External vs Internal Crossovers
mrbigbluelight
Posts: 9,790
I didn't want to slop up Vr3MxStyler2k3's thread on a crossover project he was doing, but he mentioned something that I've been wondering about for awhile:
Why don't DIY'ers go external on crossover projects ?
I can understand why manufacturers don't; hard enough shipping speakers without worrying about something else external getting damaged. UPS and FedEx aren't necessarily our friends.
But going external would give you a lot more freedom to lay out components on a PCB; no need to stack components, etc. Lay it out to where it is functional, to be sure, but also ..... looks cool.
I know "looks" don't affect sound and that's not the primary objective of a project, but that'd be part of the fun. Wouldn't even have to restrict yourself to one flat PCB board; heck, make it round, make a pyramid shape, make it ..... ? External opens up experimentation.
Put the external crossover in an external box (of some sort) or have it "open for inspection", ie, acrylic or plexiglass box.
Sealing any enclosure penetration shouldn't be a problem.
This would require addition lengths of wiring that shouldn't affect the signal path/quality as I would assume if you're DIY, you're using quality components.
Also, an external crossover would allow for easier down-the-road tweaking.
The "I wonder what the affect would be if I *fill-in-the-blank*" itch would be a lot easier to scratch externally.
Just wondering; I don't have any plans on opening up any R15's in the near future.
Why don't DIY'ers go external on crossover projects ?
I can understand why manufacturers don't; hard enough shipping speakers without worrying about something else external getting damaged. UPS and FedEx aren't necessarily our friends.
But going external would give you a lot more freedom to lay out components on a PCB; no need to stack components, etc. Lay it out to where it is functional, to be sure, but also ..... looks cool.
I know "looks" don't affect sound and that's not the primary objective of a project, but that'd be part of the fun. Wouldn't even have to restrict yourself to one flat PCB board; heck, make it round, make a pyramid shape, make it ..... ? External opens up experimentation.
Put the external crossover in an external box (of some sort) or have it "open for inspection", ie, acrylic or plexiglass box.
Sealing any enclosure penetration shouldn't be a problem.
This would require addition lengths of wiring that shouldn't affect the signal path/quality as I would assume if you're DIY, you're using quality components.
Also, an external crossover would allow for easier down-the-road tweaking.
The "I wonder what the affect would be if I *fill-in-the-blank*" itch would be a lot easier to scratch externally.
Just wondering; I don't have any plans on opening up any R15's in the near future.
Sal Palooza
Post edited by mrbigbluelight on
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People do this with Magnepan speakers all the time!Truck setup
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Many DIY's do this while designing and voicing crossovers, but most end up installing them inside when all the tweaking is done."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Many DIY's do this while designing and voicing crossovers, but most end up installing them inside when all the tweaking is done.
I'm with you on this one.
I've done this with speakers with hard to access xovers.
And I usually end up putting them back in the cabinets when I'm satisfied with the desired results. -
Why do you guys put them back in? Just curious- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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If you saw the size of the crossovers from my living room speakers, you would do the same.
For my Tannoy's, I kept them external in boxes that match the veneer of my speakers."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Before I got into active speakers I have put the hi pass and low pass sections in separate small external boxes on a couple of my DIY designs.It makes for easy access but does increase wire clutter.
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Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »Why do you guys put them back in? Just curious
I've got so much audio gear laying everywhere I'd probably step on them if I didn't. -
Running the crossover external means you do have the extra sets of wires running from the back of your speakers; 3-way speakers would have three extra sets of connections etc. When I built my custom crossovers, I just wanted to house them in the cabinet to keep things simple. The new ones fit very well, so it was just easier, plus they look good.
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A few reasons why I always end up with internal crossovers.
1) Too many wires with external crossovers. Plus, do you flip polarity at the tweeter or not? A personal choice that might cause unnecessary troubleshooting.
2) How often do you move the speakers? If I design in my 'lab', but they're meant for the living room, that's just more tearing down and setting up everytime I want to tweak something
3) External crossovers just aren't sexy enough for me to do that.
There's nothing wrong with it, but I don't see the point unless the crossovers get their own transparent enclosures for show. -
Another reason to go external, capacitors, resistors, inductors, and wire are all susceptible to microphonics. Electrolytic capacitors are the worst offenders, which is another reason to avoid them when possible."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Jake, is that a Forte II you're tweaking? How do they sound with the Jantzen Superior Z cap?
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Another reason to go external, capacitors, resistors, inductors, and wire are all susceptible to microphonics. Electrolytic capacitors are the worst offenders, which is another reason to avoid them when possible.
I have never heard of microphonics being an issue with inductors or resistors but Film caps can be susceptable to them aswell as other caps like ceramics.You could always do what Wilson Audio does, pot the whole xover in epoxy. -
I have never heard of microphonics being an issue with inductors or resistors but Film caps can be susceptable to them aswell as other caps like ceramics.You could always do what Wilson Audio does, pot the whole xover in epoxy.
What about heat dissipation?____________________
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Sonus Faber does the same thing in their higher end speakers.
FYI, Duelund now has 3 series of caps, plain paper in oil, PIO dipped in resin for dampening, and also the CAST which is PIO pressure cast in resin."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
If you mean the lack of with the potting? I believe at least on some models the resistors are left unpotted and mounted to little heat sinks.What about heat dissipation? -
There's nothing wrong with it, but I don't see the point unless the crossovers get their own transparent enclosures for show.
That's what sort of what got me to thinking about the external crossover thing.
I was jumping around on the internet, looking up Harman Kardon "stuff", and came across their GLA-55 speakers:
I personally think that they look like something you'd find in the foyer of a French ....... uhm ..... "entertainment center". (although they are supposed to have excellent sound, which they should at $1200 a pair).
But .... if one owned a set of GLA-55's, there'd be a temptation to not only listen to them, but also "watch" them. Wouldn't affect their sound quality at all, but ..... it would be hard to avoid "watching" them.
Kind of like running speakers without the grill covers; it's, well .... fun to watch the drivers while listening. Bad example, I suppose, because removing the grills does affect dispersion, etc. but .....
There is a point, to be sure, at which things definitely would turn just plain gimmicky; Onkyo has a set of speakers with enclosures that are meant to vibrate, like a violin soundboard, which is just .... well .... to each his own.Sal Palooza -
Jake, is that a Forte II you're tweaking? How do they sound with the Jantzen Superior Z cap?
I have the original Fortes, and so far have built the new crossovers, dynamated the drivers, and installed Mortite for the seals. I may replace the horn diaphragms down the road, the the speakers sound pretty fantastic right now.
The new crossovers are excellent. I used all Jantzen Audio components (except the new Bob Crites autotransfomers): for the tweeter I used Silver Z-Caps, for the mids I used Superior Z-Caps, for the bass I used Standard Z-Cap, for the resistors I used Jantzen's MOX resistors, the bass inductor is their C-Coil toroidal model, and an air-core inductor for the tweeter. It's a great combo of components that works very well together, and has improved the sound of my Fortes from top to bottom (including better bass response). I will be using Jantzen for all my rebuilds or upgrades now whether speakers or electronics. -
Wow, those are some very serious upgrades from the stock network. I'm getting Forte I's that are already fully pimped out with Bob Crites' crossovers, new internal wiring, upgraded titanium diaphragm for the tweeter and polymer for the mid.
I will be dynamatting the woofers and mortiting the drivers as soon as I get them. They made such a positive improvement in sound in my stock Forte II. -
Congrats! I looked at Bob's crossovers, but wanted to build my own and didn't want Sonicaps. I did not redo the internal wiring and it may be a project for the future, but I'm enjoying the sound of them now.
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IMO, the Standard caps are awful in electronics. YMMV.I will be using Jantzen for all my rebuilds or upgrades now whether speakers or electronics."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
I would be using either the Silver or the Superior, or a combination of the two. Jantzen also has newer Silver Gold Z-Caps which look interested, but are only available in limited values. Using the Standard Z-caps in my speaker crossovers was out of the signal path, but good advice Face. I think a full build with the Silvers would be quiet lovely. I'll keep ya'll update in the next few months as I have a project in mind.
