a b**** to dial in. One thing that I like about my HU (Pioneer 860) is that all processing is done in the unit, so I can do it in the drivers seat without ever getting out. Your best thing on that amp (as far as bells and whistles) is the full crossover range that it offers so you can actually go active.

I am confused as well since your Head Unit has Time Alignment why you wanted it in your amp? Do you need it in both components to work?

Also why would you want to amp the tweeters seperate from the other components? Are you using the amp as the crossover instead of a dedicated one and if so what are the pro's and con's?

I am asking because I have components alread with a built in crossover and am wondering what I would gain from bi-amping them.

I am not against upgrading my HeadUnit at some point either (I like Kenwood and have liked my KDC-MP438U HU for the years I have had it in). I like the Kenwood Excelon KDC-X794 (very decent price and has time alignment as well), I just wish there was a HU on the market that let you control your zune from it, everything is Ipod based and its kinda hard/impossible to switch songs on your Zune while driving....

kawizx9r

EndersShadow wrote: »

I am confused as well since your Head Unit has Time Alignment why you wanted it in your amp? Do you need it in both components to work?

Also why would you want to amp the tweeters seperate from the other components? Are you using the amp as the crossover instead of a dedicated one and if so what are the pro's and con's?

I am asking because I have components alread with a built in crossover and am wondering what I would gain from bi-amping them.

I am not against upgrading my HeadUnit at some point either (I like Kenwood and have liked my KDC-MP438U HU for the years I have had it in). I like the Kenwood Excelon KDC-X794 (very decent price and has time alignment as well), I just wish there was a HU on the market that let you control your zune from it, everything is Ipod based and its kinda hard/impossible to switch songs on your Zune while driving....

Uhm, I answered some of your questions in that thread of mine I posted

I bought the amp for it's features and I'll explain why.

Separately powering the components will allow in better control of the woofers and tweeters. I can manually set the gain a bit higher or lower to my liking, as well as benefit from the increased power the speakers have. Dynamics are there, whether at low or high volumes and they don't struggle when I turn the volume up. If anything, they keep getting louder and sound just as clear/punchy/dynamic as they do at low and moderate volumes. All speakers benefit from being fed clean power, and lots of it!

Now, the DSP features it came with are a plus. What really sold me is the Time Alignment and Parametric EQ and Active XO. Because I have components, my tweeters and woofers are all different distances from ME. The HU allows me to control time alignment as a WHOLE on the left OR right channel. With the components being bi-amped, I can manually control the time alignment for the left tweeter/left woofer/right tweeter/right woofer alone. This will allow me to dial in the time alignment even better since not all speakers are the same distance.

As for the crossover, I'm still using the stock passive crossover. It has inputs for bi-amping and outputs that go out to the tweeter and woofer so they're already crossed where they're supposed to be. One of these days though, I'm going to eliminate the passive crossover and utilize the active X-O in my amp.

As for HU's, I have the X794. If you don't mind giving up detachable face and a cd player, I will suggest the KIV 700 or 900 (adds bluetooth built in). They offer full control over your Zune which is why my cousin purchased it. It has all the same features as the 794 in terms of TA/dsp but offers a color screen as well. My cousin though is rather disappointed in the interface because it takes awhile to read the Zune before playing, not nearly as quick as when using an ipod in either his/my HU. And to think, it's one of the best rated units for Zune capability (and one of two really).

I'll post pics of my crossover so you see how I was able to bi-amp, and my amp showing the full on controls.

kawizx9r

Here's the amp I picked up just 2 days ago



Here are the speakers I picked up just a few weeks ago. If you take a close look at the crossover, you'll see 8 posts. 4 are inputs (2 for woofer and 2 for tweeter) and 4 outputs (again 2 for woofer 2 for tweeter) for bi-amping.

kawizx9r

This is an old picture, but here you'll see where I modified my sail panel to install my tweeters.

The woofers are in the door near my foot so there's a good distance between them even if they're on the same side.

EndersShadow

kawizx9r wrote: »

I bought the amp for it's features and I'll explain why.

Separately powering the components will allow in better control of the woofers and tweeters. I can manually set the gain a bit higher or lower to my liking, as well as benefit from the increased power the speakers have. Dynamics are there, whether at low or high volumes and they don't struggle when I turn the volume up. If anything, they keep getting louder and sound just as clear/punchy/dynamic as they do at low and moderate volumes. All speakers benefit from being fed clean power, and lots of it!

Now, the DSP features it came with are a plus. What really sold me is the Time Alignment and Parametric EQ and Active XO. Because I have components, my tweeters and woofers are all different distances from ME. The HU allows me to control time alignment as a WHOLE on the left OR right channel. With the components being bi-amped, I can manually control the time alignment for the left tweeter/left woofer/right tweeter/right woofer alone. This will allow me to dial in the time alignment even better since not all speakers are the same distance.

As for the crossover, I'm still using the stock passive crossover. It has inputs for bi-amping and outputs that go out to the tweeter and woofer so they're already crossed where they're supposed to be. One of these days though, I'm going to eliminate the passive crossover and utilize the active X-O in my amp.

I'll post pics of my crossover so you see how I was able to bi-amp, and my amp showing the full on controls.

kawizx9r wrote: »

If you take a close look at the crossover, you'll see 8 posts. 4 are inputs (2 for woofer and 2 for tweeter) and 4 outputs (again 2 for woofer 2 for tweeter) for bi-amping.

Thats the part I missed, I only have an input and then two outputs.

kawizx9r wrote: »

As for HU's, I have the X794. If you don't mind giving up detachable face and a cd player, I will suggest the KIV 700 or 900 (adds bluetooth built in). They offer full control over your Zune which is why my cousin purchased it. It has all the same features as the 794 in terms of TA/dsp but offers a color screen as well. My cousin though is rather disappointed in the interface because it takes awhile to read the Zune before playing, not nearly as quick as when using an ipod in either his/my HU. And to think, it's one of the best rated units for Zune capability (and one of two really).

I will have to check both of those out. I have a 32 gig Zune and honestly its more up to date than my CD collection. Slow load times are something I will definately have to read up on though....

So would you recommend I get an amp like yours and use the amps built in crossover for just my front set of components or just get a better amp (like the 4 channel Sundown) and run each set as its own channel?

I will probably be upgrading the HU now that I know there are a couple that can do Zune's, so more than likely I will get TA in some form.....

kawizx9r

Tossing you a PM

kawizx9r

All that talk about car audio makes me want to get in my car and start messing with my amp

kawizx9r

DSkip wrote: »

kaw, are you running rears? IIRC correctly, then you aren't. If that is the case, and making the assumption that the HU has three preouts, then what I would do is run two RCA's to the component amp (front and rear) and feed it as 4 separate channels. Then, you can run your tweets off the front channels and mids off the rears. This would mean you could adjust TA on both tweets and mids off your HU and not have to mess with TA on the amp.


Just my .02

Believe it or not I considered that!

Well since you mentioned it as well, I'll do just that. It's nice that the amp offers it for EACH channel separately but yeah it'd be a pain in the **** having to get off my **** and adjust the amp each and everytime.

But yes you are correct, I am not running rears.

Btw, what tweeter mounts did you want? Let me know via PM and I'll send them out soon bro.

EndersShadow

After going to talk to my friends today and have them fix my speaker (connection came undone in my door as suspected), I decided I am going to go with a Sundown SAX 100.4D amp for my speakers (rated 100w @ 10 volts) and a SAX 1200D for my sub.

Basically the amp for the fronts will give me a max of ~172 watts (that number is one they have measured themselves @ the shop), which is more than my speakers can handle and ~750 watts for the sub. Since the 1200D is 1 ohm stable if I were to add another Treo TE (dual 4 ohms wired to 2 ohm) I would be getting around 750ish per sub which is more than they can handle anyway. That would also save me a pretty penny since I only have to buy 1 sub and then a box, rather than two subs.

The guys @ the shop also told me that dual TE's would actually outperform 2 JL 10w6's which was very interesting to hear. Since I was looking @ 10w3's that is a pretty big deal.....

The pricing on both of these was a little more than the JL's I was looking at, but still pretty competitive (actually very competitive so I don't want to post it), and you get what you pay for. So I when the time comes I am going to have them do the install of both.

They seem to think the wiring would be fine as is which will save some extra cash. I might see how expensive it would be to go down to 2 or 0 gauge wire for the power. Then I could re-use the 4 gauge for the connections from the splitter to my amps (since they both recommend using 4 gauge power and ground connections).

I will say its funny how much bigger the 4 channel Sundown is than my MTX 404. Its like 3 times the size. The 1200D isnt much bigger than my JL 250/1.

Right now I am going to chase SPL and then get a better HU later with time alignment (maybe in the next car).