Next step for better performance?

cokewithvanilla

Right now, I am getting back into audio... I just got a preamp and speakers to add to my old amp. I want to kind of plan out my next steps for improving sound. It would be nice to know the weakest link in my system, as well as upgrade options.

Speakers: Monitor Audio Silver 8i
Preamp: Aragon 24k w/ Isolated Power Supply
Amp: Adcom GFA-5800
Interconnects: Signal Cable
Speaker cable: Axiom 12ga
Source: Iphone

I am considering a few things. I could upgrade the caps in the speakers, make some DIY silver ic's, get a cheapish power conditioner, or sell the adcom and make a modest upgrade.

Aside from my source, which would be a very expensive upgrade, what is the weakest link? are there any cheap upgrades that will make improvements?

Thanks.

skipf

Other than your source, I see no cheap upgrades you could make. Not familiar with your speakers, but new speakers won't be cheap. The MP3 player is in my opinion your weakest link in your system, but if you are happy with it, that's all that matters.

cokewithvanilla

I'm not necessarily happy with it, but I require a digital media player as I do not own any cd's/tapes/records/ect. All my music is digital. I would prefer a digital source, but that would require a DAC at the very least.

steveinaz

Without a doubt--your source needs to be replaced or at least run thru a DAC with lossless audio codec(s).

tcrossma

I don't see the need to go much further while using the iPhone as a source, or at the very least adding a DAC to it. There are ways to make a digital front-end work very well, but an iPhone by itself is not one of them, IMO.

And you don't have to spend a ton to get a decent DAC. There are many that have been mentioned on this forum before that are quite affordable.

JAC

Yep, the DAC is the VERY weak link. You're relying on the dac in the iPHONE.

JAC

cokewithvanilla wrote: »

I'm not necessarily happy with it, but I require a digital media player as I do not own any cd's/tapes/records/ect. All my music is digital. I would prefer a digital source, but that would require a DAC at the very least.

Oooops:o if I would have read closer I would have seen you nailed it.

doctor r

Aquire a DAC and upgrade to a computer based music server with lossless files as aposed to MP3 compression. This will yield the greatest improvement using your present equipment. The source is the most important part of a system IMO and this needs to be your present focus.

Rick

heiney9

Source. Time to step it up and get something like this and a stand alone dac.

http://www.logitech.com/en-us/speakers-audio/wireless-music-systems/devices/5745?WT.ac=psE|7340

http://www.welbornelabs.com/squeeze.htm

H9

cokewithvanilla

ah, crap. hah. It seems as if everyone feels the same way. I do use lossless on my phone, but I still rely on it's dac.

Something like a Wadia Transport might help, but that still requires a dac. Kinda why I didn't wanna venture into that direction.

I can see how a dac will be the most helpful thing I could do. Simply adding the ability to go digital is a lot. If I was going to do that, I would probably want it to be able to decode DD and DTS (and convert it to 2.0) as well, simply for the ability to play movies. Anything come to mind?


edit: out of curiosity, how would you compare my speakers, preamp, amp (like best to worst)?

sm88

Then what you need is a processor with decent 2 channel playback. You can pick up an Anthem AVM 20 v2.21 or a Sunfire Theater Grande III for around $450-500, between which I've read the Anthem to be superior.

For a cheaper alternative, though not nearly as good in my opinion, an Outlaw 950 will run you around 200 or an Outlaw 990 around 300-400.

These will also act as your preamp. You can't use your Aragon to preamp a home theater obviously, but you can sell it to help fun the processor.

e: I've owned the AVM 20 and the Outlaw 950, the Outlaw 950 did not sound anywhere near as good as even a Parasound P/SP 1500 I also had for a while, despite the Parasound not having discrete channels or digital inputs. The Anthem was awesome but I switched focus to 2 channel and am saving HT for later

cokewithvanilla

sm88 wrote: »

Then what you need is a processor with decent 2 channel playback. You can pick up an Anthem AVM 20 v2.21 or a Sunfire Theater Grande III for around $450-500, between which I've read the Anthem to be superior.

For a cheaper alternative, though not nearly as good in my opinion, an Outlaw 950 will run you around 200 or an Outlaw 990 around 300-400.

How would these stack up to the aragon for 2 channel playback? I don't wanna sacrifice 2ch for movies, as I don't plan on watching many at all... in fact, I don't even have a tv hooked up.

heiney9

The Aragon is the better piece. I think sm88 doesn't quite get what your trying to do. Your source is your weak link and until you decide to spend a little money on a dac and a better delivery system you won't get much of the imporvement you seem to be looking for

H9

cokewithvanilla

heiney9 wrote: »

The Aragon is the better piece. I think sm88 doesn't quite get what your trying to do. Your source is your weak link and until you decide to spend a little money on a dac and a better delivery system you won't get much of the imporvement you seem to be looking for

H9

Ok, so basicAlly, until I upgrade my source, minor tweaks (caps, cables, connection compound or whatever) will not make much of a difference? It would be a matter of tryin to pull out detail that just isn't there?

sm88

heiney9 wrote: »

The Aragon is the better piece. I think sm88 doesn't quite get what your trying to do. Your source is your weak link and until you decide to spend a little money on a dac and a better delivery system you won't get much of the imporvement you seem to be looking for

H9

He said he wanted a DAC with home theater processing for when he wants to watch movies, which would be a processor. The Aragon would likely sound better for two channel, though it is an older unit it is well regarded, but you would only be able do to 2 channel audio with a standalone DAC. A processor includes a DAC and Preamp, and they're capable of fairly good quality if you get the right one. There are lots of options

e: Essentially, a processor would be about expanding your system, while a strict DAC would be a bigger improvement to the 2 channel rig

FTGV

cokewithvanilla wrote: »

I can see how a dac will be the most helpful thing I could do. Simply adding the ability to go digital is a lot. If I was going to do that, I would probably want it to be able to decode DD and DTS (and convert it to 2.0) as well, simply for the ability to play movies. Anything come to mind?

A 2 ch. DAC will only accept PCM data,and will not decode the DD and DTS data streams.For that you'll need a pre/pro or just use the analog outputs of a DVD/BR player.

VR3

Ill go ahead and say it since no one else will...

While the source is an issue, I would put that amp on a close second.

sm88

Zero wrote: »

Wait wait.. your source is an Iphone? Thats like buying a sports car and then feeding it Kool-Aid. Ok, so that was a poor analogy, but you get what I'm saying.

For goodness sakes, get a better source, like a PC with a professional audio card (E-Mu, Lynx, etc...), a music server, a USB DAC for your laptop/desktop,.. freaking SOMETHING other than a phone.

Second, if you love your Monitor Audio's...ditch both the Aragon pre and the Adcom amp. Use that money to buy yourself a good tube integrated amp. Aragon and Adcom on a set of Monitor Audio's? With an iphone as a source? Ouch. Thats some serious treble presence right there...

If you're using an outboard DAC which it seems is the intent, i'd save the money and just get a cheaper sound card that features optical out. No point in spending a lot of money on a sound card with an expensive DAC if you'll be bypassing it via optical. My sound card is $20 shipped. PPA 1424V if you'd like to look it up, more expensive doesn't always mean better, especially it's just passing the information along.

I say optical over spdif because it breaks the electrical connection between the noisy internals of a computer and the rest of your system. No ground loops or other hums when using it, which is a huge, huge plus.

Adcom amps are good for the price they command and I agree with Zero, I found the one I owned to be harsh and bright. I think that's something to solve further down the line though, a good step up without breaking the bank is Parasound.

dkg999

I would get a pc and good storage/backup so you can store music in a lossless format. Once you've got your music source improved you can go with any level of USB DAC to get it into your system. I'm using a $130 Musiland 02 US USB DAC in my pc system and it's really not too bad for the price point. A good tubed integrated like the Cayin EL34 or KT88 based integrateds would make those Monitor Audio speakers smooth out and sing.

cokewithvanilla

sm88 wrote: »

No point in spending a lot of money on a sound card with an expensive DAC if you'll be bypassing it via optical.

Already have spdif out on my computer. I just need a cheap DAC.

dkg999 wrote: »

I would get a pc and good storage/backup so you can store music in a lossless format.

have 2tb of storage on my computer, all music is lossless. The iphone is 32 gig and also has all lossless.

Zero wrote: »

ditch both the Aragon pre and the Adcom amp.

Very good info. Both are in good condition, what do you think I could sell them for? I really don't want tubes... if I were gonna go SS again, what would be better without breaking the bank?

sm88

cokewithvanilla wrote: »

Already have spdif out on my computer. I just need a cheap DAC.



have 2tb of storage on my computer, all music is lossless. The iphone is 32 gig and also has all lossless.




Very good info. Both are in good condition, what do you think I could sell them for? I really don't want tubes... if I were gonna go SS again, what would be better without breaking the bank?

$400 or so would be my guess. Look for a step up in quality, not wattage; though the Adcom had a lot of power unless you have very inefficient speakers you likely won't need more than 100w. Remember that 210w is only twice as loud as 30w.

Were you to buy something in the same price range as your amplifier, you can look into Parasound offerings (in fact there is a Parasound HCA-2200II for 550 right now, that one is high power and much better quality). Alternatively, there is an Anthem MCA20 for sale as well, which is another very good name and powerful amplifier. I'm searching for a similar upgrade, to a good 2 channel amp, and Bryston has been a consideration as well, but they can be expensive. My issue is that I need high power units due to very low efficiency speakers, so I have to spend a bit more.

The DAC i've personally been looking at is the Cambridge dacmagic, it's only 2 channel as it is not a processor but you can pick one up for around $300.

heiney9

The amp is in no way his issue at this point the 5800 is a very nice amp. It's ludicris to suggest he replace it at this point.

Source, source, source

Get a better Source

H9

heiney9

cokewithvanilla wrote: »

Already have spdif out on my computer. I just need a cheap DAC.



have 2tb of storage on my computer, all music is lossless. The iphone is 32 gig and also has all lossless.




Very good info. Both are in good condition, what do you think I could sell them for? I really don't want tubes... if I were gonna go SS again, what would be better without breaking the bank?

A cheap dac shouldn't be your goal, an nice souding unit within your budget should be your goal.

In my strong opinion you're pissing in the wind replacing your amp and pre-amp and leaving your iPhone in place as the source. I wouldn;t even waste the time getting a dac for the iPhone, but explore a lossless computer based setup with an outboard dac.

After you get that squared away then start looking at tubes or upgrading the pre and amp although as far as solid state units go, those are very good so you mught have to spend a lot more ot get more.

H9

sm88

heiney9 wrote: »

The amp is in no way his issue at this point the 5800 is a very nice amp. It's ludicris to suggest he replace it at this point.

Source, source, source

Get a better Source

H9

I agree actually, not suggesting he replace it until later on, just answering his question for now. Priority should likely be:

Source (PC is fine w/ spdif out, iPhone is a NO WAY unless you can output it digitally via some sort of dock)
DAC
Preamp
Amp
Speakers
Cables

e: Heiney he did mention he has a computer with spdif out and lossless files

dhart86

coke,
I may have the perfect interim solution. I have an external sound card with a Burr-Brown Dac built into it. It has a USB input (dac makes it jitter-free) and an spdif (coaxial) output so that it can be connected to your pre-amp. It seriously upgrades the sound cards on laptops PC or any USB source. You could even go a step further and connect to an outboard dac at a later time. It's made by Lite Audio same people that make the Lite Audio Dac-Ah and Dac 60. Pm me if you are interested in aquiring one or for more information. I have a couple of them.

cokewithvanilla

dhart86 wrote: »

coke,
I may have the perfect interim solution. I have an external sound card with a Burr-Brown Dac built into it. It has a USB input (dac makes it jitter-free) and an spdif (coaxial) output so that it can be connected to your pre-amp.

My preamp does not have a digital in, wouldn't I need this?

thsmith

I think someone on here has a DAC 1 for sell. If you must stick with digital music then you need a great DAC and Digital calble like the KK D-60.

Besides my Rotel CDP I use a WDTV that plays FLAC feeding my PS Audio DLIII.

COmpressed MP3 is going to sound bad no matter the source and DAC

cokewithvanilla

thsmith wrote: »

I think someone on here has a DAC 1 for sell. If you must stick with digital music then you need a great DAC and Digital calble like the KK D-60.

Yikes, those are worth more than my whole setup combined

treitz3

Man, I'll be honest with you. Save up for a used universal player and go start purchasing some physical media. You'd be amazed at how good your rig can sound with an awesome SACD. You can't make chicken soup out of chicken ****.

cokewithvanilla

treitz3 wrote: »

Man, I'll be honest with you. Save up for a used universal player and go start purchasing some physical media. You'd be amazed at how good your rig can sound with an awesome SACD. You can't make chicken soup out of chicken ****.

I dunno. I believe that digital media can sound better than CD's. CD's have digital media on them, so, in my opinion, the only thing you are doing with a CD is adding a whole set of problems (reading the media).

concealer404

cokewithvanilla wrote: »

I dunno. I believe that digital media can sound better than CD's. CD's have digital media on them, so, in my opinion, the only thing you are doing with a CD is adding a whole set of problems (reading the media).

You're still "reading the media" with lossless files, too. No change there.