Very interesting article on "The Great Divergence"
Jstas
Posts: 14,808
http://www.slate.com/id/2266025/entry/2266026/
Well, it's a series of 4 articles, the latest one getting published today.
The whole series is about this divergence that is becoming increasingly apparent and is eroding the "middle class". Not just here but in Europe as well. It addresses the accusations that computers and automation has put many Americans out of jobs and modestly skilled labor. It really is an interesting read. Has some obvious points in it to anyone who has been paying attention the past few years but still offers insight and perspective that isn't readily apparent. It's worth a read, maybe good lunch break reading fodder?
Well, it's a series of 4 articles, the latest one getting published today.
The whole series is about this divergence that is becoming increasingly apparent and is eroding the "middle class". Not just here but in Europe as well. It addresses the accusations that computers and automation has put many Americans out of jobs and modestly skilled labor. It really is an interesting read. Has some obvious points in it to anyone who has been paying attention the past few years but still offers insight and perspective that isn't readily apparent. It's worth a read, maybe good lunch break reading fodder?
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You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
Post edited by Jstas on
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Thanks! I've made it through the first page, and it promises to at least be a thought proving series. I've also felt for some time that the growing disparity in income will eventually trigger some large scale problems. It seems to me to be common sense. That doesn't mean I'm for income redistribution as it's often referred to, but I do see a problem when CEOs make as much as 10,000 times the average wage of the employees. It just doesn't seem sustainable for anyone, and it seems most intolerable for those further down the scale. Really, is a CEO 10,000 times more productive than the average employee in larger companies?Turntable: Empire 208
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Exactly! Redistribution of wealth? It's already happened! The have's keep taking more. They have the money to practically buy a politician who then supports policy that enables the money people to MAKE EVEN MORE MONEY!
Then when the common people want to reverse this insidious trend, the have's complain about redistribution of wealth.
The middle class is something the government had to create through policy. The minimum wage is one example of that. Anyone for pure Capitalism? Look at China. See how much the workers make there?
Just for kicks and giggles, do a little research on how much more CEO's made vs. their workers back in the 1950's. It wasn't 10,000 times more. -
Interesting. Any bets on how long before the usual crowd starts calling this socialist, communist propaganda?Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
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Interesting. Any bets on how long before the usual crowd starts calling this socialist, communist propaganda?
Any bets on when someone baits them into it? Hint : post 4.If you will it, dude, it is no dream. -
bobman1235 wrote: »Any bets on when someone baits them into it? Hint : post 4.
I dunno. Post #3 came awfully close.
I had no intentions of this being political but I shouldn't have underestimated this audience. They can turn monkeys throwing poo at rabies infected rats in banana trees into a political argument. :rolleyes:Expert Moron Extraordinaire
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The politics of rabid, fecal nanner throwin' monkeys? Really???? With "infections"??????
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bobman1235 wrote: »Any bets on when someone baits them into it? Hint : post 4.
The only bait they need is something, or somebody, that does not agree with their view of the world.
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An interesting article that never really touches down. It's fine in eliminating the 'usual suspects' and provoking people to rethink knee-jerk reactions to this issue...but where is the discussion about globalization and the transformation of the world's workforce...and the non-local nature of Capital, etc. Not that I have the 'answers'....IMHO, the world's economy has become too complex for 'economists' and their outdated models.
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An interesting article that never really touches down. It's fine in eliminating the 'usual suspects' and provoking people to rethink knee-jerk reactions to this issue...but where is the discussion about globalization and the transformation of the world's workforce...and the non-local nature of Capital, etc. Not that I have the 'answers'....IMHO, the world's economy has become too complex for 'economists' and their outdated models.
cnh
I got the impression there were more installments to come. If not, I totally agree with your assessment.
Chris -
The existance of a "middle class" was a short term thing.
History has always been about a few haves and a buttload of have-nots.
Welcome to reality."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
Take a walk and find some people who really are in the lower class, and then tell me there's not a middle class.
The chasm between the middle class and the upper class may be growing at a huge rate, but the assertion that there's suddenly no distinction between the dirt poor and the working class makes little to no sense to me.If you will it, dude, it is no dream. -
My comment was based on the fact that until the last 150 years,
there really wasn't much of a middle class. That came with the industrial revolution,
and most of the world didn't have one.
The trend is it's going away along with the industry that created it.
Yes, I know what true poor is. I've spent time in the third world.
A few places are starting to get one, like India and China, but here
it's fading away in numbers and buying power. I'm not casting blame.
But it's pretty hard not to notice. Happy talk isn't going to fix it.
Neither is bitching about it. Only manufacturing really creates
wealth, and it's just not here any more."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
Some facts for how rich you really are:
50 percentile - $34,511 yearly income
25 percentile - $69,834 yearly income
10 percentile - 118,626 yearly income
So if you make $70k/year your in the top 10% of all earners in the US. If you're top 10% does that make you middle class? Inquiring minds want to know. -
An interesting article that never really touches down. It's fine in eliminating the 'usual suspects' and provoking people to rethink knee-jerk reactions to this issue...but where is the discussion about globalization and the transformation of the world's workforce...and the non-local nature of Capital, etc. Not that I have the 'answers'....IMHO, the world's economy has become too complex for 'economists' and their outdated models.
cnh
That's nice and I'm glad your soft spot for China comes out again but the article wasn't about China or the world. It was about the U.S. last I checked, we still weren't China.Expert Moron Extraordinaire
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Why aren't Americans more concerned about income disparity? The article suggested our belief in social upward mobility had helped stop the alarm from sounding. That's not a bad point at all- we're sold on upward mobility from early school age. Examples of those who have 'made' it are all around.
I'm not sure what good an alarm would have done, though. Can protest in the street stop globalization? Could any legislation? Of course not. -
Exactly! Redistribution of wealth? It's already happened! The have's keep taking more. They have the money to practically buy a politician who then supports policy that enables the money people to MAKE EVEN MORE MONEY!
Then when the common people want to reverse this insidious trend, the have's complain about redistribution of wealth.
The middle class is something the government had to create through policy. The minimum wage is one example of that. Anyone for pure Capitalism? Look at China. See how much the workers make there?
Just for kicks and giggles, do a little research on how much more CEO's made vs. their workers back in the 1950's. It wasn't 10,000 times more.
Interesting thought process. Nobody I know who works at minimum wage would be considered middle class. Unions had a great deal to do with creating that. If you have a problem with policy,shouldn't you vote out those creating it ? Have a problem with what Ceo's make....then don't buy their products,don't buy their stock. Oh wait....I bet your 401k or pension plan is invested highly in these companies who pay their CEO's outragious money,from which you benefit down the road.
Yes,I and most of this country is for free markets and capitalism. That has made us what we are today in the shortest time when compared to others around the globe. Redistribution of wealth only means you take a dollar away from someone who is working for it and give it to someone who is not. Sounds fair.:rolleyes: If you prescribe to such a notion though,you can start right now by sending me 100 dollars. Thank you very much and will look forward to your kind redistribution.HT SYSTEM-
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'the middle class is something the government had to create through policy." Leftcoast
This is serious? I guess I should read all the posts. Leftcoast, I'm guessing your name choice wasn't ironic. Pure capitalism is not what China is an example of, btw.
I know something the government created from policy; The Great Depression -
'the middle class is something the government had to create through policy." Leftcoast
This is serious? I guess I should read all the posts. Leftcoast, I'm guessing your name choice wasn't ironic. Pure capitalism is not what China is an example of, btw.
I know something the government created from policy; The Great Depression
Government created it? I don't think so. They didn't fix it, either.
They band-aided it. The industrial explosion during and after WWII
is what ended it. And it created the middle class as we define it today.
A look around a lot of college campuses shows a lot of Chinese students.
Ten years from now, they won't need our engineers and technical people.
Or our business leaders. Many of the big name American brands being made
in China will be replaced by pure Chinese companies. Anybody who can't
see that coming isn't looking very hard. Welcome to globalization."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
Why aren't Americans more concerned about income disparity?
Because at the end of the day, our eyes see our 2.1 kids, 2 cars in the garage, a house, a dog, high def TV, and takeout dinner on the table and we look just like the middle class family on the TV sitcoms and on commercials so we think, "hey, we're doing alright. We're middle class."
All of that came to a screeching halt when one spouse or both lose their jobs, there's no more credit to extend, and there's negative equity in the house. Bye, bye middle class. -
Suckstobeme; A lot of people think the same as you do about the Great depression. I was taught the New Deal saved us. I thought I could come up with a quick single line or two but I can't! You can have me publically whipped at noon. I've read the new explanations offerred by libertarians and conservativea, but the subject is still too technical for me. There is a growing movement in economics that the government caused the Great in the Great depression. Europe had a depression too-but it wasn't a great depression. What made ousr great? We passed a very high tarriff and this stopped trade because many of the goods previously imported now were not profitable. The New Deal spent money the government should not have on programs that were not cost effective. That is what we did today with the stimulus. We passed a minimum wage which was difficult for many struggling businesses to pay and they went out of business. The Fed reserve played a role too, but this area I'm not able to understand fully- they did not print enough money. Sound's good, right? Not printing money? People were not buying goods and started to horde cash. We attempted to save banks and businesses and this delayed the inevitable.
I"m afraid my answer was not satisfactory, I've been trying various reference sites today.Wikipedia does not have a bad overview of the various theories. There was an american history site that took a more conventional view. We didn't put a bandaide on it,trouble was, the government was too involved.
"Because at the end of the day, our eyes see our 2.1 kids, 2 cars in the garage, a house, a dog, high def TV, and takeout dinner on the table and we look just like the middle class family on the TV sitcoms and on commercials so we think, "hey, we're doing alright. We're middle class." Fatchowmein
That's pretty good. The poor of the future will have big screen interactive tvs. They'll have video games. Wal Mart Citizens -
When I want to know about the great depression, I go ask the people that were there.:D
My mom has way to much insight into it from a up close and
personal level. But the reality is their crash was just like our current crash
in many ways. A small number of insiders were creating maket swings in tech
stocks of the day. Many investors were tossing money in because it seemed
to be a never ending money ride. The stuff that happened at Enron, Worldcom
and Nortel were replays of past tricks. And of course, the result was the same.
The tarriffs were a bad idea that didn't help. The new deal maybe
wasn't all that great. History paints a different picture than reality.
FDR wasn't god. But like many events in history, the winners write the book."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
My father grew up during the Great Depression.
You eat everything on your plate before you ask for seconds.
You eat the old cereal before you open a new box. ( I think my wife and kids have 30 boxes open.) Raising us later, Dad wouldn't allow sugared cereal in the house- a waste of money and the sugar is bad anyway.
You don't waste food. He taught us how to roll the toothpaste from the bottom, and how many squares of toilet paper to use per incident. His father was strict with TP, I think they got 3 squares....
He ate chicken several times a week and was lucky to have it. But when times got better, he stopped eating chicken, and didn't try it again for 5 years.
He also got so sick on grape wine one evening that next morning the grape jelly on his toast made him sick. He didn't eat grape jelly for a year, but this wasn't Depresson related...
Grandpa worked his way across the country during the Depression, and once had several teeth pulled without anesthetic (sic) because 5 dollars a tooth extra was too much to pay.
Anyway, the Depression touched me in many ways though I was not there. When I get my boys to eat all of their meal before going on to desert, when leftovers are served again at lunch- that's my Father speaking though they don't know it. They just think I'm mean. -
sucks2beme wrote: »When I want to know about the great depression, I go ask the people that were there.:D
My mom has way to much insight into it from a up close and
personal level. But the reality is their crash was just like our current crash
in many ways. A small number of insiders were creating maket swings in tech
stocks of the day. Many investors were tossing money in because it seemed
to be a never ending money ride. The stuff that happened at Enron, Worldcom
and Nortel were replays of past tricks. And of course, the result was the same.
The tarriffs were a bad idea that didn't help. The new deal maybe
wasn't all that great. History paints a different picture than reality.
FDR wasn't god. But like many events in history, the winners write the book.
That's cool to know.
This time around, I'm not sure how we'll get out of it. We don't have WWII this time to leave most of the industrial economy burnt to the ground making us the winners and #1 Lender nation because we were still standing. The rest of the world had to buy "Made In America". We were the only one left. -
Maybe WWlll (war over Islam) will arrive in time.
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Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it George Santaya
What we are going threw now is very similar to what we went through during the Depression.
Government did create the Depression in this way: Herbert Hoover believed that the answer to the economic crises of the that era was to give more and more support to business. I'm simplifying it, because I don't want to take up too much space. You'll just have to research it if you really want to know.
Does anyone here know what a plutocracy is? How about Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis? Look that up too.
Having a middle class does not occur naturally. It is achieved through policy and the people's demand for it. Some people will spin that as "socialism". To quote Louis Brandeis, "We can
Forget it...If you have the intellectual curiosity to look it up, please do. -
That's nice and I'm glad your soft spot for China comes out again but the article wasn't about China or the world. It was about the U.S. last I checked, we still weren't China.
Not really a soft spot. I just wonder how one disentangles the U.S. economy from what has happened and continues to tether the U.S. to China among other countries. Globalization is part of the American equation. All one has to do is refer to said article's own realization that the 70s were a turning point? Historically..what was happening around then.....quite a lot 'globally'?
Wages and labor are non-local and in FLUX. China holds 2 trillion+ in American debt. Just about every U.S. company has production facilities there? Not to disagree, but last time I looked most things on the shelf in the U.S. are Chinese--how can that have NO effect on the American middle-class? A vast transfer of wealth of sorts is occurring globally? Europe is also caught up in that.
I guess what I'm saying is that there ARE no real BOUNDARIES anymore. So the article is NOT just about the U.S. Nothing is simply local in this new Economy. The interconnections boggle the mind. At least my mind that is.
For a read on my point of view the first Chapter of Eric Wolf's book Europe and the People Without History pretty much sums it up. In essence, national economies are 'illusory' and have been so for a long time; the world is not made up of bounded nation states but processes and transactions that link them to each other endlessly, etc.
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