SDA2B SPL Measurements

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Comments

  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited September 2010
    Face wrote: »
    That is an awful idea.

    Obviously :D but the weight of empirical evidence isn't the end all be all either.

    As a stupid example, the Speed Limit was 55, so that's how fast the driver was traveling, a perfect sustained 55 mph. Was that the right answer? In fog with 20' visibility? In an ambulance with a patient bleeding out?

    You need other input the speedometer doesn't measure.
    VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
    TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
    Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
    PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
    Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
    NAD SS rigs w/mods
    GIK panels
  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited September 2010
    but I've personally gained a strong sense that empirical data is what he values most ...
    As does the likes of Paul Barton,Kevin Voekes,Joe D'Appolito and Michael Kelly.....
  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited September 2010
    FTGV wrote: »
    Both are great little drivers with a very clean and detailed sounding midband.The biggest difference I found was that I'm able to get a bit more level out of the ZA14 especially with bass heavy content( even though the stated xmax is only slightly greater). My 55-3870's seemed to ran out of excursion much sooner,maybe they were out of spec?I would think it shouldn't be an issue for your CC with having duals and it's likely to be hi pass filtered.
    Yes, I high-pass them at 60Hz (or 80Hz, depending on my mood). Honestly, I don't watch movies at high SPL. I also love old movies, which are often mono with no content below 100Hz :(
    FTGV wrote: »
    If tweeters resonance is low enough then maybe moving the xover point lower( and increasing the slope) would help.?
    That is one approach (probably one of the few sensible ones), but then power handling becomes an even more serious issue than before. I think a 4th-order high-pass would be needed if pushing the tweeter lower. But to be honest, the dimensional woofer confuses me a bit and leaves some uncertainty with respect to measurement. More importantly, I've got a backlog of designs to work on.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited September 2010
    I have no doubt 20+ year old speakers can be improved. The question is: how much improvement before the original character of the speaker is lost?

    I used to own LSi 9's; great speaker but not without it's faults. To me there was too much upper midbass hump. Some here have reworked the x-overs with same value but different types of caps and resistors. It's said to get rid of the midbass warmth. To me that would be a worthy mod.

    You can get the SDA's to change character a little bit by using different brands/types of caps (same value as the original), by deleting the poly switch and using Mills wirewound non-inductive resitors rather than the sandcast originals. Also the RD0 silk tweets are much smoother and have no resonance like the sl2000.

    You can take those ideas to the bank.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited September 2010
    No, just as his measurements don't tell us the whole story.

    Distortion, phase, power response, polar graphs tell much of it, but not everything.

    As for flatting the 2B's FR, instead of changing the slopes and possible introducing more issues, how about toying around with a Zobel?
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited September 2010
    Face wrote: »
    As for flatting the 2B's FR, instead of changing the slopes and possible introducing more issues, how about toying around with a Zobel?
    Honestly, to move forward and deal with the problem I'd need to measure the in-box responses of the mid-woofer and tweeter. On one hand that sounds intriguing, but honestly I shouldn't let myself get sucked in ...
  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited September 2010
    Zobels may help ,as might an adjustment to the value of the series cap(12uf) in the hi pass section and or the shunt cap in the low section.
  • Conradicles
    Conradicles Posts: 6,081
    edited September 2010
    They still sound mighty good for ~ $200 - $250 floor standing speakers even bone stock. I live mine, and they make wonderful H/T speakers as well. Thanks for all of the positive comments!
  • wayne3burk
    wayne3burk Posts: 939
    edited September 2010
    jcandy wrote: »
    You guys seem awfully touchy. Its almost like a religious cult here.

    I guess you haven't drunk enough Kool-Aid yet...

    Honestly, I'm very impressed by your technical knowledge and your graphs. They're way over my head. I think that most members of the cult save the 3 or 4 who can engage in this discussion with you intelligently are mere lay-persons like myself who enjoy good music and the pursuit of next level of audio gear / fidelity.

    That being said, welcome to cult polk, thank you for coming...

    -- wayne --
    Yamaha RX-V2700, EMI 711As (front), RCA K-16 (rear), Magnavox Console (Center & TV Stand), Sony SMP-N200 media streamer, Dual 1249 TT =--- Sharp Aquas 60" LCD tellie
  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited September 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    The question is: how much improvement before the original character of the speaker is lost?
    That would certainly be a listener preference thing.Making the response more linear in the upper midrange around the crossover point will change their character, but some may not like the changes.
  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited September 2010
    wayne3burk wrote: »
    I guess you haven't drunk enough Kool-Aid yet...
    Did someone say Kool-Aid?where do I line up?:D
  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited September 2010
    wayne3burk wrote: »
    I guess you haven't drunk enough Kool-Aid yet...

    Honestly, I'm very impressed by your technical knowledge and your graphs. They're way over my head. I think that most members of the cult save the 3 or 4 who can engage in this discussion with you intelligently are mere lay-persons like myself who enjoy good music and the pursuit of next level of audio gear / fidelity.

    That being said, welcome to cult polk, thank you for coming...
    I appreciate the kind words. I will be happy to answer any questions, that is, if I can. I have no delusions of being some kind of guru; there are quite a few real "gurus" on the DIY forums (jbagby, jkrutke, johnk, geddes ... check out dlneubec) who are way, way, waaaay ahead of me. Still, I am doing my best to keep learning and this exercise with the SDAs was very rewarding in that sense. I hope the information come in useful, somehow.
  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited September 2010
    You gotta love the ignore feature.....I only wish that such a thing existed in real life.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited September 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Of course, because he said anyone past the age of 15 has very poor hearing. I assume he's older than 15 so he is missing as much, due to his hearing, as we are. So in that regard it really doesn't matter how it measures because we have awful hearing anyway :).
    I thought I would let this pass, which is a good rule-of-thumb for inane posts, but now I think it deserves a comment.

    That hearing is relatively poorer in adulthood than at the age of 10 to 15 is a well-known fact. My daughter can hear a 15kHz test tone, I cannot. I am however, not deaf. With that in mind, please explain again why it "doesn't matter" how a speaker measures.
  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited September 2010
    jcandy wrote: »
    I thought I would let this pass, which is a good rule-of-thumb for inane posts, but now I think it deserves a comment.

    That hearing is relatively poorer in adulthood than at the age of 10 to 15 is a well-known fact. My daughter can hear a 15kHz test tone, I cannot. I am however, not deaf. With that in mind, please explain again why it "doesn't matter" how a speaker measures.

    This is becoming inane.

    Measurements certainly matter. I've probably used too strong a tone, but unless I missed it, you have not once intimated that listening is even a secondary focus.

    It seems (to me at least) that you are seeking a perfect measurement, a holy grail graph, and forgetting to enjoy the music.

    I believe that's where we got off track.

    Ease in and enjoy the music.

    I think you've gained an incredible amount of design intelligence somewhere along the way and we can benefit, but it's a two way street.

    Peace
    VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
    TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
    Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
    PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
    Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
    NAD SS rigs w/mods
    GIK panels
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited September 2010
    jcandy wrote: »

    That hearing is relatively poorer in adulthood than at the age of 10 to 15 is a well-known fact.

    Agreed
    jcandy wrote: »
    I am however, not deaf.

    Neither am I although you insinuated I was in the earlier post.
    jcandy wrote: »
    With that in mind, please explain again why it "doesn't matter" how a speaker measures.

    It was a sarcastic comment (If our hearing is so poor after age 15 it doesn't matter how it measures because we can't hear it --sarcasm off), I guess the sarcasm was lost because I didn't use one of these
    > :rolleyes:

    :rolleyes:

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • wayne3burk
    wayne3burk Posts: 939
    edited September 2010
    jcandy wrote: »
    I appreciate the kind words. I will be happy to answer any questions, that is, if I can. I have no delusions of being some kind of guru; there are quite a few real "gurus" on the DIY forums (jbagby, jkrutke, johnk, geddes ... check out dlneubec) who are way, way, waaaay ahead of me. Still, I am doing my best to keep learning and this exercise with the SDAs was very rewarding in that sense. I hope the information come in useful, somehow.

    I do check out DIY forums for speakers... there's one i find particularly interesting as someone on here posted their open baffle speaker project. Obviously there is more to speaker design than **** drivers into a box. For me it's nice to have a baseline system and swap out speakers and "hear" the difference. In sensitivity, hi, midrange, and bass response. etc, etc. The problem is of course is that i dont have access to unlimited choices of speakers, and i have the limiting factors of my other equipment, cables and accessories.

    That being said, the most enjoyable thing about music to me is the music itself. I believe that your brain fills in what your audio equipment lacks, almost down to the point that if you owned nothing else a clock-radio would sound just fine.

    48 posts and counting -- 52 to go and you can sell your sda's on here :)

    j/k

    -- wayne --
    Yamaha RX-V2700, EMI 711As (front), RCA K-16 (rear), Magnavox Console (Center & TV Stand), Sony SMP-N200 media streamer, Dual 1249 TT =--- Sharp Aquas 60" LCD tellie
  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited September 2010
    wayne3burk wrote: »
    I believe that your brain fills in what your audio equipment lacks, almost down to the point that if you owned nothing else a clock-radio would sound just fine.
    Odd as it may sound on an audio forum, there's probably a lot of truth to that. What I generally experience, though, is what I call the "ratchet effect". There are ratchet effects in beer, wine and audio. You will be often happy with beer, wine and audio, no matter how bad the taste/sound. But as soon as one starts drinking the good stuff, its hard to regress.
    wayne3burk wrote: »
    48 posts and counting -- 52 to go and you can sell your sda's on here :)
    I really hadn't been planning that. What am doing is taking photos of a ton of audio gear that I need to say goodbye to :mad: (homes are small in California), and I will make a website documenting everything. I may post a link to the site here, but will certainly post the link elsewhere. The gear will include some DIY stuff, too. I had envisioned local buyers who will come listen before buying.
  • parnold
    parnold Posts: 23
    edited January 2013
    Just wanted to bump this awesome thread, I know it's over 2 years old.

    I'm a huge fan of measurements and my SDA-2B's, does anyone else know of Freq Response graphs available for them?

    Thanks for measuring them jcandy!

    Thanks