PLEASE HELP ME CHOOSE A SUBWOOFER; Elemental Designs A5 - 350 or HSU VTF-3 MK3 ???

TOOdamnFRANK

PLEASE DO NOT VOTE ON THE ATTACHED POLL / QUESTION UNLESS YOU HAVE HEARD EITHER SUBWOOFER OR VOTE ACCORDINGLY. THIS IS VERY SERIOUS TO ME AS I VERY WELL MAY BASE MY FINAL DECISION ON ITS RESULTS. THANKS IN ADVANCE TO ANYONE READING THIS AND WILLING TO HELP ME MAKE MY CHOICE BY RESPONDING OR EVEN JUST VOTING ON THE POLL ATTACHED TO THIS POST. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND EXPERTISE AS I AM STILL FAIRLY A NOVICE IN THE WORLD OF HOME AUDIO. SERIOUSLY, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU.

Back-story + Question
I put together a home theater setup in my house for my girlfriend and I recently, and while I love my Polk Audio PSW505 12" subwoofer, I think it is time for something with more of a chest punch or kick, something that can reach that magically 20hz barrier and slap it in the face a few times even at, or above, moderate listening volumes. I have found 2 subs that are perfect for our home and its modest setup, but I need helping choosing between the two subwoofers, as after hearing both in action this past weekend, granted it was not in my own room,I still cant decide. I know everyone has their own tastes and preferences so I am hoping to get some opinions from people who have actually purchased or heard either of these subs as well or a similar one from the same companies for their opinion on how they sound in home and how they have held up over time. I'm not looking to get bombarded with any new suggestions as I have gone through massive lists of suggestions and forum posts that other people have made in the past on this and other sites for months already and have narrowed it down to these two based on those findings, a few listening parties thanks to some new friends I made, as well as my own factors that matter most to me like; reviews, craftsmanship, size, sound quality, overall value, availability, design, room size, company reputation, customer service, and most important what my girlfriend will allow me to put in our living room as well as just how much I can spend without her not talking to me for a week. So please try to keep in mind that I have spent a lot of time already narrowing it down to these two subwoofers based on my own opinions and would just like some opinions from other home theater lovers about the in home sound, performance, how they've held up over time, how they look with your furniture in the house, and overall quality of these two in particular based on what they have heard with their own ears or seen with their own eyes. Now for the two magical to me, yet possibly moderate to you, subwoofers in question;


1) 15" A5 - 350 from Elemental Designs (ED)
2) 12" VTF-3 MK3 from HSU Research (HSU)


Additional Information

The whole system is generally used as follows;
75% Movie Watching
20% PS3 / Computer Gaming
5% Music Listening

And as of right now my 7.1 system looks like this;
FRONT - Polk Monitor 70's
SIDE - Polk Monitor 60's
REAR - Polk Monitor 60's
CENTER - Polk CS2
CURRENT SUB - Polk 12" PSW505
RECEIVER - Onkyo TX-NR808
SOURCES - PS3, CUSTOM HTPC, Gemini iTT SE Professional Turntable, ...


TO RECAP;
Which of the 2 subwoofers, (ED A5-350 or VTF-3 MK3),
would you recommend or even purchase yourself at the same price?


*I noticed the ED A5-350 being a 15inch subwoofer was about 3 to 4 db louder by comparison than the HSU VTF-3 MK3 at all times from around 20Hz up to 120, but my setup currently wouldn't even get close enough to either subs volume limits to make this an issue or consideration yet. They're both plenty loud enough for our modest setup. Regardless, please try to keep in mind I will be upgrading the other speakers eventually as time goes on, but the sub will be the first / now. I am a bassist in my spare time and love the low end. So Im only looking for subwoofer advice right now. When I upgrade the rest of the system I will be sure to ask for everyone's advice and regretfully waste their time then too. :)HAHA

TOOdamnFRANK

still no replies from anyone on this side?
man thats a bummer...
I'm leaning heavily toward the Elemental Designs sub right now... I knew I would probably go this way, as I am afraid, like most of us, that if I get a 12" sub over a 15" one I will always wonder to myself when I watch the latest action flick; "Man that movie sounded awesome. So much freaking bass from one movie, that was nuts, but... I wonder how much louder that extra surface area if I had bought that 15" sub I wanted could have made that movie."

Phacoman

I voted for the VTF 3.3. I own one and it's sweet. To be fair, I've never heard the ED sub.

I upgraded from the Hsu STF 2 to my current VTF 3.3 and it has blown my mind. I must say though that I use mine differently than the other person above. I always run it in max extension mode to really dig down to those sub-20 Hz levels. There's still tons of headroom and it rocks my whole theater with the volume knob still only turned up to about 10 o'clock. There is never a need to switch to max output mode. I'd rather get those crazy deep tones. I do that for both movies and music, including concert blu-rays. There's nothing quite like hearing a bass guitar and a bass drum sound the way they're really meant to.

K-daugh

can my mirage even hold a candle to these??serious question

K-daugh

Rick88 wrote: »

I am not familiar with that particular model, but I have owned 2 Mirage subs in the past (Omni S8 and Prestige S10). They were both very good subs, especially for music. They offer very clean, tight, musical bass. But for movies they aren't the best. They just don't go as low or have the output as others such as HSU,SVS,ED,etc.

thanks rick.....i plan on upgrading soon its number 2 on my list....just have not made up my mind what i want, considering i only wanna spend 500 bones(see my thread over at subwoofer hookup and management)i have no problem going used ....i should save 550 then sell my mirage for 300-350 and buy dual epik legends......number 1 on my list is an amp though 3 or 5 channel

dorokusai

Hsu.

spock 2054

I think the best thing to do is listen to both subs in your room, and let your ears and girlfriend decide. Is this a large room? Posting a picture would help. See which vendor pays for shipping if you don't like the product. They are heavy. If you have the budget and the room, I would vote for 2 of the ED subs.

I've been messing with the bass guitar too for a few years. Most former dj's are frustrated musicians.:cool: A bigger (15 inch) speaker with a ported cab is usually better for good low end grunt. Been enjoying the Ampeg BA-115 for 7 years now. The little Ampeg ss-70 with 2 10 inch celestion drivers was utilized with my Curbow bass until the upgrade to the 115...

Mudbug844

I also have the VTF-2 MK3. Base I have never heard before. Feel it thru out the whole house. Love it.

mystik610

TOOdamnFRANK wrote: »

still no replies from anyone on this side?
man thats a bummer...
I'm leaning heavily toward the Elemental Designs sub right now... I knew I would probably go this way, as I am afraid, like most of us, that if I get a 12" sub over a 15" one I will always wonder to myself when I watch the latest action flick; "Man that movie sounded awesome. So much freaking bass from one movie, that was nuts, but... I wonder how much louder that extra surface area if I had bought that 15" sub I wanted could have made that movie."

How big is your room? Unless you have a HUGE room, you'd be hard pressed to push either of these subs to their excursion limits without seriously overpowering your mains. The big difference, IMO, is the sound quality between the two subs.

I've got a VTF 3.3 at home....a buddy of mine used to have the A5 - 350 before he moved into his town home, and even he had a little bit of buyers remorse after hearing my HSU. I actually demoed the HSU against the SVS PB12 in my home, and sent the SVS packing.....sound quality is what did it for me. HSU subs, to my ears, sound much cleaner than their competitors. Airy, nuanced bass without the slightest hint of boominess.

Plus with the VTF 3.3, you benefit from the variable tuning modes....which others here have touched on. I tend prefer running mine in the unofficial 'overdamped mode' (one port open, switch set to max output). This still gives respectable output below 18hz, but is much stronger and tighter in the more active 25-50ish hz zone. FYI, most large, ported subs (ie the A5 - 350) tend to be looser in the very active 25-50hz region....this is why I think a lot of people prefer sealed subs, or variable tuning subs with one or more ports plugged (from SVS, HSU etc).

Anyway, my ears like the overdamped mode, but a lot of others seem to prefer the max extension mode....the point is though, you have the ability to choose the tuning modes to suit your tastes.

just my 2 cents.

mystik610

Rick88 wrote: »

Yep, in maximum extention mode it goes down to around 18hz. I have never had a sub with output below about 23hz before. With all those reference Blu-Ray movies for sound quality (you know the ones;)), I am experiencing bass like never before. This thing shakes the house with quality non-boomy bass. And I only have the level knob on the sub at about the 9:30 position...

It actually goes well below 18hz at a respectable level in max extension mode in my experience. Even in max output mode, the VTF 3.3 will play down to 18hz or lower...the big difference in my experence is at about 15hz.

It's easy to build a sub that will hit hard down into the sub-sonic frequencies...just use a big nasty woofer, with big ports, and fire away. I think the key to HSU subs is the 'non-boomy bass'. The VTF 3.3 hits those sub-sonic frequencies with finesse...not the slightest hint of boom....just room pressurizing air!

TOOdamnFRANK

As of right now I am taking a huge lean towards the ED A5 - 350, or I might get two of them, it can hit some lower frequencies the HSU can't without making some dreaded port chuffing noise (but it only becomes obvious below 20Hz anyway), the sound actually even sounds tighter on the ED even though its bigger, and its about 4db louder across the board. Not to knock the HSU, it is still one of my top two choice for under a grand, I just think I'm going to go with ED, but I'm not totally sure yet because I might not feel like waiting for ED to put me on their list and hand make my sub, which apparently can take around 2 months... I hate waiting. Im an American and I want what I want when I want it. Grrrr dont they get that. HAHA
Anyway, according to the almighty / now infamous "craigsub" subwoofer list and sequel forum sub lists that rank and rate all the subwoofer giants, the ED ranks somewhere around #9 and the HSU ends up somewhere around #11, but when you factor in that the other subwoofers on the lists top 20 seem to cost between $1,500 - $6,000, they both become all that more impressive at under a thousand bucks. Thanks for the replies guys. I was hoping I might hear more from some of the HSU and ED sub owners out there, but I guess aside from the few of you who posted already, there aren't many people around willing to take chances on internet direct companies, or things made in the good old US of A.

unbridled_id

I own(ed) the HSU vtf2 mk2 and think it is a good sub. If you are concerned with port noise you should consider one the the new NHT sealed subs (I have an order in for the B10-d).

http://www.nhthifi.com/Subwoofers

Peter_Klim

I'm not sure what you're wating for? Almost everyone at this thread is saying they either have the HSU (I do) or highly recommend it, but nothing much on your other choice. Get the HSU!!

Uxi

Just went to the Hsu open house yesterday where they demoed their new VTF-15h. It was incredible... but it is gigantic. If you have the space, get that.

I was leaning VTF-2 mk3 before, but it's a bit too big for my living room. If/when I ever get around to a dedicated theater, then I'll be getting a VTF-15h for sure.

K-daugh

unbridled_id wrote: »

I own(ed) the HSU vtf2 mk2 and think it is a good sub. If you are concerned with port noise you should consider one the the new NHT sealed subs (I have an order in for the B10-d).

http://www.nhthifi.com/Subwoofers

what are the advantages/disadvantages of ported or sealed subs

Peter_Klim

Uxi wrote: »

Just went to the Hsu open house yesterday where they demoed their new VTF-15h. It was incredible... but it is gigantic. If you have the space, get that.

I was leaning VTF-2 mk3 before, but it's a bit too big for my living room. If/when I ever get around to a dedicated theater, then I'll be getting a VTF-15h for sure.

Oh, yeah? How was it? Big turnout? I was gonna go but I'm sick. Did you get your free t-shirt?

mystik610

Uxi wrote: »

Just went to the Hsu open house yesterday where they demoed their new VTF-15h. It was incredible... but it is gigantic. If you have the space, get that.

I was leaning VTF-2 mk3 before, but it's a bit too big for my living room. If/when I ever get around to a dedicated theater, then I'll be getting a VTF-15h for sure.

Whoa...just looked this up. It doesn't look much bigger than the VTF-3 MKIII...4 inches taller, but similar everywhere else.

To the OP, the ED may have had some merit compared to the VTF-3, but based on the specs I'd expect the VTF-15 to be better all the way around. From the looks of it, the VTF-15 should be able to hang with the likes of the SVS PB-13 ultra, but for quite a bit cheaper. They don't list the output below 20hz (they do list a frequency response of 15-200hz though), but 114db at 20hz is impressive!

Matt34

mystik610 wrote: »

Whoa...just looked this up. It doesn't look much bigger than the VTF-3 MKIII...4 inches taller, but similar everywhere else.

To the OP, the ED may have had some merit compared to the VTF-3, but based on the specs I'd expect the VTF-15 to be better all the way around. From the looks of it, the VTF-15 should be able to hang with the likes of the SVS PB-13 ultra, but for quite a bit cheaper. They don't list the output below 20hz (they do list a frequency response of 15-200hz though), but 114db at 20hz is impressive!

I can't bring it up on my work computer but the according to the CEIDA 2010 output numbers I've seen of the new HSU it has more clean output than the PB-13. If I don't DIY my next subs I'll probably pick up one of these.

TOOdamnFRANK

The new VTF-15H from HSU is really making my decision a tough one, the only thing is that the new VTF-15H will be over $1000 shipped compared to $800 shipped on the ED..... Thats 25% more cash for the HSU, but would it be more than 25% better performance wise? The other thing is that I don't really like the look of the new HSU and my girlfriend saw it last night and hated the look. Im sure I can talk her into it, but I dont know if I can get used to the look of it, unless it blew me away, literally. AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH WHAT TO DO?!?!?!

Erik Tracy

TOOdamnFRANK wrote: »

The new VTF-15H from HSU is really making my decision a tough one, the only thing is that the new VTF-15H will be over $1000 shipped compared to $800 shipped on the ED..... Thats 25% more cash for the HSU, but would it be more than 25% better performance wise? The other thing is that I don't really like the look of the new HSU and my girlfriend saw it last night and hated the look. Im sure I can talk her into it, but I dont know if I can get used to the look of it, unless it blew me away, literally. AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH WHAT TO DO?!?!?!

You know the old saying...time to **** or get off the pot! :biggrin:

The voting results say HSU, but only you can decide.

Ron Temple

Matt34 wrote: »

I can't bring it up on my work computer but the according to the CEIDA 2010 output numbers I've seen of the new HSU it has more clean output than the PB-13. If I don't DIY my next subs I'll probably pick up one of these.

According to Ilkka's numbers from 3+ years ago, the Ultra has a slight advantage until the 40-100hz average SPL (this was the BASH platform). The Hsu pulls away there by 2-3db. Don't know how the Sledge platform will measure up. I'd guess the Ultra pulls away down low and gets closer and might equal up top. That said, the Hsu has impressive short term measurable output at it's price and since few, if anyone, will run either of these subs at their limits (or shouldn't), it looks like a real bargain. A shot across the bow to SVS, Epik and CHT.

mystik610

TOOdamnFRANK wrote: »

The new VTF-15H from HSU is really making my decision a tough one, the only thing is that the new VTF-15H will be over $1000 shipped compared to $800 shipped on the ED..... Thats 25% more cash for the HSU, but would it be more than 25% better performance wise? The other thing is that I don't really like the look of the new HSU and my girlfriend saw it last night and hated the look. Im sure I can talk her into it, but I dont know if I can get used to the look of it, unless it blew me away, literally. AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH WHAT TO DO?!?!?!

I'd fork out the extra cash for the VTF-15 and never look back. Subs tend to be a pretty big long-term purchase....not only because of the price, but because of how much of a pain in the ****$ they are to pack up and sell. So shoot for the best you can afford IMO and be done with it. The VTF-15 is a tremendous value at the introductory price. I'd get one myself if I wouldn't have to go through the trouble of selling my VTF-3.

Whether or not its 25% better than the ED-A5 is hard to quantify, but what you do gain is more output across the board, 3 tuning modes, and far better sound quality (based on my comparison of other HSU and ED subs anyway).

As far as the aesthetics, most subs look a lot better in person. HSU's satin black finish is actually pretty nice. The triangular ports are admittedly kind of funky, but when it comes to subs, function is more important than form IMO. My wife hates my sub mostly because of the size of the enclosure itself....she got over it eventually

dorokusai

I'd also choose the HSU and wouldn't buy anything from ED.

TOOdamnFRANK

dorokusai wrote: »

I'd also choose the HSU and wouldn't buy anything from ED.

Why is that?

TOOdamnFRANK

My main concern with the new HSU is that the specs are very askew on the new CEIDA 2010 output method as it goes by something like .3 second burst to measure the db and claims 1400 short terms rms when it only has 460 watts max and 300 something rms, i am no electrician but how that is healthy or even possible is beyond me and would be way distorted and not useful at all for HT use where the low notes last a lot longer than .3 seconds at a time. Those super low rumbles can go on for what feels like forever and blow your sub to pieces if you tried to make itoutput that type of db levels long term, which is why SVS isnt putting its 13ultra in the new audioholics sub $3000 shoot out coming up only their 12, this new test method is very skewed from what ive seen/heard/read/asked/been told, by the likes of craigsub, and other forum heavy hitters, in the other forums around town. Which is another reason why he, craigsub, tells customers his big bad boy multi 18" enclosures with the passive radiators hit multiple decibels lower than what CEIDA 2010 rates them at. Those askew 2010 ratings allow something like 70% distortion level and record for only .3 second bursts so i dont really trust those charts as far as i can throw them. yes it is nice to have a common test method to rate and rank subs but i think this one isnt a very realistic one with its regulations allowing for over +6db gains over real world, use-able read outs.

Ron Temple

TOOdamnFRANK wrote: »

My main concern with the new HSU is that the specs are very askew on the new CEIDA 2010 output method as it goes by something like .3 second burst to measure the db and claims 1400 short terms rms when it only has 460 watts max and 300 something rms, i am no electrician but how that is healthy or even possible is beyond me and would be way distorted and not useful at all for HT use where the low notes last a lot longer than .3 seconds at a time. Those super low rumbles can go on for what feels like forever and blow your sub to pieces if you tried to make itoutput that type of db levels long term, which is why SVS isnt putting its 13ultra in the new audioholics sub $3000 shoot out coming up only their 12, this new test method is very skewed from what ive seen/heard/read/asked/been told, by the likes of craigsub, and other forum heavy hitters, in the other forums around town. Which is another reason why he, craigsub, tells customers his big bad boy multi 18" enclosures with the passive radiators hit multiple decibels lower than what CEIDA 2010 rates them at. Those askew 2010 ratings allow something like 70% distortion level and record for only .3 second bursts so i dont really trust those charts as far as i can throw them. yes it is nice to have a common test method to rate and rank subs but i think this one isnt a very realistic one with its regulations allowing for over +6db gains over real world, use-able read outs.

I agree that the CEA output numbers aren't sustainable, but the methodology should only be used comparatively. Craig has posted that he gets about a 4-6db increase in output when he uses that method. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on CEA2010. What you should look at are box/driver along with the amp. The new Hsu will be the loudest sub that they produce and might rival, maybe exceed an Ultra13 at some frequencies on some material. It won't touch Craig's 18.2. I've spoken to Craig about this, he thinks an Ultra will smoke it in real world playback, but I've got an open mind about it (after all he has a boat in the race) I'm sure, in most rooms, within it's limits, it's a monster and Hsu makes great sounding subs. Would I say it's a better sub than an Ultra, no, nor an Empire, nor a CHT (though it's much prettier as of now), but it's going to be competitive and it's priced in that Empire/18.1 area. It's certainly something to consider.

Knowing Hsu, there's little risk that this sub will have the problems of the MFW 15, which was similarly powered. The guy designs great subs. I'm not trying to sway you. Just trying to be fair. Those output numbers, IMO, are misleading which is why there's so much speculation about them, but CEA2010 is a valid procedure that is getting used more and more. They should never have posted halfspace numbers though...raises too many flags.

thsmith

I have owned the HSU 3 3 but before I give my opinion knowing your room cubic feet is a must.

My room is 4kcf with a opening into another room that is about half that so total 6kcf.

The 3 3 was great but I was bottoming the driver in my room. Went to SVS PB13 and never looked back.

I believe if my room was closed off with just 4kcf I would have stayed with HSU. Thier CS is much like Polks, hard to beat.

Face

eD makes a good sub for the money, I'm happy with my A5-300 for home theater.

TOOdamnFRANK

my main concern at this point is that whichever way i go i will always wonder what if i went with the other sub. This is something everyone has to live with in the world of home theater / audio. Oh well Im gonna jump on one of them next month and stop torturing myself. I'm sure whichever way I go I wont be disappointed, I am coming up from two PSW505(s) after all. (not to knock the PSW505, but I can not, and should not, compare it to either of these on price or performance)

mystik610

TOOdamnFRANK wrote: »

my main concern at this point is that whichever way i go i will always wonder what if i went with the other sub. This is something everyone has to live with in the world of home theater / audio. Oh well Im gonna jump on one of them next month and stop torturing myself. I'm sure whichever way I go I wont be disappointed, I am coming up from two PSW505(s) after all. (not to knock the PSW505, but I can not, and should not, compare it to either of these on price or performance)

The easiest way to settle it once and for all and never look back is to have both shipped, audition them against one another, and pay to have one of them shipped back. That's what I did between my HSU VTF-3 MKIII and an SVS PB-12 NSD.